I can't believe what I'm reading on this thread. 
It's simple enough - RESPONSIBLE owners spey and neuter if they're not breeding from them.
Coat condition in spaniels...hmm - which is more important - a frizzy coat, or a dog that lives a long healthy life without making more pups to go into rescue, without getting pyo, and without getting cancer.  I know which I would chose!
And as for the dog staying puppy-like - you have no evidence to show this is due to speying - how do you know they wouldn't have stayed puppy-like if they hadn't been speyed? 
And Brainless - perhaps you could learn some tact rather than tell someone who's just found out their dogs dying that it's their fault!  I'm sorry to be rude, but obviously you're not!

You can be just as tactless, Lisa! ;)

According to you, anybody who keeps their bitch entire, takes care of her during her seasons, ensuring she doesn't wander, and has her live a healthy life till well into her teens with no pyometra etc, and no puppies is irresponsible!

Crikey!

Well I'm very sorry - but reading everything I have on this thread it's hard not to take that stance.
Rather a dog died of cancer than groomed it?  Come on!

Edited to add - If you read my original post properly I did not say that people who bred were irresponsible.  I said those who didn't want to breed and didn't spey and then ended up with pups were irresponsible ;)

Lisa, reading your original post properly ;) , I see you said:
<<It's simple enough - RESPONSIBLE owners spey and neuter if they're not breeding from them.>>

I repeat - so those who keep their bitches entire, healthy and pupless throughout their lives are somehow irresponsible? I don't think so!
:)

Well you can have your beliefs and I can have mine :)
Personally I believe speying and neutering is responsible.  If you choose to see that as me saying everyone who doesn't is irresponsible, that is your choice. ;)

Fair enough, Lisa. But it was your use of capital letters (shouting) that rather emphasised your point about responsibility (or lack thereof).
:)

We certainly can & do Lisa :)

It`s just the only conclusion one can come to is people who don`t,  aren`t responsible. And thats just not always the case <wink> :)

Christine, Spain.

I have 2 entire bitches, I have no intention of breeding or speying them & I am extremely responsible. I have read & researched this subject, along with many other health issues & am intelligent enough to make my own decisions, as I am sure many others are, without being labeled irresponsible because I am not breeding or spaying. I think you are wrong to class people as such who disagree with your views.

Christine, Spain

This thread isn't about puppies. Of course those who have litters willynilly are irresponsible, but we're talking about those who aren't breeding but choose to keep their females entire, as nature intended. I think in some cases it's cultural, for example in the US spay and neuter is the norm, while in Finland not to spay and neuter is the norm.

If we all went as nature intended, people wouldn't be treated in hospitals - we would have no medecine, no vaccinations, no hip replacements - nothing.  Why should our dogs be left as nature intended?  Does that include grooming?  Poodles cant clip themselves, pulis dont cord themselves...etc etc.  What about breeding?  Nearly all the breeds today aren't as nature intended, you don't see bulldogs, or chinese cresteds in the wild ;)
If everything was left as nature intended, there'd be dogs roaming the streets (loving homes aren't what nature intended), no pedigrees, disease would be rife, and fleas would be loving it ;)

Think what you like. There are vital hormones in those organs, and I personally wouldn't want my dog to be without them, not limited to but especially while maturing into an adult. As I make this major decision which will affect the rest of my dog's life, I want as many of the facts as possible, and I think it IS wrong to wash over and say "all responsible people spay/neuter their pets" and dismiss the negative side effects of this operation as being trivial when compared to benefits of the op that may or may not be true for that specific dog. I'm sure many of us are affected by personal experiences and that sways opinion too and I'm no different, having a 1.5 yr old bitch that was spayed at 6 months. Even if it is more inconvenient to have a bitch that has seasons and all that entails, I'm going to do the best I can to help her live a long, healthy life with all internal organs untouched.

Lisa nature is a powerful force,just about the most powerful on earth & lets face it most, if not all of the drugs in use now, come from nature itself!

Work with it & besides it but never ever against it, we`ll only end up losing if we do.

Christine, Spain.

LisaQ I did not say I'd rather my dog died of cancer than I groomed it - but I would rather she didn't have to be go through the stress she suffers because her unatural coat picks up so much undergrowth - this suffering is EVERY DAY - ever tried picking puts out of a piece of cotton wool? 'Cos that's what it's like - she's even been clipped - but the fluffy undercoat is still there, mats appear in 24 hours and if not dealt with regularly (like every day) would clump together and start forming larger areas which would affect her skin.  She lived for 10 years without getting pregnant, or even having stray dogs at the door step - it's not hard to be responsible when you have an entire bitch, just involves a little care for a few days a year - her current situation is ongoing, every day for the rest of her life...........

