My three year old chocolate lab pinched some chocolate icing about 6 weeks ago and the day after had a fit. Extremely frightened I took her to the vet and they checked her over. Said she looked perfectly fit and healthy but kept her in under observation. Subsequently she has been fine. Eating, drinking, going for long walks etc. everything a young lab likes to do. This morning she had another one, completely out of the blue. Hadn't been near any chocolate! Her fit lasted about 7-8 minutes and she looked terrified. Went completely stiff, dribbling, eyes wide and scared. Went to the vets after she had calmed down and he took bloods. Just had the results that nothing untoward is showing, liver, kidneys - fine and no inheriant problem. He said he can only assume it can be epilepsy. Could they be just isolated fits or is this the start of a long term problem. Can anyone help me? I need more information. She also came into season this morning and I was going to breed her this season but I can only assume that is now not possible. Please let me know your views and experiences.

linda

I'm sorry to say it does sound very much like it. My old Bethany used to fit at around 6 week intervals. Has your vet perscribed any medication? I managed Beth without throughout her life until her death a few weeks short of 14 years old.

I must say that it appears very frightening when it first happens but you soon get use to the routine. The calmer you stay the calmer your dog will be.

Bethany lived a long happy life and enjoyed everything a non epileptic dog would do. Although I never pushed her, not wanting to stress her, I would not have missed living with her for anything. All My Labs have been special to me but there was only ever one "Big Bad Bethany"!!

Regards, John

Hi Linda,
As John says, it does sound very much like epilepsy. She is the right age for it to start - 18 months to 3 years-ish is the norm. Usually they happen when the animal is relaxed and drifting off to sleep.

First thing is - try not to panic! The fits will be far worse for you than they are for her. Keep calm during them and it will help her. Don't try to handle her during them - if she's thrashing around you can get hurt, and she is deeply unconscious anyway.

I doubt very much whether your vet will prescribe medication just yet - usually fits have to be much more frequent than that - in fact if medication gets the fits down to one a month or so, that is considered good control, and she's not as bad as that! I have one who went through a year of fitting very frequently - 4 or 5 a week, sometimes several a day, but she has gradually been weaned off her medication having not fitted for 6 years, and touch wood, is still well.

If she is epileptic, then breeding from her is out of the question, I'm afraid. Certainly not this season - if she doesn't have another fit for a year, you might be able to consider them isolated cases, but it's not something that you want to risk passing on.

Good luck - try not to worry too much. She should be able tolive a perfectly normal life despite this.
:)

Hi Linda

It certainly sounds like it might be epilepsy.  My advice to you is to ask your vet to do the regular run of blood tests etc.  The one thing he can't test for is Epilepsy, but the tests can rule evrything else out.

Also keep a diary.  Note in it the date obviously, the times of the seizures, the length of the seizure (and length of the post-ictal phase, and/or any pre-ictal signs you might have noticed [my bitch always used to lick her lips as if she was dry-mouthed and stare at the ceiling, that always heralded a seizure]), the nature of the seizures (stiff shuddering, disorientation etc.).  Note down anything you did differently that day (extra long walk, painting and decorating, family of friends visiting). Also note the moon-phase that day - i'm not joking, you'd be surprised how many epileptic dogs have seizures in phase with the moon, but often its only the owners who've kept diaries who can spot that! The diary is a brilliant way to try and work out any triggers.  My bitch was triggered by the moon, and by long car journeys. Also your vet will want to have a look at the dairy whenever you go in for a check up - don't rely on remembering all the little details, write them down!
Vets don't like to medicate too early with this.  They want to be sure they have the diagnosis correct.  Also they tend not to medicate until the seizures are getting out of control, i/e when they're becoming more regular than they were, and are getting less predictable.  The medications are usually phenobarbitol (Pb) or potassium bromide (KBr), or a combination of the two for dogs experiencing strong 'breakthough' seizures.  Vets tend to start dogs on the phenobarb and work their way from there.  Once your dog is on meds it is generally for life, but it does enable your dog to live a full life, so don't let the meds get you down if you need to start them.
Another trick I learnt is to always have Bach's Rescue Remedy to hand, and I mean always.  There was a bottle in the kitchen, in the lounge, in my partner's office, in both our cars, in the work pick-up and in my handbag.  That meant WHEREVER my dog was, Rescue Remedy was always close to hand. it is brilliant for helping them come out of a seizure, and can drastically reduce the time in post-ictal.
Another trick we learn't was a cold wet flanel and a bolw of ice-cream.  a cold wet flanel on the dogs head during a seizure (if it is safe to do so) can keep their temperature down (the forehead can get very hot and puffy during a seizure) and help soothe them during a seizure.  Contrary to other advice on here i suggest that if it is safe to do so you keep contact with your dog during a seizure.  Make the ground space safe for her to lie on, and keep a hand to her if you can.  She might not acknolwedge it but she'll be glad of your presence.  If you do get bitten, don't blame her, but try not to let that happen.  My dog always wanted contact and would climb on to my lap or curl around my feet almost seconds before she started seizing.
As for the ice cream, it is a great way to get the blood sugars quickly back up after a seizure, and is a great sign that she is coming out of the post-ictal phase.
For more advice go to www.k9epilepsy.com, and have a search around Yahoo for the k9epilepsy email group.  They're mostly American but they're all going through it as well.  You can get almost instant replies to any emails you submit, and help is often only an email away.  There are vets and researchers in the group, and they'll give you all the advice you need.  You'll often find, because they're specialists, they'll give you more informed answers than your own vet.  As I said before there's someone online almost 24 hrs a day, and they're great hand holders when your up at 3 in the morning clearing up vomit and soothing a post-ictal dog.

