Hi, Olde Tyme Bulldog Puppy wanted, if anyone here knows of any breeders that have puppies available for Jan 2004 would be most grateful if you would e-mail me at l.lovelessy@merseymail.com.Thanks Lisa

There is no such breed but if you put Olde Tyme Bulldog into a search engine you will find the web site of someone who breeds cross breeds and calls them by that name.

Sorry to inform you but there is such a breed,obviously your own ignorance stands in the way recognising that,i think that you are very rude!!!! If i wanted a cross breed i would go to rescue,i have just lost a two year old kennel club registered bulldog under a general anaesthetic for cherry eye,and decided i dont wish for another waste of a young life,and i never want to loose another dog in those circumstances ever again,and i would not wish what i have been through with my dog,on my worst enemy. The breeds people decide to own are their own personal choice,you have yours i am sure,and i have mine,if i had realized people were so against breeds that are not kc recognised here,i would not have bothered posting. I know theres a lot of work underway to get this breed some recognition by the kc,and i do firmly belive that it is only a matter of time before they do,but thats just something we will all have to wait and see about. At the end of the day wether they are a cross breed or not, they happen to `float my boat`i like them,they are nice looking dogs. And actually i have read an awful lot about them i have done a fair amount of research,and the `someone` who you mention actually founded the breed,and i dont think that for one second he sees these dogs as crossbreeds,come on!! every dog we know about on planet earth started out life as a crossbreed. And it would be very boring in this world if we all owned the same breed of dog as forums like this would not exsist!! there would be nothing to talk about. I cant belive some of the posts ive read on here,i dont even know if i will bother posting again,if this is the attitude people have here!
And i thought this was a board for all dog lovers??? obviously i have come to the wrong place!!
Thanks to the two lovely people from here that gave a reply to my e-mail,i am very grateful.

Why on earth do you say I am very rude and if I am wrong I am sorry, would you please tell me which kennel club recognises them. I researched and it appeared that one person was breeding what they called OTDB's and selling them, so it was said, only to game keepers?????? Please feel free to put me right, let me have some history, how long they have been reading true, how many of them are there and how many people are now breeding the dogs true to type. In the photos I have looked at no two dogs look the same, so not what I would say was a breed. But you know so please let us know the answer to the above questions and then we will be better informed.

Hi Jackie,

After the last row on here i vowed never again to post on Champdogs, the arguement got a bit nasty and was removed by admin. So i usually just browse on here now. But seeing as the subject has again come up and you sound as if you are willing to have an open mind about Olde Tyme Bulldoggs untill you know more about them i will give you some information on them!
There are a couple of well known OTB breeds out there, the most well known is the Dorset Olde Tyme Bulldogge and the Victorian Bulldogge. I cant speak for the Victorian Bulldogge as i know less about them, but the Dorset Olde Tyme Bulldogge is certainly not a cross. The guy who founded them started his breeding programme over 20 years ago, his aim was too bring back the origonal bulldog, in doing this the dog would be slightly taller, with a tail and more athletic and in turn, more healthy. So definatly not a crossbreed as these dogs were around before they were bred down to the KC Bulldog we know today. The DOTB covers more than 10 generations, the KC only ask for 5, however they are still in disscussions about whether or not to register this breed. Whether they do or not makes no difference to the breed, they are still an outstanding dog, hard work and alot of time has been put into them, its not nice when people immediatly slag them down, putting that persons efforts down without a second thought, especially when knowledge about them is limited. These dogs are certainly not sold to game keepers! LOL! thats funny! Where did u here that????!!!! So anyway, to be KC registered is not the be all and end all for dogs, they can live without it!
These dogs are recognised by the British Olde Tyme Bulldogge society, when you buy one they come with family tree, pedigree certificate, etc. Just becuase they dont come with a KC Certificate doesnt make them any less important than a KC dog.
You say 'no 2 dogs look the same'. I kind of see where youre coming from, but these dogs are still a working progress, and im glad they dont all look exactly the same, when breeding you need a choice to decide which ones to breed from in order to make better dogs. And the breed standard is met by all DOTB, so if they arent identical,it doesnt matter, the breed standard is still there.
I think the main reason why some people immediatly put these dogs down is becuase of those people who carelessly advertise random cross bull breeds and call them Olde Tyme Bulldoggs when theyre not, these people are just trying to make a few quid, havnt got a breeding programme and are lying to the public! Ignore these amertures, look at the real OTB and appreciate the hard work that have gone into them. They are their own breed in their own right, they are not trying to pass them off to replace the EB, the breeder of DOTB wants everyone to understand that his dogs are a world apart from EB, he sees them as a different breed and doesnt want them to be compared with the EB to the extent which they sometimes are.
Please realise that nobody is putting the EB down, they are wonderfull dogs, great companions, and whether you like to admit it or not, actually came from the Olde Tyme Bulldogge! Thats theyre history!
You mention you have seen pictures of these dogs, so you obviously know the web site, if you go on there and browse around you can read up on their history in more detail, back to the 1800's.
In conclusion, these dogs everyone is so quick to put down, are not crossbreeds, or a new breed, they were around before many other dogs, its just that they dissappeared and have now, thankfully been bought back.
Hope this has made sense and helped.
Thanks,
Sharon

