Hi,Somethings been puzzling me and i thought i would ask the reasons behind it without hopefully rocking the boat....Why are breeds of dogs restricted to certain colours???Why i am asking this is i looked at a litter of Dalmations on sunday and in the litter was 2 lemon and whites...of course lemon/blue/brindle etc are not recognised colours of the Dalmation.Why not??..Surely all these colours have been about for years probably long before (may get corrected on this) show/breeders and the kennel club even existed..Why are these colours not recognised??,yes they can be registered and make great pets but why not can they be shown and bred from and open up a wider choice in colours and future of the breed..Why have the black and livers prevailed and have recognition and other colours dont'??who has decided this over time??..I am not trying to put anybodys back up but this must run through most breeds of dog...

Hi,
I can only speak for dalmatians, but these 'non-standard' colours are very unusual. I have been (occasionally) breeding and showing dalmatians since 1973, and I've never seen a non-standard colour! If they became accepted, then their rarity would make them (to the puppy farmers) desirable, and they would breed purely for colour, letting construction, health and temperament go to the wall.

End of the breed, that we love, as we know it. :(

Hi,Regarding the Dalmations,speaking to the breeder he told me he has great problems finding homes for lemon pups so i dont' think there would be a problem with puppy farmers as far as that point is concerned..Every decent person is worried(mega worried) about puppy farmers but does this mean that the breed (any breed) cannot be furthered in case puppy farmers got hold of an unusual colour??Do breeders/exhibitors not owe it too the breed to keep the rare colours going??These colours have existed since dot even though they are rare,why not attempt to get these colours recognised??How does a certain colour get recognised??what is the process??

When the last Disney film came out :(, there was an upsurge in interest in extremely lightly-marked lemons because of one of the 'stars' (also blue-eyed) - physical traits which are strongly linked with deafness.

People who truly care about a breed will not want to 'further' anything linked with physical handicap.

The KC breed standards are written by the members of the breed clubs. Any change can only be put forward to the KC by the clubs, following a positive vote of the clubs' membership. So if anybody wants change, join the clubs ......

Hi,I was always under the impression that deafness was linked to the white gene/blue eyes..If this is the case the lemons and other colours can have different colours eyes so this would not be a problem,i.e. lemon,blue,brindle etc has not been linked with deafness..There are alot of dogs that have health problems including Dalmatians for deafness..Does this mean that breeding of Dalmations should stop now because any person who cares about the breed would not want to bring even 1 puppy into the world that may be deaf??..It is not the colours of lemon,blue,brindle etc that in effect increases the chance of deaf puppys..I am sorry if i am being thick but i still dont' get it!Would the same view be thought about blacks and livers if the norm was to have say lemons and blues??Is it a case of the breed clubs and the kc are stuck in there ways and dont want to break from the norm in case some breeders are upset??(no offence intended)

No, you seem to be missing the point!(Or else I'm putting it across extremely badly!) The only reason to change a breed standard is to improve the well-being of the breed. That is the most important thing. Emotions are of no consequence. How would it improve the breed to promote (which is what acceptance would do) something which occurs with maybe one in 10,000 individuals?

Some colours are also frowned upon because they hark back to other breeds which are either very similar or could have been used in the breed in the dim & distant past. For instance, Buhunds (in the UK) can be wheaten, wolf sable or black. The wheaten can be any shade from almost cream to a rich biscuit colour BUT it shouldn't be too red because then the Buhund would look like a Finnish Spitz. The standard used to say not Finnish Spitz red, but now breed standards can't name other breeds, so it just says red not to dark. Wolf sable is allowed in the UK but not Scandinavia because the Scandinavians, I believe reckon it shows Elkhound blood (& they do look like little Elkhounds too!)
In the same way, altho' it isn't stated in the standard, blue markings on the tongue of an Akita are undesirable, because it's a characteristic of the Chow.
I am in no way a colour fanatic myself, but colours, as stated in the standard are there to help preserve the unique identity of the breed.

The whole unusual colour thing is a can of worms, using the term "rare" often implies it is valuable and sort after, this is often latched on to by the puppy farmer types, who market mismarked/unacceptable colours as rare and therfore pricier. In so many breeds the unacceptable colours come associated with some sort of health risks (white, merle etc) and therfore there are valid reasons why they are not desirable. In my breed Sable is acceptable in the UK and under FCI rules, but not in the USA. The majority of sables over here are not of awfully high standard, and the people keen on them seem to get so stuck in the "colour" rut that they are ignoring the rest of the dog!

When it comes down to it, it is pretty much the same as saying why should any breed point not be disgarded? Some adorable dogs are born with poor tail sets, light eye colours, wrong bites, wrong coat texture etc etc, the fact remains these are all faults in the eye of the standard, but dont effect the dogs life as a loved pet. Nor do they count as "rare" even though they affect only a small percentage of the breed.

I have never seen a lemon spotted Dalmatian, is it actually an ackowledged problem in the breed? Or is it just a watered down liver spot?
bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen,
The two most 'common rarities' (now there's an oxymoron!) in dalmatians are lemons and oranges. The spotting in both is pale (the colour seen in pointers), and the nose and eyerims in the lemon-spot are black, and in the orange-spot they are liver. They'vealways turned up occasionally, but are not common at all.
:)

thanks Jeangenie, you learn something every day! Still dont think I have seen one.
bye
Gwen

Hizzy,

Rare = undesirable in most breeds, for all the reasons other posted have stated. Breeding to preserve any one trait is usually a recipe for disaster.

