I have an 18 month old collie she is very nervous and is showing signs of fear aggresion today she snapped at a child who has been to my house befor I am devestated and naturally I want to do whats best the child wasnt even near the dog she was talking to my daughter with her back to the dog I am unsure if a behaviourist can help her now or if its to late

Oh what a predicament,Have you spoken to a behaviourist yet,this could be a tricky one,I'm sure there is somebody on CD who's is a dog trainer but can't remember who it is,get your vet to recommend somebody.meanwhile keep a close eye,good luck,sandra.

Yes, i agree, get your vet to recommend a reputable and experienced behaviourist.....don't be tempted to get one out the phone book or similar as there are many out there now who just do one short behavioural course and have little hands on experience.

Good luck

Lindsay

There is def hope (always hope with most dogs, so long as they are still breathing ;)) but ALWAYS deal with it through a registered behaviourist (either through the APDT for a trainer with experience in behavioural issues, or a member of the UKRCB or APBC which are the registers for Canine Behaviourists and Pet behaviour counsellors respectively).  As Lyndsay says, there are plenty out there nowadays who will take your money but do not have the relevant hands on experience (some don't even own a dog........)

thanks for your help she has an appointment with a vet approved behaviourist tomorrow I have spoken to her and she seems very hopefull thanks for you help

i hate to be so blunt and its easy for me to say as she's not my dog and you probably love her very much but..... i would rehome her to a family without children for her sake because if she does bite you might have to consider having her pts which would be a very hard decision to make ,some dogs are good with children some are very bad these need to be in a home with no children around,you will never trust her 100% again and she's going to be around for a good few years do you really want to have eyes in the back of your head when theres children around would'nt you rather have a dog which you can trust?

I agree with Jackie r. I know it's difficult but the same thing happened to me 2 months ago. Our dog decided to take a piece of my 2 year old toddlers face. There was no warning, no growl, he just lunged straight for her. Has I not been where I was (about 4 inches away) she would have been terribly injured.
There was no way I could have trusted him again after that, no amount of behavioural training (for him and us) would have put my mind at rest.
We rehomed him. He's happy, there are no children in his new home, we miss him as he was before that day, but as much as I loved him I am first and foremost a mother to my kids.

thats awful sue! i hope your little one has'nt been too scarred,any dog that has gone for  a child for no reason should be rehomed away from children, anyone who does'nt agree should'nt have a dog ,a behavourist can do nothing with an unpredictable dog it has a mind of its own!

The time when a dog goes for a person 'for no reason' is the day it should be destroyed as there is almost certainly a severe medical problem - a dog will rarely go for a person (adult or child) for 'no reason' - it's just that humans don't always see the reason, or recognise the 'warning signs' which can vary from dog to dog depending on its past experiences..........  Teach yourself and your children to respect and recongise the warning signs and you do NOT need to rehome your dog.

digger-maglaura said the child was'nt near the dog and actually had her back to it , the dog has a huge problem for whatever reason and the children have to be put first, if my child was bitten by a dog that had shown warning signs such as this i would kick the owners a***! the dog needs to be REHOMED!! some behavourists think they can cure every problem ,a dog is equipped to do a human a lot of damage and a family with children should'nt take any risks with an agressive dog!

I didn't read anything in the op's message to indicate this was a family *with* children - the child was visiting the house........  For whatever reason this dog has picked up a fear - why pass the problem on to somebody else (who may not get the message that they have a fear biter) why not deal with it yourself with proper assistance?  Many behaviourists *can* turn around a dog - and most that are lost causes have severe medical problems.  I believe it's unfair to uproot a dog when all it takes is a little guidance - far too easy these days to say 'this one doesn't work like I wanted it to, let's get a new one......'

i quote " the child was talking to my daughter" thats a bit of a clue, being agressive is different from a behaviour problem such as being destructive which can be turned around,if you would take a chance with a dog biting a child then you should'nt have a dog ,the dog is obviously not happy around children so do it a favour and rehome it into a home with no children with the help of rescue society who vet the homes first, then the dogs happy and the family's happy whats wrong with that? this dog did'nt work out with this family its a shame but it happens.

but we don't know that the 'daughter' is a child - I am my mother's daughter, but I'm not a child........