Sharon what I don't under stand is if they are an established breed why are they called by different names and why do they all look different and rather poor specimens, I assume any one publishing a photo on the web would use their best examples. And I still don't know why I was accused of being rude and stupid.

Hi Jackie,

Im not sure what you mean by different names, i assume you are talking about 'Dorset', 'Victorian' and as i forgot to mention earlier 'Sussex' breeds. These 3 breeds are the most known about alternative bulldogs types. The reason that there isnt just one is becuase there are 3 different people breeding 3 different kinds of alternative bulldogs, and they have established their own breeding programmes.

I cant speak for the Sussex and Victorian bulldogs as i dont know that much about them, but the Dorset is the Olde Tyme bulldog, im pretty sure that the victorian and sussex bulldogs are not 'olde tyme', by that i mean that they havnt been bred back to the origonal bulldog, they are just 'alternative' bulldogs. Whereas the Dorset OLDE TYME bulldogge is the one that has been bred back to how they were in the 1800's. Thats why these 3 breeds look different, the founders of the breeds have different standards to which the dogs are bred to. The Victorian Bulldog has maybe been bred back to the victorian days...im not sure...you'll have to do a bit of research, im sure the breeders would reply to any emails you sent them. I will be going to a show next year, held by the Victorian Bulldog Society, any bulldog breed can go, Dorsets, Victorians, Sussexs's, and other bully breeds. Il find out more about them then.

I personally prefer the Dorset, i own one, i saw all the breeders dogs and they are all wonderfull. If you search on google, you may be able to find a picture of a bull baiting bulldog. Now compare that with a Dorset and theyre not far off at all. Better than that, look at the breeders website and there is a painting he uses which is on every page at the top, picturing a bulldog in the 1800's fighting a bull.
I dont know why you think they are poor specimens, maybe you are expecting them to look alot like todays EB, but as i have already explained, this is not what the breeder wants, he wants to bring back the bulldog of old, hence the difference in looks.

I hope you now understand a bit more about the breed, and i would just like to say that whether or not olde tyme or alternative bulldogs are your thing or not, i dont think thats what matters, as long as the breeders aim is being fulfilled. Just becuase they dont look like the kind of bulldog you like, doesnt automatically make them 'poor specimens'. Please with-hold judgement like that as its wrong.

As for you being accused of being stupid and rude, that wasnt me, so i dont why that was said.

Sharon

I own 2 "EBs" and would just like to say that I personally think that the olde tyme bulldogges are adorable and the photos I looked at on the website didn-t show any poor specimens whatsoever, I have to bulldogs they both look completely different. I really don-t see the problem people have, we all have different tastes, it would be a boring world if we all liked the same

Good on ya 'jmo'!!!
Thats the kind of attitude thats needed if we want alternative bulldogges to be appreciated for what they are - and the dogs, and founders, should be recognised for all the hard work they have put in. Ever thought about adding one to your family??!!! Sounds like they'ld all have a wail of a time together!

