I have now heard of two instances where the same guy from the home counties area, over a period of time, has purchased 2 pups and an adult of a toy breed, under completely false pretences, and has later been found to have exported them to Japan. This has been done in a very underhand way and the breeders have been entirely misled and have been very distressed when they found out. This guy has handled these 'deals' so that it appears that the breeders have done the exporting.

I am posting this message as a warning to anyone selling a pup or adult, especially of a toy breed to check the credentials of every buyer thoroughly and ensure that the registration document is endorsed 'not eligible for export pedigree' if they want to be sure their dogs/pups stay in the UK - as far as is ever possible. Also remember to fill in the buyer's full details on the back of the transfer form so the dog can't be 'brokered' straight to another unknown buyer.

I know no-one can ever be absolutely sure of a dog's future when they sell it, but please do your best.

Does the guy's surname begin with "M"? Could be the same bloke who's been doing this for over 15 years.

ONE of his 'names' begins with M !

That'll be him, then. I reckon this is how he makes his living, and has done for years. Elderly mother wants a puppy? Wife would like a puppy? Family (in tow) want a dog? All very plausible. And all a complete fabrication.

How can you tell the world about this guy to warn them without ending up with a libel suit against you? And has anyone ever successfully traced the new owner of a dog he has exported to find out if it's all right?

He was in the dog papers years back, all his family are involved. so i am told?

He - or his family obviously need to be in the papers again then, but at least we have the internet to assist in warning people - how many other people are doing the same thing, I wonder. You just can't be too careful.

A dog can be exported even if it is endorsed as not eligible for export pedigree. All that means is that the KC should not issue an export pedigree, not that it can't be exported.

I now always fill in the registration documents before a pup leaves me and get the new owners to sign it there and then

Christine

Hate to be the stupid one but...

If people in Japan want a toy dog why don't they just arrange to buy one themselves?Also why would breeders worry about exporting their dogs? (apart from loosing touch and not being 100% sure of the new owners)

I know I've had to do some serious question and answer sessions to get a Staff breeder who's willing to let a dog come as far as Belfast but I just presumed it was because of the bad reputation for Irish puppy farms and Dogfighting (neither of which I have ever had any dealings with - thank dog!)

I understand what he is doing is wrong but if there's a market for pups abroad why haven't the breeders catered for it?

Again sorry if I'm missing something realy obvious!

Wishfairy it has much to do with money, the large sums that are offered by dealers/agents that buy puppies to export (pedigree show dogs) to Japan. There is also another market and that is one operated by the puppy farmers and licenced breeders too. The Far East is not an area that anyone should encourage exporting puppies to. There is a known trade of eating dog and using fur and pelt of dogs and cats for garments.
The last thing we want is breeders catering for it for goodness sake NO. It is bad enough knowing it goes on without encouraging and catering for it.
Sorry to say, you are missing something.

I wonder if pedigree dogs taste better then? ;)

Only joking so don't shoot me!

Fair point that the far east has a bad record for animal welfare and I hadn't even considered that they would be 'used' in such a way when they are costing the buyer so much :(

Can I highlight my stupidity further by asking why they don't just start their own puppy farms? NOT that this should be encouraged but why take pups from here when it's been proven many times that any idiot with a dog and a bitch can make puppies (obviously I'm not talking responable breeding here)

Sorry to ask but it's the only way I'll stop being stupid ;)

Sorry I cannot condone your sense of humour, it is in bad taste.
Start their own puppy farms? I can reply to that too - yes they have in China to breed St Bernards for the food trade in dog meat!

Ok Pat so maybe it wasn't funny but there's lots of times on this board when things get too tense and people end up attacking eachother.

If you want to be pedantic I will put it another way...

Why would they go to the trouble and expense of importing a pedigree dog from England? Do pedigrees have some advantage over mongrals when it comes to being meat? Or is it a status symbol?

Also why aren't there breeders in the Far East who are willing to provide them with the dogs?

I also find it very surprising that there are puppy farms for food in China - especially when there are so many Buddhists who don't eat ANY meat.