Brainless this is one of the major reasons why I am hesitant to spay Sasha so young. Nikki doesn't seem to have matured mentally which I think is a shame. I'm sure we could prevent any possible chance of getting mammary cancer ourselves if we chopped our boobs off but I for one am not going to.

Maiko, PLEASE bear in mind that the more seasons your girl has, the less effective spaying will be at preventing cancers. The best results come from bitches spayed before their first season, but with each subsequent season the risk gets higher. :(

Does anyone have the reference for the original study that is being discussed here? I haven't been able to find it in the scientific literature, and in fact the published studies that I have come across suggest that spaying is effective in preventing hormone related cancers if done up to 2.5 years of age (eg Sonnenschein et al (1991) Am. J. Epidemiol. v133 p 694-703, Ferguson (1985) Vet. Clin. North. Am. Small Anim. Pract. v15 p 501-511). There also seem to be wide variations in the predicted incidence of mammary tumours (eg Dobson et al (2002) J. Small Anim. Pract. v43 p 240-246 suggested that the incidence of mammary tumours in a large population of insured dogs is only of the order of 205 cases per 100,000 dogs per year) - most studies suggest 25-50% of entire bitches will develop one or more mammary tumours, with the peak age of detection between 7 and 10 years old, BUT that only 20-50% of these (depending on who's report you read) will be malignant. There also seems to be breed specific variation (as you'd expect I suppose, given the tendency for genetic predisposing factors to influence development), and a correlation between development of mammary tumours in later life and obesity during and shortly after puberty.
I am in fact mostly pro neutering (honest guv! lol), and see no reason not to do it if you do not intend to breed, but why the hurry? To me, the onset of the ability to reproduce suggests that most of the physical development is complete, and I would struggle to recommend 'twiddling' with the balance of the developing body systems until they've more or less finished developing! Further, ovariohysterectomy is major surgery, with all the risks that entails, and I'd rather not have my dog undergo surgery and recovery while it is still growing and developing at 'puppy' rate, particularly as there is no way of knowing, before the first season, how close the bitch is to starting. It seems logical that midway between the first and second season, when the bitch is hormonally most quiescent is the ideal time?

I have found a few references here about the down side of netuering with references.  If the Link doesn't work, then just copy and paste the bits between the link and square brackets.
http://www.flyballdogs.com/fullthrottle/sterlizepageI.html

Those studies are incredibly old (one dated back to the 70s?!), more recent studies show there is absolutely no link between neutering and incontinence, in fact incontinence is more common in unspayed bitches (mainly those that are bred of course). :)
Also it does confirm what I said about mammary cancer.

Cheers Brainless, I like to go back to the source material for my facts, being one of those irritating beggars who likes to see both sides of a tale. :-) Would like to see the publications from the pro-neutering perspective - where do these figures come from? Anyone?

http://www.uga.edu/~lam/kids/spay/med.html - not a study but info on health benefits (graphic pics).

http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/mam.html  - mammary strip operation in a bitch (graphic pics)

Quoted from the Department of Clinical Studies, Philadelphia:
"In human and dog breast cancer, studies show that hormonal/reproductive status plays an important role in prognosis, prevention, and treatment of disease. In dogs, a study similar to this one showed an increased risk of breast cancer correlated with the age at which a dog was spayed in its life. A more recent study also showed that dogs that were spayed around the time of diagnosis of mammary cancer enjoyed potentially improved survival as well."

On the subject of age:
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/olson/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1

That dispels any myths about paediatric neutering.

www.angelswish.org/images/spayneuterpaper2002.doc

A download of more study results

Taken from VetInfo:
"Q: Is there any correlation between incontinence and early spaying? Is it less likely for a bitch to develop incontinence if she is allowed to go through one heat? Thank you

A: I do not know of a really good study of early spay procedures (less than 6 months of age) and later incontinence incidence so the best I can really say is that I don't know.