Sharon

Admin edit: read the forum terms of service before you make any more posts

Absolutely gorgeous Sharon. I don-t think my two would be very happy should I bring another dog home

All the best with Rocky

My comment that they were poor specimens was not based on any breed in particular, how could it be, but on the general conformation, but that was just my opinion and of course others may think that what I saw as faults are just what is required in this breed for some reason that escapes me. Can accept that those in the photos may be poor examples but I have no means of knowing that. The fact that there are two or three different people all doing their own thing and calling the result by the same name will not help anyone accept the dogs as a breed, if they are all genuine in there desire to ‘recreate’ a breed then why do they not work together. Unless someone has an extensive kennel they can’t hope to establish a breed all on their own, it would take centuries before there would be sufficient numbers breeding true to type.

If there is a need for a new bull breed then I have no feeling about people developing one if they so wish, but to suggest that it can be done piece meal by at least three different people all producing there own variety, and that the results be accepted as new breed by the KC is hard to accept. Just look how long it has taken for the Parson to be accepted and to produce a terrier that is recognisable as being of it’s own breed and not be confused as one of the other similar terriers. True I have not seen many photos of the ‘Olde Tyme Bulldog’ but those I have seen are all different and most look to me of dubious conformation. Doubt that I will live long enough to see a breed established but think you should all get together if to develop this new breed if it is really what you want. It in no good setting up little clubs who prefer one persons breeding to another as that will not produce conformity, and it is conformity that a ‘new breed’ requires to be acceptable as a breed in it’s own right.

Can you also say if this is the same ‘breed’ that was created in the USA by crossing the English Bulldog with the Pitbull , American Bulldog and I believe the Bullmastiff not sure in what order or %, or is that another project, as I note that is called the Olde Tyme Bulldogge.

I'm with you on this one Jackie.Some of these dogs are beautiful but they are very varied.Like you it seems that several different people are doing their own thing instead of getting together to develope this 'new breed'.
To say that someone has been breeding these dogs for 20 years means nothing...a true breed much more than one persons input for 20 years ....as you say look at the JRT.
This is just my opinion and I'm sure everyone has theres which may or may not coincide with mine.I'm sure that Bulldog people see this as just interfering with a breed that they no doubt love dearly...but each to their own.
There are many cross breeds that people like to call breeds....labradoodles probably being the best known as well as the wolf lookalike(name escapes me).To my mind a breed is a dog that is recognised by the Kennel club or a foreign equivalent.....until this is so its just a type.To 'invent' a breed club for these dogs does not count!! But as I said this is just my opinion...if everyone were the same it would be a boring world
Archer

Lisa
I do not find Jackies reply at all rude but I find your reply to her incredibly rude and offensive....not a good start is it!
Archer

ive never quite got this mentality that thinks for a breed to exist it has te be recongised by the KC or some similar organisation. Surely a breed exists once they have an adiquete (SP) gene pool from which to sustain themselves.

What i cant understand is why people feel they need to cross bread, their are soooooooooo many, altman white, regency, victorian, olde english, olde boston bulldogs, the list is endless. Why cant people just stick with the good old english bulldog, their fantastic enough as it is, why do we need to start cross breeding them which could in turn cause problems for the breeds temperament, as im sure anyone no's randomly breeding dogs is never good. Why cant we just have American, French and English Bulldogs, we dont need these crosses, they will never be recognised becasue their just random crosses. and as for lisa, jackie was not being rude, just saying what she thought was true, the only one being rude is YOU.

That’s my point Andy, until there is a gene pool large enough and good enough to reliably produce animals that are without doubt a particular breed then that breed does not exist. For a breed to be registered with any recognised Kennel Club and have a standard accepted by that kennel club means that anyone breeding one of the said breed has a template to work with, it is not necessary but is the method we use as we do not have a better one.

