Salem1's posting made me think it was time to relay my own story with a puppy buyer who has really shocked me. I feel it is time to redress the balance a little as not all breeders (as we know) are 'bad people'. Potential owners are way worse in my books at the min.

We go back to the winter of '99 when I received a call from an lady enquiring about my tailed schipperkes, could she put her name down for one out of my next breeding please? I advised that I was not planning to breed again until summer of 2000 she was happy with that and prepared to wait.

Puppies were duly born and I advised her of the whelp and that I did indeed have more than one bitch that I had hopes of being show quality as they grew up. A few days before the puppies were due to leave the Petrol strikes started, I had a call from this lady very distressed as her husband was a 'lorry driver' and they had just returned from their holidays to find all the petrol had been cyphened off their wagons on the yard so they could not afford to pay me for the puppy. I said no problem as we could come to terms on a return puppy from her dog and this bitch at a later stage, I had already had a copy of their dogs pedigree so knew they were well matched. So a week later both her, her daughter and their other schipperke an intact male arrived to collect their puppy. I showed her the 2 bitches that I would have been happy to take into the ring myself and allowed her to chose which of those 2 she would like - she chose the smaller bitch.

Over the next 6mths she would ring for advice re feeding, training, behaviour etc etc on an almost weekly basis. There seemed an endless list of problems they were having with this puppy. I offered to have her back on several occassions no that was not what they wanted - I did board her during their holidays in April and started her training again. I found her to be typical of our breed stubburn excited alert and happy but a tad underweight - which was duly rectified during her 2 wk stay with us. I managed to retrain her for showing and had her doing the job without a lead in no time, unlike her litter sister who was even more stubborn! At no time did she show any signs of the claimed aggression towards people or other dogs that the lady had claimed was of concern to them.

The family came to collect her and I put her thru her paces no problems - the husband was impressed at how well she did her table work and seemed to enjoy it a lot. I should have been concerned when I heard him remark to his wife 'see I told you she wouldn't suffer any pyschological damage back with her breeder!' I gave them my training plan more food and told her how much she needed to be fed daily to maintain a good show weight etc. They duly left me with a happy fit healthy 10mth old bitch who was bigger than her litter sister I'd kept.

My health deteriorated over the next few mths to a point where I had to think long and hard about how many dogs I could actually manage on a daily basis over the next 10 yrs. After a long discussion with my specialist regarding the normal rate of progression of my disability I decided that I could not justify increasing the number of dogs in my household. I rang this lady advising her of my situation and asked if we could come to an agreement regarding payment for this puppy - she had no problem and said she would send me a cheque for the full amount by the end of that month.

I was a little surprised when she rang me again a few days later asking if she could pay me a small amount then and the rest AFTER the sale of a puppy from her first breeding? I said no as I would prefer the matter cleared and suggested a mthly plan whereby the payments would be less and the bitch would be paid for before any litter arrived. We left it with her saying she'd discuss the idea with her husband and get back to me. I received a letter a few wks later saying that she wished to go back to the original terms of our agreement.

Janauary 02 I wrote asking that the terms now be abided by but I would require an independant assessment of this bitchs physical and mental suitability for breeding due to her complaining about the dogs behavioural problems. A few wks later I had my reply (dated the day before my original letter!) Well you could have knocked me over as they say I could not believe the claims of this woman.

She is claiming that she obtained the bitch from me as 'Pick of litter' to be used for showing and breeding with my payment to come as EITHER return 'Pick of her litter' or from the sale of said puppy! Totally untrue at no time did I say I would accept payment from her puppy sale or that she was getting pick of litter - which was the only Male in the litter anyway! She goes on to advise me that the bitch is unsuitable for showing as she 'folds' on the table - something her father did, an inherited condition it would seem! She has not made any effort to show this bitch so how would she know if she was suitable? She goes on to say that the bitch has not developed as hoped and is very small, so small that her vet has written a report saying that she could not safely be bred to another of her own breed! She continues by saying that the KC had adised her to refer the matter to the Trading Standards who would deem the bitch as 'not fit for the purpose for which it is intended'.