I believe that the incidence of incontinence in dogs spayed after 6 months of age has been studied and there was not a statistically higher incidence of incontinence ultimately in spayed bitches --- but the onset of the symptom was younger compared to unspayed dogs. I don't think that waiting through one heat period would make a big difference but have no proof for that belief. There are known advantages to spaying prior to the first heat period, including a reduction in the rate of mammary cancer from about 8% in dogs who went through one heat to less than 1% in dogs who were spayed prior to the first heat.

I wish I could give you more solid information but I can't.

Mike Richards, DVM"

"Q: We have heard conflicting opinions on whether to spay our border collie before or after the heat. Can you give us your objective opinion on this? Thank you

A: I hope that you have not heard conflicting opinions from vets! It is pretty much universally agreed upon by vets that the best time to spay is BEFORE the first heat period. If a dog is spayed prior to the first heat, the odds of developing mammary cancer later in life are less than 1%. If spayed between the first and second heat periods the risk increases to about 8%. If spayed at any time after the second heat period, the risk of mammary cancer is about 25% in the dog (same as in an unspayed dog). There are no reasons not to spay prior to the first heat that I am aware of. A few dogs do develop incontinence from low estrogen levels after spaying but this does not appear to be affected much by the time the dog is spayed. Some dogs just develop this problem after spaying.

With the obvious benefit of spaying before the first heat and the lack of any problems that have been proven to occur as the result of spaying early, there does not appear to be much reason for controversy to me.

Mike Richards, DVM"

So, if I understand that properly, Mike Richards (what does DVM stand for, anyone know?) a bitch who is spayed after her first season has an 8% chance of getting mammary cancer. That is the same as saying she has a 92% chance of not getting mammary cancer!

Likewise the apparent maximum of 25% chance if spayed at any time after her second season. That's a 75% chance that she won't!

That's remote enough for me!
:)

Me too, especially as only about 40% of Mammary tumours are malignant, or does the 25% figure mean the malignant cancers?

Of course our perspective as breeders is rather different, as if we want to continue or breed and lines we cannot spay our bitches young.

I am very glad that my Champion bitch was not spayed before she returned to me as an adolescent, would have been such a waste to not have any offspring from her.  she is now the proud Mum of my next generation who are 12 weeks old.

Many people don't come into showing or after doing well decide to breed from an excellent dog or bitch until they are adult.  If they were neutered as babies they would never have the opportunity to contribute in a positive way to the breeds gene pool.

You are correct, Brainless. The published figures for the proportion of mammary neoplasias which are malignant vary from 20 to 50%, so the overall chance of having an entire bitch develop a malignant mammary tumour at around 7-10 years old is somewhere between 1/8 and 1/20 - don't know what proportion of the various types of mammary tumour respond well to treatment (haven't looked). The fact there there does appear to be a fairly wide breed specific variation suggests that genetic predisposition is a significant factor. Personaly, I was more worried about pyo than mammary cancer down the line, I couldn't guarantee that I'd be able to spot it, so Minx was 'done' to stop me worrying (ie for my benefit really, although the fact that she had a hard time with her first season made it an easy decision).

On the coat side (this may seem irrelevant but bear with me :-) ) - Minx has to have her ears 'done' once a week, she hates it, every hair on her body stands on end and she tries to hide under the furniture when the bottle comes out. It takes me about ten seconds, but she won't come near me (unless I ask her to) or even look at me for a couple of hours afterwards, and acts ridiculously submissively towards me for the rest of the day - understandably really, I'm doing something unpleasant to her and she doesn't know why, and it's not something I can just not do. If I had to spend ten minutes a day, rather than ten seconds a week, doing it, for the rest of her life, our relationship would be very different. So I can understand why the owners of heavy coated bitches who don't like being groomed would consider the effects of the loss of reproductive hormones on the coat from more than just vanity. I'd be surprised if there is any published data on coat changes, after all its not a medical condition. Glad I prefer smooth coated breeds so don't have to think about that!

Must admit I don't need published evidence of the negative coat changes.  Every Springer or CKCS that I know or have met that is neutered has this horendous candyfloss coat.  I can spot they are neutered at a distance, and that is with 20% sight.  I do know several that visit the grooming parlour every 3 weeks and they look tidy, but you touch the coat and it ahs this linty feel, and you can see the fuzz growing, like a schoolboys chin.

I'll put that in context for those who think that it isnt a large risk. 25% is ONE IN FOUR! How many dogs do you have? You sit there and patronise and put other things in front of the biggest killer of unspayed bitches, like coat quality and young behaviour. In the meantime I'll sit and comfort my baby as she dies. IT wasnt "remote enough" for her.

