My neighbour has an 11 month old rotty bitch and has been told by her vet that she should allow her at least one litter before spaying her as getting her spayed before having a litter can cause complications further on in life such as phantom pregnancies.I was told the opposite to this when we had our bitch spayed nearly 4 years ago which is why we had her done before she even had her first season.
Can i have as many opinions on this as possible please as i know vets say things just so they can profit from it,which is best to do,have a litter then spay or spay with out a litter.Thanks in advance for your input ;O)

Tell your neighbour to change her vet. Its nonsense, and would suggest to me that hes not too confident in his own surgical skills. In my opinion a bitch should have at least one season (preferably two) amd then be speyed 3 months later.

I find it hard to believe that a vet would say this!!! Are you sure your neighbour didn't misunderstand?? If she didn't, definately change vets to one who lives in this century! Let her have at least one season & then have her spayed 3 mths (ie mid season) later.

At first I thought the vet must have said "one season" but at 11 months old, a rottie has presumably had a season?

Yes she has had a season and the vet is an oldish lady so i have heard,but this is what my neighbour was told..seriously!I just want some good advice to pass onto her.

The best advice you can pass onto her, is to get her spayed. As we all know breeding is not easy & should not be done without a lot of thought/health tests/temperament tests but probably most importantly a valid reason for doing so. & to breed from a bitch just because someone said they should - is not a valid reason & the vet has been totally irresponible in saying this.
I'd let her have her next season, then get her spayed at between 12 & 16 weeks later. :)

What a silly vet! :rolleyes: Bitches don't have phantoms after spaying because they don't have any hormones to cause them. So that is a load of nonsense. I have personally found that maiden bitches have fewer long-term side-effects after spaying than those who have had a litter prior to the surgery. There is absolutely no need for any bitch to have a litter - and certainly not 'for her health'!

If your neighbour wants to have her bitch spayed, have it done about 3 or 4 months after the start of a season.
:)

So, you reckon bitches don't have fantom pregnancies after a spey op?? How wrong you are!! Bitches can indeed suffer fantom pregnancies after spey ops mainly if the spey isn't carried out at the right time i.e 3 months after a season. Performing a spey op too close to or too soon after a season can cause fantom pregnancies. Also, if the bitch has irregular seasons can determine the same affect.

My bitch has just been speyed (5 days ago) and this was 3 months after her last spey - she is now having a fantom pregnancy!!

Cazi, if you read the original post the vet said that after spaying bitches can have phantom pregnancies - in the plural. That suggests more than the one hormonal disturbance following spaying, because that only happens once. Obviously repeated phantoms following correct spaying is impossible. Hope that makes it clearer.
:)

I think both ways around are wrong as bitches, unless there is some medical necessity do not NEED to be spayed, nor do they NEED to have a litter.

:)

Christine

What aload of nonsence .........maybe you friend is trying to talk herself into having pups !!

So if you are not intending to breed, should you spay, as some of the posts on this seem to conflict on each other?
thanks.
Jenny.

Personally I would say yes - if there is any risk of her getting caught by a dog. Others will disagree. It's really up to your neighbour, her situation & if she can cope with hassle of seasons or not.

I agree spay her if they don't want to deal with the heats and a chance of a litter. Phantom's after being spayed thats just the silliest thing I have ever heard :D Don't have a litter by her, plus she is way to young to have one anyhow. Tell them to have her spayed then they will have a lovely pet without the hassles of her going into heat and having males after her as well as wanting to get to the males.

ttfn :)

Matter of opinion Jenny, I would not, well not till the bitch was elderly say about 8 years, but others like to have it done almost as soon as the first jabs have been given. There are arguments on both sides and I am afraid it is your bitch and only you can decide.

If it was a question, that if by not having her spayed it could, make her sick i would get it done straight away.
As i see it this is not the case, so i dont really want to put my belle through this. I have no other dogs so the chances of her getting caught by another dog when in season are slim to none as i am extra cautious around this time.
Jenny.

Ruby is 6, nearly 7. Tonight we found out she is dying of mammary cancer (she was spayed 6 weeks ago just days before we adopted her). The vet told me that if her previous owner had been responsible and spayed her at 5 or 6 months old, this would not be happening. Anyone who says its not healthy to spay or that your dog needs a litter before spaying can tell that to Ruby.