She claims to love the bitch Very much but at best she is only 'pet' quality not in fact 'pick of litter' more 'Worst of Litter' and as such she would see her original price as excessive and would deem half that amount as fair!! Well I was spitting feathers I can tell you! I rang the KC and they said she had not contacted them and they would only refer people to trading standards if it was claimed a dog was KC registered then found later not to be. They asked me to send them a copy of the report she had sent me, once it was verified that it was indeed genuine and express my concerns re this bitch and her being over bred or used for cross breeding at a later stage and they would see what they could do as regards not registering any puppies.

After a chat with my solicitor I wrote back advising her that I was more than happy to have the bitch back with in the next 14 days. What the kennel club had got to say re her claims about Trading Standards plus the fact that the KC would not acutally deem a sale to have taken place as she has made no payment towards the dog. I recieved a reply on 29th January saying that she 'shall be referring my letters, etc etc to her solicitor and will get back to me in due course!

My biggest mistake in all of this was to Trust a buyer, to be too generous with my time and knowledge and signing the registration form over to her so that they could take advantage of the insurance offer from the KC. I have learned my lesson but now have to face the worry of knowing that once this matter is resloved the bitch will probably be bred from every season with only every other litter being KC registered, the ladies mother it seems who is in 2 other breeds has had cross matings as well as registered matings and only sells her puppies for the amount the daughter is now offering me for my puppy. I make no distinction in price between 'show potential' and non or either gender or colours.

Sorry it is so long but I really needed to get this off my chest - now all I've got to do is try and get my money or the bitch back both seem highly unlikely at this point in time. Any advice folks?

Hi, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles.
One of my breeder friends had a very similar problem.
However we're in America so we had to deal with the laws and AKC.
Anyway, my friend went through many months of trying to serve the woman court papers, and finally they were served to her. The lady arrives in court and waives a bankruptzy claim to the judge. Judge says to my friend, I guess your out of luck!
Cost my friend $350 court expenses plus loss of puppy/sale of puppy.
And for months she had to go through the process of getting this woman to do the right thing. In the end, the woman got off and my friend has to learn to live with that fact.
Now she gets EVERYTHING in writing, and never accepts checks or payment plans.
I don't either, who needs the headache?
Sorry, but I don't know the laws over there, but it is probably better to take it as a lesson learned and get over it-----a hard thing to do I know, but the stress wouldn't be good to continue especially since you already have some health issues. Also rest assured, what goes around comes around, and they will get theirs.

Hello!

My heart bleeds for you, truly it does, this is an awful thing to happen to you, if nothing more it destroys your trust in others for a start off! It is hearing stories like this that has helped me to decide that puppies are only sold outright, for cash only, if they HAVE to give a cheque then it should ideally be one from a building society (the money has to have been there in the first place for them to get the cheque)but even then I make them wait until the cheque has cleared into my account before I hand over the puppy! If they are decent honest folk, as most are, then they will understand your reasons for doing this, I always ask them how would they feel if it was them selling the puppy and me giving the cheque? Never had a problem with that one!!

I also have a puppy sale contract, this clearly states that they understand that the puppy is a pet only and has it's registration endorsed (Progeny ineligible) accordingly, I also state that should they not be able to keep the puppy that if it is returned to me within a certain time period they will get their money returned LESS a £50 deposit to cover my own costs of readvertising the puppy, feed etc. On a longer time frame I will give no refund but will forward any monies I receive when the dog is rehomed LESS my expenses. This only covers the basics, I sign and so does the new puppy buyer, we both keep a copy, any-one who has a problem signing such a contract is politely asked to leave! I always explain about the contract BEFORE I show the puppies to the prospective buyer, I also make a point of telling people about it too over the phone when they make the enquiry, so far I have had no-one refuse to sign it or even baulk at the thought of it, some-one once likened it to a warranty on a car and was very glad that I had thought of it!!

If I am lucky enough to get two show potentials in a litter and I prefer one above the other it depends on who enquires first, but I have sold some very promising puppies to pet homes, after all even a regularly shown dog is your pet for the other six days of the week is it not?