Lisa
Like Archer said, I don't find Jacki's comment at all rude......yours however, were incredibly rude
I really dont think there was any need for that :(

I'm not a english bulldog owner but I have admired the breed for a long time. I have also come across the DOTB on the net as well. I am confused as to the origins of the DOTB however. I assume that today's KC bulldog is the descendant of the old english bulldog which was taller and more athletic. If the KC recognised bulldog is the descendant of the old bulldog then how did we arrive at the DOTB without crossing the current KC bulldog with another breed (presumably not a bulldog)?
To be honest I like the look of both the KC bulldog and the Olde tyme bulldog.

They are the result of crossing breeds, not sure which in this country or if all those who claim to be breeding OTB's are breeding from the same crosses. Not sure what they are aiming for except another sort of Bullbreed. They appear to be doing the same sort of thing in the USA and the cross is said to be Am Bulldog, Am pitbull, bullmastiff but as you can't crossbreed 3 dogs I can't say what method was used or for what purpose.

As know one would know anything about old time bulldogs except from drawings it is difficult to know just what the aim is.

Ok....i have tryed to explain the breed, how it was founded, the breeders aim and why it has been developed. But it still seems as if everyone wants more answers not only to questions i agree with, but to questions i do not. It is very hard for me to put the whole picture across becuase a couple of things i have said are ignored, put down, or not understood. In my previous posts i speak mainly of the Dorset, other breeds i simply do not know enough about to put forward an arguement on their side.

So all im going to say is this;

All breeds out there have dirived from a crossbreed. As the Dorset is still a working progress, it is obviously going to be closer to the dogs put into it than compared to a breed that has been around longer. Although 20 years isnt that long in that respect, it has been sufficiant enough to create a good gene pool from which more and more Dorsets can be produced from, in time they will become more well known and there will be more of them, and hopefully by this point people will be more accepting of them.
I wont say what dogs went into the foundation Dorsets purley becuase its not for me to say, but i do know that it was only bull breeds...and these bull breeds all origonated from the origonal bull baiting bulldogs, so these dogs blood is very close to the 1800's bulldogs.
As for the temperaments, they are not far and wide apart. All these dogs temperaments are the same as they are only bred from good parents. They are laid back, gentle giants. As i said, people probably mis interprt what they are like because you look at their history (bull baiting) and think they must be vicious. This is simply not true. I have a 10 month old baby, and my dog gets along well with him, other people, animals, and is freindly towards strangers.
As for the 3 main breeders coming together and producing one dog....well the breeder of the DOTB has commented that that would have been the perfect thing to do, but when he set out 20 years ago to bring back the bulldog of old, he was alone in his aim. Since then a couple more people have had the same idea, but not the same aim. You see the Dorsets are being bred back to the true form of the bullbaiting bulldogs. I imagine the Victorian bulldogs are being bred back to how they were in the Victorian days, but im not definate, and ive no idea about the sussex. So 3 different aims can not now come together as one. Do you understand what im saying? As for the American bulldog, i dont know much about it. But just becuase these breeds are popping up, doesnt mean that the Dorsets are any less of a dog, becuase they have been around the longest, and i think, have the best aim.
Also, itmay interest you that the breeder of the Dorsets has got his dogs in Canada, Japan and somewhere else, being bred from, to make the breed better established and more known world wide. Its going to take time though, i dont denie that. And there are Dorsets in many other countries, not just England as house pets. So they are being more recognised by other countries.
Someone said why not just have the English Bulldog and leave it at that. But the Dorsets are around becuase of the health problems alot of EB have, and thats why bringing back the bulldog of old will improve their health and quality of life. Im not saying all EB are unhealthy and suffer, i know there are healthy EBs out there, its just that there are so many health problems associated with the EB that its makes sense to bring back the way they were before they started getting bred shorter and tighter, etc. The Dorsets are not there to replace the EB. They are here as a seperate breed in a right of their own.

Its my last day at work today so i cant look at the internet now untill next Tuesday so i cant reply anymore after today.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree! There are lots of people that like and agree with the Dorsets aim and there are people who dont.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Lets leave it a that.
x

Hi Sharon

I think it is right what you say they are a breed in their own right, I think the problem people have is that they are continually compared to the bulldog, whereas they are two seperate breeds and should be treated as such