I'm afraid I will have to rely on replies as I really don't know enough about the countries and practices they condone to comment any further - hence the questions :)

Pat,
While I appreciate that the business you are talking about is terrible and should never be encouraged, I have to try and dispel this myth of dogs being served for dinner in the Far East. I have lived in Japan for 7 years and traveled extensively in Korea and China.

Firstly, dogs are never and never have been eaten in Japan. Keeping dogs as pets in the manner Western nations are accustomed to is quite new in Japan, but as other have mentioned, dogs are kept very well here with good vet facilities, food, and exercise areas. The dogs this man is exporting will probably be sold to pet shops where, sadly, most dogs are still bought in Japan (although this attitude is slowly changing), and be sold on to loving families, but certainly will not be eaten!!! As I said, I don't condone what he is doing AT ALL, but I also don't think Japan should be tarred with a reputation of cruelty to animals when this is simply not true. As for using dogs and cats for fur, I suspect that all Japanese people would be quite horrified by the idea. Why would the nation that gave us beautiful Akitas, Shibas, and so on have any interest in exporting dogs for food or fur?

In Korea, dogs are still eaten occasionally, but this is a very outdated and now rare practice, frowned upon by the government and probably the majority of the population, and no-one is going to have a pedigree toy dog exported for food. More or less the same can be said for China.

You are right to alert breeders to this man, but not to suggest that the outcome for these exported dogs will be as food.

Phil, Tokyo

I've shown this thread to a friend of mine from my schools days, so known her for almost 40 yrs now, she just happens to be married for the last 20 yrs to a Japanese butcher and resturanter ------- it went down like a lead ballon believe me.

Toshi was very cross as butchery and livestock has been his family business for many generations, so they are well known and know just about everyone in this field of work in Japan. Many people who are looking for a pedigree to import have already put a lot of time and effort into their research before they even contact a breeder over here, if they pull out of the deal they send the full price of the puppy as compensation as is their culture.

I was approached 2 yrs ago for a puppy for Japan, I advised the potential owners that my friend would be asked to do a home check for me and also spend sometime with the family to see what she felt about them. My friend met them and was very pleased, the children had been told they had to prove themselves worthy of an English pedigree dog so had to take up a new hobby to show they would be able to look after the dogs daily needs and training, if they missed one day they would not be getting the dog -------- these children took up jogging to show their worth a full year before their father contacted us! This family waited 2 yrs for a puppy, so when my bitch didn't conceive we were all very upset, I passed them onto another breeder who had already exported 3 dogs to Japan for showing, everything was set up and ready to go when I recieved an email telling me that the Family elders had changed their minds! Once the grandparents make a decision that's the end of it in Japan, my friend went to visit to see what had caused them to change their minds etc, seems father had decided that he was too old to have a young puppy in the house being excited. Compensation was paid to the company dealing with the pups shipping etc for the breeder within days and a very long apology was sent via myself to the breeder for all her time and trouble being wasted.

How many of us here have dealt with people with such scruples and honour? I know I haven't hell even had 1 withhold payment, still not paid to this day, on a bitch let alone pay me the full price as compensation for their withdrawl from a sale?

Whilst dog may not be eated in Japan there is certainly a trade in pet shop puppies that causes great concern for those involved in animal welfare. To own a dog and live in high rise flats in Tokio and other major cities in Japan with limited access to free runs or to carry toy breeds around in small bags as fashion assessory surely is not to be condoned or encouraged is it?
Sorry, if you misunderstood my posting by thinking that I was refering to Japan when I said dog eating it was China and Korea. But please do not try to dispel the myth that cats and dogs in China and Korea are not eaten or their pelts used for fur because they are it is no myth. Look at the following web site voice4dogs. It is heartbreaking.

While I agree that dog eating does go on in Korea or China, to the best of my knowledge these are very marginal practices frowned upon by the vast majority of the populations of those countries and probably headed for extinction as Western ideas of pet-keeping spread. If the stories of beatings and boiling alive that are printed on the Internet are true, then there certainly should be legislation to prevent this, but I still find the idea that one culture can tell another what they can and can't eat problematic. I don't see Hindus holding massive campaigns to stop us Europeans from killing and eating cows.