Kathy, I realise that 25% is one in four. You will be aware that, as women, you and I have a statistical chance of 33% - that's one in three - of getting cancer. I haven't decided to have any superfluous bits and pieces removed to lessen the likelihood, and I have a family dependent on me.

I have 4 dogs.
:)

Kathy you have all my thoughts and sympathy but I don't think this is the time for you to consider the arguments being put forward, you are feeling emotional and by following this thread just upsetting yourself. Believe me just after I lost my castrated boy, indirectly through his being castrated, I would not have been able to argue my point without tears and anger, in fact, still can't, that is why I have said I will no longer comment on the effects of removing a large part of the hormonal system, to anyone who thinks it is just the coat I would say think again and do some research, and look at both sides, biased research is no good to anyone.

Jackie I truly appreciate your concern, but as someone who has worked in the veterinary field not only am I upset about Ruby, but I'm seeing blind ignorance and a dog's looks being favoured over statistical proof and their HEALTH. I'm not arguing because I'm upset about Ruby (although I'm devastated), I'm arguing because it seems that a dog's looks are more important on this board, but then what should I expect. :)

Hi Kathy, I think you'll find, reading through the posts about the coat, is that people aren't so bothered about the look of the coat, but more the pain and distress the animals go through every day because of the extra grooming (over and above the normal breed requirements) required.

In your time as a vet nurse I'm sure you saw examples of coated dogs with neglected coats where the mats had clumped so badly they had torn the skin. But that was after several weeks of neglect. Where the coat has been changed due to spaying, this can happen within days because of the soft, woolly nature of the coat. :(

Then Kathy I would suggest that when your present upset is over you take some time to research on the other side of the coin. My own research has only been going on for about 8 years but I have had help from a good few vets during that time. If you do the same thing and you have the trust of those you speak to I think you will be aware of just what can happen to organisms in general and dogs in particular when the glands that produce hormones are removed. I am not against neutering but think to neuter at a young age may/does cause problems, to give you an idea of what happens to growth alone think of the neutered tom cat as against a full tom, they could well be different animals, not that I am suggesting we would want too many intact toms around.

I have looked into both sides. I am yet to find ANY veterinary evidence regarding coat quality being compromised in dogs, or any other problems. I am aware that in some veterinary studies it showed that although a spayed bitch isnt more likely to become incontinent, in *some* cases spayed bitches become incontinent slightly earlier than intact ones. The same study did not tell us whether or not the intact bitches had been through having litters, as that of course raises the risk of incontinence. It seems this evidence is often misread or purposefully misrepresented by those who have stakes in breeding. As for cats, dont get me started, I'm involved in cat rescue *lol* - all of my neutered toms have been larger and healthier than intact ones :) In fact I much prefer a neutered/spayed cat's personality over the dominneering personality of intact males AND females. Besides, most people let their cats out, and therefore any responsible cat owner will spay/neuter to lower the risks of pregnancy, and FeLV/FIV (and of course straying/RTAs). I keep mine as indoor cats but would still never keep them intact. My female Grace was spayed at 11 weeks, and if I get another dog in the future, she will be too due to the overwhelming veterinary evidence that it is beneficial :)

Maybe you can't find any veterinary info regarding coat quality because unlike incontinence it's not regarded as a veterinary issue??

Jeangenie - thanks for saying so well what I was trying to get over - before I had Bonnie clipped she refused to come to me even for a cuddle because I had to try and pick out the knots on such a regular basis - my relationship with her was breaking down, and I'd known her since the day she was born - what kind of life was that?  Even now she's been clipped we still have an ongoing problem - and that will be with her for the rest of her life, I am so thankful she is nearer the end of it than the begining.......  I know the coat problem only affects a few breed (sadly some of my favourite breeds) and I was arogant enough to think 'my dog won't be affected', but I also thought 'OK, I'll be a responsible owner and get her speyed' even though I'd managed to be responsible enough to keep her from breeding for 10 years, I thought it would be a positive change - it wasn't :(