I have entered into breeding term contracts and I currently have one over a stud fee with a very good friend of mine whom I would trust with my life, however we both keep business and friendship seperate, we have a written agreement to our arrangement and I will not receive the green form to register the puppies until the agreement is fulfilled (It is too early to know if I will actually need it yet anyway!) But that would be my advice to any-one, if you canonly get into a certain bloodline via an agreement then get everything down in writing, signed and sealed, it really is the only way to protect yourself, also make sure that it is very plain terms too and try to cover every eventuality, I.E What happens in a puppy back agreement if the bitch turns out to be infertile? etc etc

I hear these stories so often and I find it so sad especially when most of the people who are on the sad end of the affair have usually invested many years of time, effort and not forgetting money into producing a sound healthy bloodline, get written contracts with these people and protect this investment into your dogs!!

Cathryn

Cheques drawn on ordinary building society cheque accounts don't come under the same legistation as the 'bankers' draft' type cheque, and can bounce, so just because it says 'Woolwich' at the top doesn't mean it won't bounce :-(

Fran

I think you'll find you're mistaken Fran. I bank with the Woolwich and when I go into the branch to have a Building Society chq issued the money is debited from my account straight away. It also clears the same day it is banked as the chq is not issued unless the money is in the account and is therefore treated as cash by the receiveing bank.

ALL building societies, except for Nationwide, are now banks and the banking codes apply to them as well. The Woolwich is now owned by the Barclays group.

Fiona

Fran/Fiona

It depends on what type of account the cheque is drawn from and whose cheque it is.

If you are having the Building Society make out a check from THEIR own account after withdrawing money from the customer's account, ie a "paid up share" type account where you have a passbook - then the cheque cannot bounce. In these cases it is the bank promising to pay the money. If it is a cheque written by the customer/account holder and it is a current account then it can bounce. In these cases it is the customer promising to [ay the money no the bank. You can get Bankers cheques drawn against current accounts. Again, they are signed by the bank, not the customer. They charge for this service though, anything up to £20!!!

Just shows how easy it can be for people to be fooled into taking things that are not what they seem. It all seems so inbelievable when you're talking about little balls of fluff - how can people be so crooked?

Here's to safe financial transactions for all.

Pam n the boys, who are very happy after having Buddy win his class and get Best puppy in breed. Jasper got a second

I do have a contract with this lady set out clearly as I always do with any of my Parrots as well as dogs, we had covered the if no puppy born within certain timespan agreed monies instead clause. The problem has arisen because she's is intent on not paying the agreed amount for the puppy or even ANY! Up until Sept 01 everything was fine and dandy as they say.

As my preference is to recover the bitch or at least have proof of spaying and have signed over the registration (I KNOW IDIOT!) I'm hard pushed to force the issue. I can and will take out a County Court order against her if I receive nothing this week - my solicitor will file it for me thankfully.

I have just exported 2 puppies to Germany and nothing left my house until all monies had been paid and contracts agreed and signed certainly learn't my lesson with this woman.

I feel agrieved as her vet seems to think I am some monster puppy farmer and tells me that a 'Breeders contract' will not stand up in court so I should come to some agreement with the dogs owner! My good name is being blackend after all that time effort and support I gave her way more than even my first time schipperke owners. Puppy farmer 3 litters in 7 years very big business I got going here lol.

We have to deal with bad press from Vets and puppy buyers as it is, through no fault of our own in most cases - seems no matter how hard you try being a dog breeder is just a dirty word. Puppy buyers expect guarantees all tests for the breed done, integrity of pedigree, early socialisation, even housetraining and a place to bring their dogs back to board during their holidays at a lower price than kennels.

I have orders for my dogs from Holland, Sweden, Canada and America let alone the people in England who are prepared to wait for a puppy, but after all this I just wonder if I should bother for a long while yet.

On the bright side I have the good which is 99% who send me cards with pics, phone calls, emails and so on who really are very happy with their little bundles of joy.

Thanks for all your replies, I really needed to whinge about this and not feel like such an idiot (hopefully)