Hope I've helped some

caroline

Actually keeping a diary is a very good suggestion! I kept records of Bethany. From the records one fact stood out and that was that her fits went through a 6 week cycle! That was not to say that she would fit every 6 weeks though, sometimes she would miss and it would be 12 or even 18 weeks before it happened but it could still be traced back to the 6 week cycle!

She never fitted at times of stress, holidays and the like but would be very likely to fit very shortly after the times of stress disappeared. (holiday finished) She only fitted once in 13 years fitted when I was out.

You must take every dog as it comes. Some you need to keep clear of when they are having a turn. Bethany always wanted me near. She would always try to get to me and touch me. I could feel her getting ridged and up would come a front paw as she collapsed onto her other side. As long as I stayed with her, touching her and talking to her she would stay relatively calm.

Best wishes, John

Thank you for all your help.  Do any of you think it could be coincidence that her season started on the morning, hormone rush maybe which may have caused it?  The breeder who I brought her from says she thinks that it's too close to the chocolate incident and her season starting for the vet to say straight away that it's epilepsy.  The breeder said to leave it a year and if she hasn't had any more fits than it may be OK to breed her.  None of the dogs on either side of fudge's pedigree have had epilepsy or any puppies that have had it.  Seems too much like coincidence to me but then I am hopefull of breeding her one day!  Obviously wouldnt breed if I know for sure 100% that it is epilepsy.  The vet said he can only assume and that's not good enough for me!

Regards

Linda

It's a shame that it happened. Epilepsy is rarely an open and shut thing. We are all epileptic but with most our threshold is above the level of fitting. If a person or dog is close to the threshold then stress then a lone fit can be brought on. A dog belonging to an uncle of mine had one after swallowing a long piece of string. She never had another!

Only time will tell and at 3 years old you still have some of that left.

Best wishes, John

Her season could be a contributing factor.  We alway raised Paddy's medication to 45mg from 30mg when she was in season (until we got her spayed).  If we didn't do this she'd have a breakthrough seizure.  Our vet figured it was due to her hormone levels at this time.
But, as John said, every dog is different.  A diary ois the best way to decide if it was normal 'seziure' routine behaviour or if it was a one-off coincidence. 
It would be good idea to have her spayed anyway, if it is decided that epliepsy is the cause.  You need everything to become as 'samey' as possible, and seasons twice a year can cause all sorts of upset to her.
As for your breeders advice, please disregard it if you have ANY thoughts whatsoever that your dog has epilepsy.  Chances are your dog's epilepsy (if she has it) is idiopathic and is not hereditary.  Chances are she won't pass the condition on to her puppies. Chances are she might not have another seizure for another 12 months BUT, the huge changes in her, hormonally or otherwise, during pregnancy, birth and lactation, could be the trigger to push her into the Grand Mal cluster to end all.  Its just not a risk worth taking!  Also, sorry to be such a doom merchant.  Just because she doesn't have a seizure for 12 months doesn't mean she might not be epileptic.  My bitch had her first seizure at 18months of age. i thought she'd injured her back and was paralysed.  By the time I found my mobile and dialled the vet she'd snapped out of it and was back to normal.  I informed my vet anyway and carried on with life.  She didn't have another seizure for 18 months, again it caught me by surprise.  I still didn't know it could be epilepsy.  After that it was 12 months, then 9 months, then 6 months, then 3 months.  Finally when it turned into a monthly occurence my vet put her on the meds.  The meds were adjusted for a year or so until we found the right dosing level.  Now she's on 30mg PB/day and hasn't had a seizure for nearly two years.