I'm desperately sorry for you and Ruby, Kathy, but don't forget, spayed bitches, and even dogs, get mammary cancer too.
:(

But the risk (according to Brainless's message on the other thread) is reduced to 0.8% in bitches spayed before a season.  Then the risk gets higher and higher with every season they're allowed to have.
Then there's pyo, puppies, stress of having a season, chance of escaping during season....and then the subsequent consequences.
Pyometra can mean death - but in the minimal of cases results in speying anyway, and a very sick dog.
Puppies - a litter (especially an unplanned one) carries many risks.  C-sections, emergency speying, or even death (in some rare cases).  Then there is the fact that the puppies will need homes, etc etc.
Stress of having a season - anyone who's had a dog like our Sky will know some bitches are extremely upset, depressed or even agitated with their seasons.  When they come out of season, some bitches can be unpredictable due to a drop in progesterone (basically canine PMT!).
Escaping during a season - both dogs and bitches will do anything they can to get "some".  Bitches have been known to escape to find a mate, or even just back up against a fence to let the male mate with her.  Worse case scenario - dog goes missing, gets hit by a car...and so on.
And another, all-be-it minor risk (not really that much of one - but still something in speying's favour) is that dog thieves usually target unspeyed pedigree bitches to breed from.  I know that in itself is not a real risk worth speying for for many, but in our case with our experiences (lurcher, been hassled in the street by people wanting to buy her when she was in season and even to the extent where we were followed home) it was one of the minor things we had to think of.
Our main reason was because we'd been through a litter with her (13 pups, we adopted her not knowing she was pregnant) and seen how much it put her through, and she was very depressed and unpredictable during her seasons.  She was also irregular, and came into season anything from every 4 weeks to 4 months.  So we had her speyed.
Her temperament hasn't changed for the worse, her coat is better now she's speyed, and we don't have to worry about her getting pyo.  Cancer will still be a risk for her because she was somewhere between 4 and 6 when she was speyed.

It makes me wonder how I possibly managed, over all these years (first bitch in 1972) to never have an unplanned litter, or a bitch trying to get out to dogs, or dogs hanging round the house,or a pyometra ... perhaps it's all been a dream!

I had one bitch get a mammary tumour, and she died as a result of anaesthetic allergy following the removal operation - which would have happened whenever she'd been operated on. She would have lived longer, and had less pain, if I'd left well alone. That is my guilt - she should never have had any operation.

Our old mongrel dog (entire) years ago died of liver cancer, as did my labrador bitch (spayed after her first season) at the age of 13.

I can't believe my animals are abnormally healthy - so I am convinced the chances of developing cancer are remote. Sad if it happens,of course.

My point is not that these things will happen to every unspeyed bitch.  My point is that many people come onto these boards to learn how to care for a dog, and if they came on here, they'd read that the vast majority say don't spey your animal or leave it til it's mature as such and such can happen.  We're talking new dog owners here. 
I was merely trying to point out what can, and has happened to many dogs because of lack of neutering.
I think it's a bit naive to say that because it didn't happen to some dogs - everyone else should follow their lead - there is a good chance they were just very lucky (and very responsible, careful and committed, something that many many dog owners nowadays are not!).

Quite right, Lisa. It's probably equally naive to take the opposite standpoint - that because it can happen to some animals, then all should go down the surgical route.

There is no definitive 'right thing to do' with this. All dogs are different, with different genetic tendencies, and all owners are different too. So no sweeping statements about 'the responsible thing to do'! The responsible thing is to look after your animals to the best of your ability.
:)

Sorry have to disagree Lisa. I first came on this board with a very sick pup & hoping that someone may be able to help, even tho it turned out to be an extremely rare disease. So not only naive people come on these boards.I had the help & backing of very exoerienced breeders & vets(think there are a few of the old members who might remember?:) ) but I still needed more help. I think there are just as many questions on what is considered rare diseases/illnesses/what to do instances as there are on the common ailments illnesses/diseases. I feel I can best help other animal owners with my experience when/if asked for & if they need it, regardless of experience/time with dogs etc. :)

Christinre Spain.

Wasn't me that advocated early spaying.  I do agree with spaying fully mature bitches that are no longer needed for breeding, or whose owners do not wish to breed.  Not before a year old after at least one season.

How do thieves know a bitch has been spayed?
I just read on one of the links on this thread that the longer you delay speying a bitch, by their 3rd/4th season the benefits of speying to reduce the risk of cancer are totally non existant so it`s not worthwhile doing for that reason only.

Christine Spain.