As for dog-keeping practices in Japan, yes, as I said, there is a large trade in pet shop puppies, but every pet shop I have entered has been extremely clean and the puppies appear comfortable. I would be as delighted as anyone if more people started going to breeders for their dogs, but better a good pet shop than a bad breeder, right? And besides, as I said attitudes towards pet shops are changing.

Your phrase "high rise flats in Tokyo and other major cities in Japan with limited access to free runs" shows that you have no first-hand knowledge of the country - contrary to the popular belief about Tokyo, there are as many houses with (albeit) small gardens as high rise flats (and in smaller cities than Tokyo, even more houses with larger gardens). Probably 95% of high-rise flats will not allow pets and this will be strictly enforced in rule-loving Japan. In the flats that do allow pets, the most popular breeds in Japan - chihuahuas, miniature dachshunds, and shih-tzus may be kept, but these dogs do not need huge amounts of space. There are numerous city parks, some of which have large dog runs for off-leash exercise, riverbanks with acres of grassland, and open countryside just outside of the city. If I can manage to give my saluki adequate exercise, then I'm sure the toy dog owners have no problem.

You do indeed see small dogs being carried in bags quite often, but I can't see your problem with this at all - the dog is with his owner, stimulated by the sights and smells around, but safe. If the dog is carried in his bag to a park for a nice walk, then all the better.

As for fashion accessories, yes, I agree, this attitude is rather too widespread in Japan, but at least the breeds that become fashionable here are manageable toy types, rather than the rottweilers and akitas that become fashionable in the UK and are kept by people who have no idea how to control such a large dog. Dogs are sometimes abandoned in Japan, but so are they in any other country (just ask any rescue worker).

My point being, Japan is not a nation that is unduly cruel to its dogs, probably less so than many Western nations, and if a little naive in some areas, only needs time and experience to improve.

Rather than getting your information from inflammatory and one-sided websites, come and see for yourself.

OK I know about the puppy farms, a quick look in my local paper can easily confirm that. (How can one guy possibly be selling lab pups, JRT pups, pointer pups, greyhounds pups, lurcher pups, collie pups, springer pups and GSD pups all at the same time? Several ads of this flavour every week..and who are these people ringing me and asking to purchase my ENTIRE litter?) Sadly we have no legislation down here to prevent it, and i can't seem to find anyone who believes we should have...
...but dogfighting? I've never heard of that down here....no more than in the UK at least!

Curious

Caroline
Co. Tipperary

I've no 'evidence' as such but have come across a few things that set off alarm bells in the 10 years I've been back living over here...

It's even hard to say what without people getting 'uppity'. But for a while I would mix with a 'certain sector' of the community due to my first husbands work. I knew of several people who kept a lot of crossbreeds - mostly staff x boxer and similar. And sadly none of them were housepets :(

These poor dogs would be covered in scars around their faces and necks but rarley saw the vet. I tried to find out what i could but it's quite a closed community anyway (and I'm not talking paramilitaries or drug dealers) - the women tended to stay quietly in the background and the men liked it that way

I never saw enough to take to the police but it was 'inferred' if you know what I mean. Of course it could have been idiots trying to look tough but I don't think so.

This was years ago but recently I've come across 2 pregnant bitches locally and when I asked if they were Irish Staffs I was told they were 'pitbulls'. One was lovley and I'd have taken her in a flash but the other was in the playground and snapped and snarled at every child (5 year olds) that went past her. I have to say that neither looked like it had been fought.

I've also been approached asking if I was looking for a pet or a fighter - everyone knows I'm after a Staffy - because they know a bloke blah blah blah. And I've had people tell me they's pay good money for my own dog (Who in her younger days did look a little 'pit' like) but she's 'just' a crossbreed.

I've never had enough to take to the police but the second I do, I will. I also know that in the same 'community' on the mainland it's probably exactly the same - we don't have exclusive rights on idiots reguardless of what people think! BUT what i was talking about originally was the REPUTATION of Ireland (as a whole)... you know the thing... come to belfast and get shot, gypsies laying driveways, bare knuckle fights etc, etc, etc.