Thanks Jackie, she's fine - a tiny scar under her eye, but like I said if i'd been any further away I fear it could have been her eye.
It broke my heart (and the other kids) to let him go,but I know it was the right thing to do. We had him checked at the vets and he tried to bite her too (usually loved her) it took him days to settle down, and 3 weeks before he was rehomed.

Anyway, I hope this helps with the original problem! Megan still loves dogs - tougher than me she is!

I think that you have done the right thing. I learnt a very hard lesson many years ago, I homed a Weimeraner boy at 15months, 1st mistake, he came from a home with children and I was told he loved children, it soon became apparent that 'he actually hated them'  He became aggressive towards mine but I coped for a long time, I had eyes in the back of my head and it was awful realy but I was determined not to let this dog down. But one day he was in the garden and I saw him shaking and tossing something, I ran outside to find him ripping the throat out of the neighbours Border Collie who had strayed into our garden. He had so much strength that the poor dog looked like a teddy bear being tossed in the air. It was one of the worst days of my life and I would never give a dog a second chance now, it was terrible for everyone concerned but what if a child had climbed the fence to fetch a ball. It turned out that the original owner had been in contact with Weimeraner rescue but put money above everything else and sold him to me knowing full well that I had children. He also attacked the vet but he did not come out of the surgery.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jackie and  most things can be cured but once a dog has bitten they will often do it again and even if the people don't have children themselves it is only a very few isolated people that never have a young person visit.

I have children of my own Tula has never bitten any of them she was surrounded buy lots of people and although she lunged at the child she didnt bite I feel she was very scared and although I desperatly want to help her if I dont get the help I think she need I will have her pts as I wouldnt pass this on to anyone else

I did miss the signs she was scared she was cowering ears back and with all the noise I couldnt tell if she was growling I should say she is an exellent dog indoors and is well behaved and well trained she is nervous of strangers and doesnt like other dogs

Sorry if i missed it, but how is the dog with your daughter? (assuming the daugher isn't an adult :) ) If she is OK with her then there is hope.....you did mention "with all the noise....." not sure what was happening but as yousay the dog was showing fear and there was lots going on and it was difficult to keep an eye on her.....?

It does sound as if the dog wasn't socialised too well when younger.... this is so important! Or perhpaps her breeding makes her nervous. I would seek professional advice as you are doing, and take it from there.....we on this board can't make real judgements as we can't see the dog, environement etc..... :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

thanks lyndsay
she is a border collie so apparently they are nervous she is fine with my daughter who is just 5 she was socialised as a puppy her problem started about 4 months ago out of no where she started being scared of everyone she doesnt know she even growled at my 25 yearold son who had come to visit she hasnt seen him for nearly a year at home she is loving and well behaved unless some one else comes in then she goes mad she doesnt like other dogs at all. I feel I have let her down she is a very sweet dog who sufferes from nervous aggresion and I should have known that a house full of kids would upset her she see the behaviour therepist next tuesday I will take it from there I just hope I dont have to pts it would break the kids hearts and mine

i am sorry to say but your playing with fire this dog is a breath away from biting someone ,are you going to wait until she does? lets hope its not someone outside of the family because they won't be so understanding when they come to sue you! why have you waited so long to do something about it if it started 4 mths ago if she had already growled at your son why were'nt you being extra careful while having a houseful of children ,do you think the therapist is going to wave a magic wand the real training lies with you , you should have sought help when it first started! sorry to be so blunt but i speak as i find and i am not going to beat around the bush i have probably offended you but this is a serious issue!

Crikey

Cool it down a bit Jacki, this lady came on here for advise.

Obviously she has to weigh up all the possibilities and what the outcome for each possibility might be.

I don't think in the middle of a stressful situation does she need quite such plain speaking as you are giving. It is obvious that the whole family love the dog, and although I agree that pts might be the answer, it takes time to come to terms with that.

My advise to her would be to see the behavourist, with whom she has an appointment, and in the meantime, to be very aware of the situations that make the dog nervous and avoid putting the dog into those situations.