I understand your upset at having to groom your girl more, but isnt that better than her dying of cancer or pyo? I cant relate the possible minor discomfort from grooming a dog with poor coat condition/quality to the agony of pyo or the slow death of cancer. This is what I dont get. Also, there have been many unspayed bitches I've seen with horrendous coat condition - and its generally related to diet, general health, parasites, etc. You're probably right about the studies - they have far more serious conditions to study more (sorry but its true, and I dont say that to offend). If I was picking a different breed and was concerned about coat quality after spaying I would be considering if a short haired breed might be a better choice - it really is the breeders'/KC's responsibilities to make a change for the better in the health of their breed. I know its different for you as you already have her, but there is always that option for those who want to avoid mammary cancer and pyometra, and I know I would put that first. Having owned an elderly (rescue) Beardie, I had to groom twice a day as his coat was terrible, and he was so used to it he wasnt bothered at all - in fact it was incredibly important to our bonding. What breed is it you own? Do you give any supplements for the coat?

Kathy, we've had this discussion before - agreed to differ last time, hope we can do the same this time, as I don't think it's getting either of us anywhere. For your information Bonnie (the oldest) is an ESS x BC, and Missy is an ESS.  They both have cod liver oil and are fed Naturediet. 

Of course we can agree to differ Digger, I was only pointing out the inaccuracies in some people's ideas of the negative effects of spaying and pointing out the positives. :) Jenna asked for the evidence and I showed it. It's an emotive subject and I understand why those without evidence for their argument would be frustrated by it (just as I am frustrated by people ignoring veterinary evidence when my girl is dying because her owner didnt spay her), but it is something I would be interested in seeing the evidence for, even if it wouldn't change my view.

If it helps, I use EPO for my pets' coats and it works wonders. I used to use CLO but EPO seems to have better effects. EPO is also good for unspayed bitches as it has a beneficial effect on pre oestrus symptoms and oestrus problems apparently.

I also am a recent convert to NatureDiet - fantastic isnt it? :)

Cheers for those KathyM, but the two links with the nice references (the ivis and the angelswish sites) report comparisons between two ages of pre-pubertal neutering (ie around 6 weeks vs around 6 months), with either no comparison with neutering post-pubertal or not at all (ivis), or reporting no difference in the increased risk of urinary incontinence in spayed bitches regardless of the age of spaying, and something I've not come across before, the adrenal gland tumour stuff (angelswish). Probably nothing documentary on that yet because pediatric neutering is not commonly recommended in this country, and is a fairly recent development in the US. Unfortunately, its just as easy to quote interpretation of scientific data from pro-spaying 'propaganda' websites, as it is to quote from similar anti sites, in fact I've seen the 0.5%, 7%, 25% figures interpreted in two different ways on two such sites, but still with no indication where the figures came from in the first place! Most of us are intelligent enough (I hope!) to make up our own minds based on our own circumstances and experience and what risk we are prepared to deal with, if we are given factual information to consider, rather than pro- or anti- 'sabre rattling'! I'll be sticking to my original decision to neuter midway between first and second season should the occasion arise again, and I'm hoping that anyone who is having to think about it has found the information from both sides useful and informative, rather than confusing and ranty, lol :-D
(love the thread on this 'elsewhere' BTW!)

Hi Jenna :)

Not sure which thread you mean and where? Wish I knew how to blinkin' PM :D

"I'm hoping that anyone who is having to think about it has found the information from both sides useful and informative, rather than confusing and ranty"
Couldnt agree more ;)

On the subject of paediatric neutering, I'm lucky to know a handful of vets over here that will carry it out, hence my cat having been spayed at 11 weeks (would have been 8 weeks but she underwent a more major/lengthy surgery then).

Take care

Kathy
xx

Kathy, Digger regrets having her bitch spayed because of the side-effects of the surgery. I regret having my bitch spayed because of her mammary tumour (I don't know whether or not is was malignant - the majority of tumours aren't) because of the agonising death she suffered two days later. If she'd never been operated on her life would have been longer and far less painful at the end.

We all have regrets. Perhaps, when we can foretell the future, we'll all do better. Until then, we can only follow our consciences.

Kathy you are not thinking straight, leave it till you are and until you have had the chance to do some proper research. Doing research within your own circle is no good you need to clear your mind of preconceived ideas and look at the facts anew.

Jackie I would really appreciate it if you werent so rude and patronising. I am thinking quite clearly thank you. You use the excuse of me being upset to devalue anything I say, so please dont, as what I say is based on fact :) I dont think the results of the studies I showed were handwritten by grieving dog owners were they?