Sorry if I offended you or made the reputation worse but I'm just calling it how I see it and real do hope I'm seeing it wrong :(

No offence taken whatsoever! I was just curious as that was one of the rumours i HADN'T heard over here. However, i do tend to agree that, without wishing to offend anybody, you can generally tell what breed of dogs some have before they've even got their dogs out of the car at a show....
<<Ducks head and runs>>

Caroline

Is this a different one than the one mentioned in Our Dogs breed notes for Boston Terrier? The one mentioned there was operating in the North West and is of Asian appearance with an American accent using the names Mr Sherri and possibly Sheriff, Cheema, Malik, Sami, Qasim. The puppies will be exported to Japan, although the breeder will not be aware of that at the time of sale. I think that all breeders that view this board should be wary and do not let the attraction of large amounts of money offered for a puppy cloud your judgement. Check the person out put them on the spot ask for reference from their vet and telephone the vet in front of them perhaps is one suggestion. better than finding out later that the puppy is in Japan.

Yes, for sure this is the same guy. Will everyone please spread the word wherever they can. The grapevine, especially in the dog world, can be a very effective tool. Please remember all the names he uses and tell EVERYBODY you can.

I would like to add some input to this thread: my daughter lived in Japan for 5 years, and we visited them 4 or 5 times. You don't see dogs roaming the streets in the same way as you do in Thailand, or Malaysia, but you do see lots of pedigree dogs being exercised - and I have NEVER seen so many well-groomed dogs out of a show ring area!!

To own a pedigree dog is a status thing: it shows that (1) you have an apartment big enough to keep a dog in, and (2) that you can AFFORD to own one! There are veterinary clinics (large, luxurious ones) at the corner of every area, it seemed to us - and all the dogs were well looked-after and loved! We saw one elderly labrador, being put in a "sidecar" type of arrangement on a pushbike, to be taken to the park, for his little bit of exercise - and the little old man who was riding the bike hardly looked fit enough to be riding himself - but to see the care with which he made sure his old dog was comfy would bring tears to your eyes.

Mind you - I would not be happy to think of any of my puppies going that far away - for a start, the journey is far too long for me (13 hours in a plane) - let alone a dog!!

Margot

The issue is really this - as someone else said earlier, a ligitimate Japanese buyer can buy in the UK for themselves. When it is done in the underhand way described above, one must have reason to worry.

True, there are good and bad buyers in every country, and also spoilt dogs and abused dogs everywhere. I worked in rescue for one of my breeds for 10 years and saw all sorts.

We just need to do what we can to be sure our dogs end up in the right sort of homes, and contact direct with the new owners does help! There should be no place for dog brokers - dogs are creatures with feelings, NOT a commodity.

Pat this is not the same one as the one which was exsposed in the dog papers a few years back is white with a scottish name M. cant say any more. he is still around.

Hi,

My partner also spends time out in Japan,bringing top quality show koi back into Britain for our show and breeding stock,These breeders of koi also alot of them have peigree dogs which are kept in fantastic conditions and certainly not for the diiner plate as either are their Koi.The japanese are very family orientated and love all things British apart from British bred koi :-D so its no wonder many of them will want a British bred dog with good pedigree like we do for their Koi.Many koi breeders what to be sure you will look after their koi and uphold decent values as well.
There are people in Britain I would not let any puppies I have go to and there are good and bad people and breeder in every country.Lots of breeders send their dogs from this country to Australia and New Zealand.The thing is to be careful who give your pups to
find out as much info as you can then make a decision no matter what country your in.
I personally would not send a young pup on a long haul flight my personal opinion.
However I did send a pup to Portugal no problems at all to a show home.
We need to keep an open mind:-)

Briony:-)

Yes, I know of the man you are refering to white male with a surname beginning with (M) I am not confusing the two.

A man contacted me several years ago when he heard I had a year old golden retriever available, wanted it as a companion for mum. When I told him she had endorsements on her registration he didn't want to know, but I said 'you only wanted her for a pet'. Turns out Mum was dead, this 'gent' showed toys and imported toys and was after a golden retriever to breed non stop from to fund his toys.

The word went round very quickly, so it isn't only the Japanese that does this sort of thing.

