Thank you Kathy, I didn't realise all the health implications of NOT having my dog castrated, your post was very informative, but I would still be reluctant to have him done now (he is 5). He has never been a problem, he is not aggressive, and NEVER wanders. I take your point about the prevetion of testicular cancer etc but the more bits you have chopped off then of course it means they cannot become cancerous, goes without saying. I have a family history of ovarian cancer but would not choose to have my ovaries removed, another woman in my position may. I think it is a personal thing, each case on its own merit. If my dog became a problem I would consider it.

No probs Sarah - I do agree that its a personal choice too :)

I never said they were being irresopsible I said that I was being irresponsible if I took my bitch to an off leash park where she would be off leash and distract other dogs. In my city the off leash parks are quite a drive from the leash parks where I would have taken my bitches during their season. PLus during this time they are on what I call a handle leash. My dogs have always been tall and well trained to heel. So to keep complete comtrol during seasons I would put them on A leash that just has a loop for your hand and then attaches to the dog. There was no was for another dog to approach let alone mate with my bitch with out me there to stop it. I never had any pregancies to worry about during their seasons because I took extra caution.

I have to say, IMHO, I think bitches in heat should at the very least be kept on the lead. I have always owned bitches so I feel I am in a position to say that. Even if it is just to protect the bitch from having an accidental mating. I wouldnt want some random dog in the park "getting with her". We are always dicussing how many poor cross breeds there are out there, and this kind of irresonsible behaviour from owners is a good cause for them. Also, owners of bitches in heat must know that it drives males mad and they could have half the park following them home. It is just a matter of being responsible.

With my collie, i had her spayed, not only for the health benefits, but because she seemed really miserable confined to on lead walks when out during her 1st season. She is a very active dog who loves her training classes and long off lead runs (and most recently agility classes), but if she was still entire she would go abosolutely mad being restricted with no training classes for 3 weeks. I was not intending to breed from her as she is not KC registered or a good example of the breed. Obviously this is not the only reason to spay and yes it also has benefits for the owner, but every dog is different. Some may be ok confined to lead walks, and probably if push came to shove, Meg would have, but it seemed the best option for her, especially after her false pregnacy following her season. (She was very miserable!!) She got over the op extremely quickly because she was young and has had no probs so far.
In the end its up to the owner as we all have different views and different lives. My trainer's dog has injections to stop her coming into season because she also has an entire dog. Is there any benefits or problems with this?

I have always had bitches and when they have been in season we lead walk only first thing in the morning and last thing at night as a last resort but most of the time take them in a car to a secluded spot and excercise them there. Stops them having a wee as soon as we have left the house to scent mark for all available willing dogs to sniff as they go by!

I will be getting both my two spayed next month as the one has HD and the other has problems with infections and neither of them were bought for the intention of breeding :)

Lucy

Darcy is my first bitch so I apologise if I'm being naive (and probably for not being able to spell it as well :D)
But surely if you're taking your bitch out on a lead you can prevent any mating.

I take Darcy out at 6.30 every morning and that was no different while she was in season, she would go insane being shut in all day with just our garden (which is 120ft) for exercise. However we encounter at least 2 other dogs each morning both of who are entire. I just keep the dog off of Darcy and wait for the owner to catch up. My dog is leaded and under control, theres is not. Bitches cant help being in season any more than dogs can help being aroused by the smell. As long as bitch owners are sensible surely both sexes deserve exercise.

The one thing you have to be careful is the possibility of getting bitten as well when a dog is off the lead and onto the scent of a bitch in season ! It has happened to me :)

Yeah I suppose there is that. Will some dogs with no history of biting do so if after a bitch then???

I know they loose all obedience but I didnt realise it went that far!

That seems very sensible to me Rachael! It really isn't difficult to be responsible! But there are those who make it sound as hard as climbing Mount Everest!
:)

You'd be surprised - I've seen many a litter occur this way - the truth is, if your bitch is on a lead, it just makes her easier for the dog to catch - yes, you *could* possibly keep her away from dogs (and I agree that they need their exercise), but try it with an offlead dog around, and you could either end up with pups, or get bitten. These are *maybes* I know, but still very common and something to think about. :)

On one side of the coin the guy was just walking his dog, and I can agree with that. But on the other side what the hell was he doing walking her off the lead and in a park where he must know that there will be loose dogs. And dosn't he worry that the bitch will run off. Both my girls are entire but neither have had puppies. I am always careful to walk them in uninhabited areas, and that they are always on the leash. We also do what LJS does. Carrying around a big stick dosn't hurt either. :D And what would have happened if your dog had tied with that bitch, the owner probably would have sued

Well for starters I simply wouldnt take an in-season bitch out into a public place! But to let it off the lead as well is really ignorant, as I have seen in season bitches travel to find a dog just as actively as the dog will seek out the bitch!!! :(
I never walk in-season bitches. There is little point as they cant be let off & they would hate to be taken out on a lead.
If I have to take them out, then I always go in the car rather than walk them from the gate & attracting a queue of farm dogs back to the house! When my bitches come in season the three nearest farms all know about it as the collies are disappearing for nights at a time! Wind scent travels many miles!

I used to breed Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, stopped for 10 years and am now building up youngsters again to restart, which means that I have one entire bitch at present, with another due to be born on November 30. Assuming that Hattie passes all her health checks at 2 1/2, I hope to have a planned litter from her in about 10 months.

I also have entire Rebel, who had his first birthday yesterday. Assuming that he passes his health checks at 2 1/2, he should make a fine stud.