Jackie - calm down - the dog has NOT bitten ANYONE - she's shown very good bite control under what sounds like very stresful conditions for a sensitive breed like a collie - now the owner is aware and taking measures to remedy the situation there is NO reason why this should end in tragedy.  Good luck to you OP - please let us know how it goes :)

the dog should not be pts at this stage i have not suggested that for one moment it needs to be in a home where the owner has time to put the work in ,this dog has been like it for 4 months and nothing was done? digger- your far too relaxed about what could be a tragic situation i would'nt like to see anyone get bitten by this dog ,so in your opinion when would it be appropriate to rehome this dog after the bite i suppose?

I could not pass this dog on to anyone else risking there saftey untill I am sure whether she can be helped she is well trained and although this has been going on for alomost 4 months she hasnt been this bad it was mainly growling and hiding. at home she is surrounded by people all day and is perfect in every way with people she knows and although I hadnt sought profesional help i have been looking up this problem and trying what was suggested. I will not put anyone else at risk from my dog and she will be shut away if I have visitors and muzzled when we go out untill I have all the facts then I will make a decision based on them. I have had dogs befor and this is the first time I have encountered this problem I am not taking this lightly I have a house full of children and if I thought for one minute she was a danger to them she would have been put to sleep she is a totaly different dog when she is not scared she is gentle and loyal. I am not making excuses for her what she did was terrible and thankfully no one was hurt but I miss read the signs and I didnt realise she was so distressed I wont make that mistake again
thanks for your posting
Maggie

You might find reading "Mine! a guide to resource guarding in dogs" by Jean Donaldson a worthwhile book to read in conjunction with your behaviourist.

If she literally was OK until 4 months ago then there is a possibility the problem is based on a medical problem esp. if as you say she was socialised. Was she socialised lots out and about and did shemeet other kids, and were those meetings happy?

If she was showing fear before but it just escalated 4 months ago, then it may not be so simple but she may still be helped .... behaviourists can and do turn dogs around, but it does require huge commitment from the dog's family, and an understanding of management and risk.  The risk for some may be too great. Also of course there are dogs who cannot be helped but who can live with people who are aware of the problem. For example i know a man who has a rescue GSd, Fergus, and the dog hates all other dogs.....but he walks him at lunchtimes in a great open area where he can always see other dogs, and has trained in a veryhigh standard of obedience. So they manage and its' fine.

Similarly dogs can be kept in the country away from whatever stresses them (unless its cows :D ) and they can have a good life. Of course the down side is that there are so many dogs needing good homes.

I do wish you luck. If you are in any doubt as to the dog suddenly showing this behaviour, make sure the vet not only does a once over, but also does blood tests as this will reveal a lot more.

Lindsay

just a quick note to let you all know that things are looking good for tula she has been seeing some one about her behavior and it seem she may be over protective with us we have been given advice on what to do and with any luck she will be ok I also know she doesnt have a medical condition that caused this and that she still suffers from allergys so I guess we will just persiveer(sp) and make sure we dont put anyone in danger whilst we are retraining her it does seem as if she has pick up the wrong message from us thanks for your messages and I will post again and let you know if it works

Thanks for letting us know. Glad to hear that it looks as if you are all receiving the right kind of help!
Hope things continue to improve

Maglaura, im glad things are going ok.  Recently our bc bit my 3 yo daughter megan on the face ,just missing her eyes ,so i know how you feel .The only differance with pops is that shes food aggressive ,fine with everthing elce tho.anyway were rehoming her to a couple with no children that do agilty.We think thats best for us and poppy.Ihope it works out for you

hi dani watched your thread with great intrest was sorry that you have to rehome her but its best for you. I think tula would be almost impossible to rehome as she has a great fear of strangers when they are in close contact she growled at the specialist we are seeing for nearly a whole hour she is so nervous but she is totally different at home not that we didnt have problems but she is over them and things are looking good. Tula was food agresive but with lots of work we managed to work it out and things are fine now.
I wish you all the best and remember you have done the best thing. First and formost are your children I am sure the dog will be happy in her new home and as the specialist we have been seeing told us this type of dog needs to something to keep the brain active not just excersise thats why agility is so good we are going to see what we can do in that area although she is being taught lots of tricks for want of a better word to keep her occupied. Have a good Christmas and hope you find a dog to suit you
Maggie