I'm from the Far East (Singapore)but currently in london. My two Shih Tzus who are in Singapore now, with my family, are originally from Here. However getting them in the first place wasn't easy. I remember having to face many breeders who were unwilling to let their puppies 'fly', citing that it is a sort of suffering. While i admit 13 hours is a long flight but the dogs are kept in a Pressurized livestock compartment in the plane. The amount of discomfort would not be life threatening or traumatic. I flew with my dogs on the same flight and when we landed, they were immediately checked by the vets at customs and i got them home safe and sound.

I'm currently looking for 2 more puppies and It is people like Mr 'M' that make things even more difficult than it already is for genuine pet owners like me. Having to convinced the breeders to allow their puppies to fly is one thing but now we have to convince breeders we are not selling their puppies to pet shops or to breed

The reason why i get my Dogs from here is because, many of the dogs sold in Singapore are imported from Australia. My Vet advised against getting these dogs as they are often from the puppy mill and are prone to health problem. So since i frequently travel to london. What better way to look for a healthy beautiful puppy than to find a reputable breeder from here in the UK.

Being from the Far East and having read this tread, i feel the need to explain. While i will not dispel the myth of Dog or Cat eating behaviour in China or Korea, it is rare these days to find them on our dinner table as food.

Animal welfare might not be as advance in some countries in the Far East as it is here in the UK, but we have certain progress in that department, albeit, little steps at a time.

Even with well establish animal welfare here in the UK, there's still animal testing happening. You often see images of Dogs, cats.....tested, skinned and dead. In my opinion, that is far worse than killing and eating them because of all the suffering they go through during testing. Now before i get bitch-slapped for saying that, i do not endose Cat or dog eating behaviour. It's cruel either way.

So although animal welfare is not as advance as here in the UK, We in the Far East do love our pets, just as much as you do. You'll find cruelty to animals in the Far East just as much as you can find it here in the UK. We're not horrible people, mistreating animals every chance we get, We love them and in fact people do get jailed in Singapore for mistreating animals.

So i do hope breeders are not put off about exporting to the Far East. Judge each case by it's individual merits. There are genuine people looking for pets to bring home and be part of the family. What else can i do to prove myself?? I've come all the way from my country to find my dog, now that must mean something.

Wish me luck, i'm looking for a pug and a mini silver dapples long-haired dachshund. Fingers crossed. Hopefully the great people at Philbo Kennels will let me have one of their mini silver dapples long-haired dachshund puppy. They are so rare ( I think) and so much in demand.....

Whilst certainly not condoning the exporting of dogs without the breeders agreement or knowledge, just wanted to put a positive side to the export thing. Over the last few years we have exported Am. Cockers to Scandinavia, Switzerland, Spain and USA, and a Pug each to Malta and Australia. The new owner of the pug going to Malta flew over, I met her at heathrow and he flew back with her last December, all problem free, but quite a short flight. Last month we sent a 9 month old Pug out to a friend in Australia, yes it was a very long flight, but according to his new owner and the receiving Vet he withstood the trip without any problem , was happy to see his new family and has suffered absolutely no side effects. Have also had dogs fly out to the Far East, accompanied by the new owners Vets, all without problem, have received photos etc and frequent updates on all our exports, and have invitations to visit several of them in the near future!
Oh, and regarding the dogs in bags comment - my Puglet travels around in a "Pooch Pouch" (a sort of doggy version of a baby sling carrier) becasue her little legs are not up to long walks and she loves to accompany the rest of the gang on walks. She gets very excited at the sight of her pouch and loves to travel in it, whats more 2 of the others give every sign of wanting a rid in it too:) Many years ago my Mum had a Yorkie, he went all over with her either trotting at heel, or being carried in a shopping basket (with a headscarf over the top in places where she thought his reception may be questionable! He was no means a pampered pooch, being a farm bred little ratting terrier by nature and appearance (one ear up, one down, shortish coat adn a raffish look about him) He just liked being out and about. Toy dogs seem mto really take to this sort of treatment, and I certainly dont think it does them any harm is done with consideration for the dogs well being.
bye
Gwen