As I said, it is only a minor thing to think about - but comes from personal experience.  When we took out Sky when she was in season (turned out to be pregnant at this point but was still bleeding) we were asked on 4 occasion if we would sell her, for increasing amounts, by people who didn't normally frequent our area.  Then on one occasion we were followed home by one of the people asking to buy her.  Turns out dog theft, especially lurchers, was rife in our area (don't live there any more).  In the end, after she was speyed, when we walked her and were asked if we wanted to sell her (for breeding and/or working) when we told them she was speyed they were no longer interested.
I know it's impossible to tell if an animal is speyed, but it certainly stopped people pestering us ;)
I know that Sky's risk of cancer is exactly the same as an unspeyed bitch now, but we couldn't have speyed her any earlier, as she was already 4 years old when she came to us!  And she was pregnant, and came into season between every 4 weeks and every 4 months - in the end instead of waiting the three months after a season (we did this twice only for her to come back into season the week she was due to be speyed!) we only waited a month, or thereabouts.
She was very poorly during every season, depressed, snappy, and bled a lot.  I would also like to point out that I have absolutely no problem with the mess from seasons - I have 5 kids and 2 dogs, and a bit of blood once every month or so didn't bother me at all.  I got her speyed because she was poorly when in season - and to stop the risk of pyo with her coming into season a lot more often than the average bitch.
Cancer isn't something we can prevent now in our case (although if she had have been speyed before/just after her first season it would have been an advantage), but we can give her a good quality of life without being poorly all of the time.  Poor lass hated being in season - and we could tell, so we did it for her, not us.

You certainly had an excellent medical reason to spay her, Lisa. Very frequent seasons like that is not normal, so from that point alone she was not a good breeding prospect. You did absolutely the right thing - it was a medical necessity.
:)

Yup - but would like to point out I had absolutely no intention of breeding from her anyway - she was a rescue dog, therefore she's a pet :)
When we adopted her she was already pregnant, hence the pups, not my doing at all ;)

I disagree Christine, that is why vets recommend spaying at 5 months - so they can reap the benefits. This rottie that Angeleyes mentions is only 11 months old, so may or may not have had her first season. If she gets spayed after her second season, the risk of mammary cancer is only slightly higher. After that, the risk goes up and up the longer you leave it, to the point where the bitch will have a 25% chance of getting mammary cancer (not a risk I'd take personally).

Kathy, the cancer risks are somewhat different in this article to the figures you are quoting.
:)

Kathy, I was timed out to add this to my post, but you may also find http://www.flyballdogs.com/fullthrottle/sterlizepagel.html (the link won't work for some reason- even when I put in their own spelling mistake) of interest too.

At least, I would hope so.
:)

Darn! I simplycan't get that link to work, though I can go straight to it from Google. It's full of interesting facts and figures, and references to the veterinary studies that produced them...

I was about to say - the first link doesn't even say where the research came from, so even though it confirms that spaying before the first season prevents bitches getting cancer, I cant take it at face value :)

The second link doesnt exist unfortunately, maybe they deleted it? :)

Let's see if this will take us there - the link "Sterilize or not to sterilize" is at the bottom right.

Fingers crossed!

Hurrah! It does! :)

Also, according to the July 2003 edition of The Journal of Small Animal Practice (see here) other contributory factors appear to include obesity and homemade diets.
(I hope this link works - I even copy-and-pasted the address to be sure it's right)
:)

I knew about obesity - thats a fairly easily avoided cause. I havent had an obese pet yet! *lol*

Also on the homemade diets topic, I think thats more down to the owner being likely to get the diet wrong (its very hard to homecook), but if it came to a study of dogs on a natural diet (eg NatureDiet) as opposed to the commercial dry food, I'd bet a fiver the NatureDiet users would have less risk. The problems with dry foods is that as they're extruded, the proteins make-up is affected, and this can cause all sorts of illness. The main one being of course allergies, but I'll have to read all my papers to see if cancer is an issue there :)

From wading through all these papers and links, all I've discovered for certain is that you can link the deveopment of cancer on anything and everything! Nothing and nobody appears to be objective - they all have a bias in whatever direction (commercial food manufacturers, funding research, are obviously going to promote their products over homecooked food, for example).

After all, even water will kill you if you drink too much of it!
:)

That's how I felt until I heard about Burns and NatureDiet, but I know where you're coming from. The thing that bothers me particularly about the link of homecooked food to causing cancer is that there is *apparently* (reading this online as we speak) evidence to show natural homecooked diets followed correctly help pets with cancer. So I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that wherever it says homecooked diets cause cancer, theyre meaning owners who just cook food for their pets without looking into the ins and outs of canine nutrition.
Dont know how to do links, but here it is: http://b-naturals.com/Sum1998.php

Edited to add: There is a vast difference between suspicions and conclusions though, and it is proven that spaying does prevent mammary cancer if done young enough. :)

I certainly agree that the cancer risk appears to be reduced to an extremely low level, but I have found no evidence anywhere that the risk is entirely eliminated. So, technically speaking, it cannot be said to prevent cancer. I'm being picky with words I know, but only for the sake of accuracy and truth.
:)

You know what I mean - 0.8% chance is nigh on eliminated *lol*. OK so I'll reword it to prevents the risk by 99.2% :) ;)

I know exactly what you mean about the food, Kathy! We all know that, for us, home-prepared food using fresh ingredients is healthier than always eating processed food. But if we only eat home-prepared boiled potatoes and nothing else, then the processed food is better! It's all in the interpretation!
:)

Dont I know it *lmso* - been on a diet for 2 months now (2 stone down so far yippeeee) - it'll all be back on by New Year!