I can tell anyone here who hasn't yet had the experience, having even a 7 month entire dog in the house at the same time as an in season bitch is everyone's idea of life in purgatory. The only way I know of coping is to cage each of them for up to 2 hours in turn while leaving the other to move around unrestricted indoors. Both have accepted the situation as normal to them, but so far as I am concerned, well I can only say how glad I am to have understanding neighbours! vbg

So far as spaying is concerned. Over the years I have kept 5 bitches, all except one contracting pyometra (4 well after their breeding life had finished). One of my poor ladies needed an emergency spay at 4 pm on Christmas Day because of a closed pyo, which is so difficult to diagnose!

I made up my mind to never run an unnecessary risk of pyo again after my maiden veteran bitch suddenly collapsed late one night. After rushing her to the vet and leaving my much loved girl there unable to even hold her head up or recognise me, I fully expected her to die during the night. She recovered and underwent another collapse plus a whole battery of tests and vet hospital admissions and discharges. A month later the vet decided she probably had an inoperable colon cancer and sent her home with me for one last quality night together, followed by emergency surgery first thing in the morning. To say that the next night and morning were a living nightmare is an understatement.

In the middle of the morning I got a call from the vet to say he had finished the surgery and had found a closed pyometra. I was told later that it was some strange instinct that had led him to open up the uterus before going to the expected cancerous colon, as the moment he touched the infected area with his scalpel, the pus errupted. Had he gone into the colon first, the abcess would have burst, reaching the bloodstream with fatal results.

That experience was the final straw and there is no way, no how, that I would ever put one of my girls at risk of this killer condition again.

Just as an afterthought: Easter is now 11 yrs 8 months young, leading a full and happy life as both a family pet and a veteran showdog most weekends. She has helped me rear 2 puppies in the last 2 years, playing with each and dishing out the necessary discipline when required. She is in such good health and condition that this summer she won a cup at show for Best Veteran over 10 years at Stithians Show in Cornwall, ending up with a superb rosette for reserve best toy in group. It horrifies me to think that I put either my lovely girl (or those before her) at risk because of a misguided belief that spaying was an unnecessary mutilation.

I sincerely hope that posting about my personal experience here will persuade someone else out there to spay any bitch not required for an ethical breeding programme.

Warmest wishes
Flo Sinclair
ByFloSin Cavaliers
Plymouth, UK

I have had only one female Golden retriver in my lifetime and I never breed her. I also had to do an emergency trip to the vet when she was only six years old. Somehow she got an infection in her uterus causing her to bleed profusely and the vet had to opperate immediately. For this experance alone, I will also nuter any future bitches. Oh my poor little girl!!!
:-(

Wow Flo - what a story, you must've been petrified! :( I've seen many open pyos, and not many closed ones - but I remember one very well. It was a border collie, a small bitch. She really was quite tiny for a border collie, but then again she was only young. She had pretty vague symptoms too, which meant she was near collapse by the time she was on the operating table. The vet was amazed when he saw the size of her infected uterus - and even took polaroids. It turned out to weigh about 4kgs (it must have been nearly a foot across). She was very very lucky to make it, as a closed pyo is a very difficult disease to diagnose (open ones obviously show a discharge - sorry folks *lol*), and by the time their symptoms are more obvious, its often too late. I'm so glad that Easter made such a good recoveryand is enjoying life! Bet she's gorgeous :D

some people are definately born without brains.A rich politician in Kenya allowed his son to keep three pedigreed Boxers.the Idiot did not care for them and the poor dogs would go for weeks without being fed.The bitch went down to 14 kilograms!with the help of the K.S.P.C.A and my vet i took them home and they are being rehabilitated.they are now eating well and Cammi weighs 19 kilo's.Brutus, the male is scheduled for an operation tomorrow.We tried to press charges but the court only fined him 5000ksh,equivalent to 60 dollars!

just a thought which i am thinking of doing mysek, but after the bitch has been out and done buisness why can't you just pop a pair of knickers on the way if she does encounter an entire make then there will be no probs.
You can get ones with pads in for around the house.
Cordelia

D) D) D)

yes
Jane

I do have to agree with you there. Whilst exercising our Bullmastiff Charlie off lead in a park which we thought was away from other dogs, in the distance Charlie spotted a Alsation pup that he didn't take much notice of at first, but I think he picked up a scent which got him charging over to where this pup was, despite all the calls we ended up running over to him. What we saw in our eyes was Charlie playing with this pup (like he does with our other dogs) but the owners saw him as attacking her, when Charlie was caught (all we got from the owners after we opologised were.....that dog shouldn't be off lead if he's doing that) Doing what I say, making friends with your pup who is actually in season and should not be off the lead.....the owners didn't know what to say and walked off.

Luckily Charlie had been castrated at the time but saying that, he would not have been off the lead.....I hate to think what will happen when a intact male comes along after there unleashed female.

I have a bitch at present who's only 1 but I did not walk her when she was in season off lead, she was popped in the car inside the garage and driven, a little way to country lanes to be walked on lead. I wouldn't dream of letting her off lead.
Luckily though I spoke nicely to the "parks groundsman" and got official permision to let her run free in totally enclosed space which is the size of at least 2 full size footie pitches. This is only about 4 mins in the car from us and I know I'm lucky being able to use this. As it's totally secure about 40 foot high wire mesh because they play hockey there too. It may be artifical grass but she never wee's in there or anything, she seems to know it's just for a run and ball games.

Karen