<<I am yet to find ANY veterinary evidence regarding coat quality being compromised in dogs, or any other problems. >>

Kathy, I have no intentions of being rude but someone who states that spaying has no effect on the coat ever nor any other effect, have not done there homework or if they have they are not looking at the thing with the proper care. And to be honest the effect on the coat is only the start of things, so as I said, with the greatest of respect, take another look at the subject and try to do it with an open mind. If a young woman has their ovaries removed they are put on medication for the rest of their lives or at least till they are 60, now why would that be if a mammal can live a healthy life without the hormones that are produced by them.

I know there is a lot of papers out there that say as you are saying, but if you are in contact with vets then ask them off the record, not just those who are of the "neuter everything" brigade, but also those who have been in practice for a good few years and whom you trust and who trust you, think you will find a different story from those at the sharp end, well at least I did.

Jackie I really dont understand this. I did not say "spaying has no effect on the coat ever nor any other effect" - I said that I had never seen any evidence of it - which is TRUE. I did ask for people to show me the relevant evidnce, but its not been forthcoming, so how am I supposed to learn? And as for me being one of the "neuter everything brigade" and talking to a vet off record and they'll confirm it all - tosh, sorry. Yes I do neuter my pets, because its healthiest for them and I dont wish to breed and never will. I used to be a vet nurse and had plenty of opportunity to speak with vets both off the record and on, and have never heard anything about spaying affecting coat quality. I suggest you read my posts before you answer in future. Everything I have learned has been with an open mind - I use natural remedies, am thinking of learning reiki, I read veterinary books, learn online, have changed my dogs diet by researching things in FULL, etc etc, so dont tell me I'm closed minded or not "doing the homework". I personally find you as offensive, you have nothing positive to contribute and insist on twisting words and making assumptions. Do you actually have any proof to show? :)

You are correct you did not say it you said that was all you had ever found or seen and put it forward as if a fact, at least that was how I read it.

No, I put the argument for spaying reducing the risk of mammary cancer as fact, all I said about coat quality was that I find it hard to understand why people would choose coat quality over the health benefits of spaying, and that I had never read anything about spaying affecting the coat (although I'm still willing to read anything people put forward). There was absolutely no need for you insulting remarks, not only against me, but your stereotyping of people who choose to neuter.

I sincerely hope that no-one here has to go through what Kathy is experiencing at the moment.

It is  gut-wrenching to watch your beloved dog dying in front of your eyes, particularly when you know that early intervention could have prevented it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but mine is that there is no reason, scientific or anecdotal, not to pre-season spay.

Every spayed bitch of mine has developed normally, both physically and mentally. One in particular blossomed, post spay, into a show-quality bitch - perfect conformation, perfect temperament, and that indefinable spark and dignity so appreciated in the ring. (No, not just my opinion but confirmed by respected judges, much to the chagrin of her breeder!)

Do what you feel is right for your bitch - she has no say in the matter. But do weigh the pros and cons very, very, very carefully.

I have been through mammary cancer with an unspayed bitch. Have watched her distress during false preganancy. Have nursed her through drastic surgery.
Have watched her pain and bewilderment during a long period of recovery.

Would I put another through that?  No.

Hi Katie,  If you do have your dog spayed, make sure she doesn't get infected.  We just had our dog spayed, and we weren't told of the dangers of letting her go in the back yard. She got dirt in her incision and contracted tetanus.  She is in 24 hour care at a vet clinic, on an IV, can't eat or drink.  We don't know if she'll make it.  Tetanus bacteria lives in soil.  We had no idea she could catch such a deadly disease so easily after this surgery.  Take care,  Ann
feel free to e-mail me at AnnMcAvoyC21@aol.com

Finally found the veterinary article I was looking for which gives pros and cons of neutering!

http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html

I find it interesting that it mentions the protective effects of lactation regarding prevention/reduction of mammary cancer, as this is what has been found in humans (I took part in a study when my daughter was born 16 years ago, by providing samples of milk and blood).

That addy's not working, Brainless. Does it need tweaking?

It worked when I copy & pasted it into google J/G :)

Christine, Spain.

I really am confused about links these days, as they show on some views and not on others.  the old way of doing (with the square brackets) them doesn't work, and I read in help that they aren't needed if you put the whole addy????  Very confused.

Must say I hate the new forum.  Can't underatand what the differeence is between new posts and unread.  When using them you can't answer the post, have to go into main thread.

It ia almost as agravating to use as another forum I am on.  think my visits will get less and less, as it takes tooo long!