It's worrying about all these different theories on what's best to feed our pets though - I used to swear by dry and now I darent use it. And now theyre saying what I thought was best, isnt. I want to know whats best for Ruby at the moment to support her, and cant for the life of me work out whats best *sigh*.

Have also seen the home-made-diet connection crop up a couple of times - apparently its for DIY diets rich in beef and pork and low in chicken. Not enough knowledge about feeding that way to know if going overboard with the beef and pork is a bad idea, I can't even afford to eat beef and pork all the time, never mind the mutts! But there you go. The answer you get depends on who you ask, I suppose :-D

I read that beef and chicken were bad as our dogs bodies dont know how to process it as they arent a natural prey - but then again neither are cereals, BHT and BHA *lol*. I feed NatureDiet chicken to Ruby, but she throws up off the lamb or tripe varieties :(

Phew thanks JeanGenie :)
That link confirms my suspicion that it was based on old study. The reference to urinary incontinence especially is outdated {13 - Mulholland SG, SM. Qureshi, RW. Fritz, H. Silverman, Effect of hormonal deprivation on the bladder defense mechanism, J Urol 1982 May;127(5):1010-3} as the US studies into it since have disproved this :)
Thanks though - I'll have a closer look :D
Kathy

Serin,i think you may have hit the nail on the head,she's not a friend of mine i just talk to her over the garden fence sometimes,but i popped round yesterday to tell her what everyone on here said and although she still swears blind that the vet did say that to her,she also said she wants to let her have a litter as she has such "good blood lines".What a great reason for doing it eh!! When i said well where are you planning to put the pups when they arrive(our kitchens are very small)she said we haven't even thought about that yet! And she admitted that she really hasn't got the time or patience for a litter she's still planning on having one!

G, this woman needs her head looking at if she is still going ahead with her decision of breeding a litter, even though she said she hasn't got the time for mother and puppies. I think she needs to read a few breed books, get her thinking more of what is involved, 24 hours spent with each pup and mother, as well has any problems that could occure at anytime, so many sleepless nights etc.

Take her a few breed books round from your local library and get her to read them through, see what her oppinion is about breeding then hope she see's sense. As for her vet (if this is what she said) she should change her.

Good Luck.

Thanks,tried talking her round yesterday,as i said she's not really a friend but i am concerned for the dog and possible pups.The rotty is 11 months now and has been kept outside since she was 3 months old,as they work all day she goes out about 8am and doesn't get to go in until about 5pm when one of them get in from work,the dogs barking has caused a problem and she was reported to the council and along with my complaint to her they are now letting her have the full run of the garden(before she only had about 4 foot width by about 15 foot length of concrete)since shes been allowed the full garden over the week end she has been quiet,but surely you can't leave a pregnant bitch outside all day whilst you go to work,i feel so sorry for the poor dog,the hubby even said he'd think about keeping one of the litter himself,they can't even seem to cope with the one they have,they also have 2 kids who aren't the most well behaved children i've seen,no matter what i said they just kept shrugging it off,there's just no helping some people,i will keep at it and if the worst comes i will do my best to try and help the dog as much as i can,i just hope they never get that far.

This woman sounds like she could turn out to be a back yard breeder to me who is only after the cash and not the well being of her Rottweiler and pups. Yes your right, a pregnant dog should not be kept outside but should be kept indoors in her own room with a large warm comfortable bed or whelping box for when pups are born. Did you say her Rottie already has a litter ? I am totally disgusted if this is true as she is only 11 months old and the average age for mating is 2 years old.
I know how frustrating it must be for you, you seem to be doing all you can for this poor girl.....its a pity you and your hubby couldn't catch her if she is a friendly dog and take her to a rescue to be neutered......many places do this for free as all they want to do is prevent any litters. She would be a much happier and healthy dog!
The only problem then, is dealing with her owners, seems you just can't win.

Xena

No she hasn't already had a litter but despite telling her she should wait until the dog is over 2 years to breed it i get the impression she's not going to wait that long,she has said that she'll either find a mate through the kennel club or take her back to the breeder that she got her from and let her do the job for her(which is what the breeder said she'd do if they ever wanted to breed from her!)Which would mean the poor dog being in a strange place with people she doesn't know,being bred,having pups,taking care of her babies until its time to come back home to the same old same old.My hubby doesn't like rotties but even he pities the poor girl,i'm just waiting for the day she jumps into our garden,as the fence on our side is only about 4 foot,easy for a rotty to clear if she really wanted to,and then i'll take it from there!