Caroline

That's the one bit I do disagree with you on Caroline. :) You are right that in most breeds there is no hereditary link but in Labradors, Goldens and GSD's it has been proven that they can very likely have a hereditary component. Nothing is certain but on the balance of probabilities. . . . . . . . .

Best wishes, John

Sorry John

I'm not sure what you mean?  Which bit of my post do you disagree with?

Not trying to start a row, just genuinely confused ;o))

Caroline xxx

Hi Caroline :)
The bit I was disagreeing with (but of course your view is just as possible as mine) was:-

<<Chances are your dog's epilepsy (if she has it) is idiopathic and is not hereditary>>

There are very few breeds where epilepsy has been proven to be hereditary but unfortunately Labradors, Golden's and GSD's have been found to have a hereditary link. Of course Epilepsy can be brought on by a number of things. As I said, years ago my uncle's dog swallowed a long length of string which she could not pass. She fitted but after the string was removed never fitted again. Again, poisons such as rat poison can bring on epilepsy as can accidents. A bang on the head for one. Even a heart condition could do it and of course, in these cases it would not be hereditary and from the point of view of breeding could not be passed on. Whether the stress of breeding would do the bitch any good is a different matter altogether. Certainly in some of these cases I would think there would be an unacceptable risk to the bitch.

In this particular case there does not seem to have been any accident, just the chocolate incident and the start of the season. For that reason, unless there is something we don't know, my guess, (and of course it is only a guess,) is that it quite possibly is in this case, hereditary.

Best wishes, John

Hi John

I do understand totally what you are trying to say.  But if it was  hereditary wouldn't the breeder have 'fessed up to this?  I guess i expect all breeders to be scrupulously honest.
As you say in a lot of cases it can be brought on by accidents or trauma, but as it cannot be proved that the incident actually was the cause, then the epilepsy is classed as 'idiopathic'.  My bitch had trouble coming out of a general anaesthetic at 10 months of age, her first seizure was 8 months later.  We believe (my vet included) that this was the possible cause but there's no way of proving it. My bitch was the fifth generation of a line of terriers I had bred, but none of the other offspring had shown any sign.  However my vet advised that he couldn't give a 100% guarantee that she wouldn't pass it on, but also that the hormonal effects before, during and after would probably cause allsorts.  As you have said before, different things can trigger it in different dogs.  Other dogs have trouble coming out of anaesthetic, but don't go on to be epileptic.

I wasn't trying to say which type of epilepsy her dog 'might' have, but I'm sorry if any confusion was caused.  However I understand the list of possible 'hereditary' breeds is constantly growing too.  You hear so often now, people saying that "the condition is common in so-and-so breed", and i think it is becoming more so.

Caroline

Hi Caroline.
As you know, an epileptic fit normally occurs when the dog is relaxed. If a bitch is kennelled then it could happen that the breeder might not know. This is what happened in the case of my Beth's dam. Again, it is possible for the bitch to carry it but not to actually ever fit. Mated to another carrier and out it comes. This, as no doubt as you know, is where problems suddenly occur with so many heredity conditions.

A friend of mine had an epileptic GSD. The dog always slept in the hallway outside her bedroom door. The first she knew of it was when the dog happened to lay leaning against the door and the banging on the door as the dog shook. The dog never ever fitted during the waking hour's right until the last year or so of its life!

Best wishes, John