In Cairns, any colour but white is allowed. White is not allowed because until the 1920s Cairns and Westies were interbred. When the breed standard was developed a white coat on a Cairn would have meant that the puppy was a mix of Cairn and Westie - not pure Cairn.

Stacey

Did anybody see the ad for the white dobe,couldn't believe my eyes £1100,spoke to a specialist and unofficially judges have been told not to place them first even if form is excellent,so,is this fair or unfair????this could be a can of worms i've opened here.sandra.

Hi Sandra, Is it fair depends on if White is allowed in the Breed Standard, if it is not, then it's not a case of judges told not to place them first, however excellent the confirmation if it has what is recognised as a "disqualifying fault" then it should not be placed at all. I could have the most beautifully conformed Am. cocker in the world, but if it happened to be a solid colour (Black, B & T, choc. etc) and had a small white marking on its flank, then it is disqualified. A departure from the breed standard which is not permitted is just that. However, if it happened to be an acceptable colour and some sort of "cartel" of judges happened to have a personal grudge against a permissible colour/breed point, that is a different matter. I remember there was a lot of Basenji colour argument a while back, anyone remember the problems?
bye
Gwen

This specialist thinks it is only a matter of time until it is really popular and she cited the white german shepherd as an example,who knows,but they can be kc reg but I honestly don't know what the breed standard says for a dobe,will check it out.sandra.

If I remember rightly with Basenjis, some people wanted to have brindle included in the standard, others argued that you couldn't get brindle from pure bred Basenjis. I think it was proved that you could & it has now been accepted - but I wouldn't swear to it
You have to remember that most breed standards were drawn up before there was much knowledge about colour genetics.
We don't have disqualifying faults in the UK. All faults should be judged on their seriousness & since even small white markings in the Dobe are considered highly undesirable, I shouldn't think any judge whose opinion means anything would need to be told what to do!
Does anyone remember the big case of the standard Poodles? A white bitch was supposedly mated to a white dog & produced a black puppy?

Hi Anwen, spend too much time talking to Americans ie the "Disqualifying fault":)!. In my breed white marking are "not permitted"in the UK which pretty much adds up to the same thing. I think we both agree then,that no instudtion to judges are being given in an underhand way not to place a white Doberman! Like a white Boxer (or GSD0 they do not conform to the standard so cannot be shown. This does not make them rare and valuable, it should make them cheaper as having a severe fault against the standard! Only those out for a quick buck try to feature the "rare" handle for incorrect colours, which pretty much takes me back into a full circle to my first post on this subject. So Hizzy and Sandaharr , anyone trying to push these mismarks as rare and more costly are likely to be unethical and out for a quick buck, either playing on people sensibilities about "look at my gorgeous pup, those biased show people dont know what they are missing" or "this pups colour is so rare you will have one of a kind, wont see another, everyhone will want one". They play on the novice owner and line their own pockets without thought to the good of the breed. Lots of responsible breeders get mismarks occassionally, most of us see them happily settled into pet homes, usually at a reduced price! Sandaharr, dont know how much of an "expert" the prerson is who you were talking to, but in most breeds the existense of a pure white is often linked to deafness, so is highly undesirable for very good reason.

bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen
Agree with everything you said. It's gullible people's desire to be different which makes the market for these "rare" dogs.
Let's not forget that, strictly speaking, white isn't a colour at all - it's an absence of colour, so people buying these "rare" whites are paying for something which isn't there :D

I find it strange those who want unique should be going down to the dogs home and getting a right out and out Heinz 57, Bitsa, or thise who don't mince their words, Mongrel. That is the only really unique dog they will find.

The whole purpose of pure breeds is the fact that they are a predictable shape, colour and have characteristics more in common with each other than with other canine races.

Hi Gwen,the expert is actually a judge and they all abhor this white thing in the dobes,wouldn't catch me buying one for a £100 never mind £1100,sandra.

Hi Sandra, someone who judges Dobes told you Judges had been quietly told not to place White ones 1st or 2nd? If, as we have established, they are not permitted in the standard they should not even be in the ring, let alone under consideration. Everyohne who shows at least hopes the judge has read the Breed Standard! This isnt the same person actually asking £1100 for one, is it?
bye
Gwen

It's important to remember that any KC registered dog is eligible for entry at shows. However, the judge is permitted to withhold awards if s/he considers the entry isn't worthy.
:)

Hi Jeangenie, many faults disqualify you from the ring, eg overweight mini dachsis, over height poodles to name just a couple who are activley checked against the standard whilst in the ring. In most other breeds faults which are precluded by the standard would normally mean that the dog was unplaced. My point to Sandra was I couldnt understand the 'expert' telling her judges had been quietly told not to put the white dobes in 1st 2 placings! No judge who understood the standard should consider placing a dog who is blatanlty outside of the permissable. I am not talking about fault judging here, but judges recognising what is not allowed.
bye
Gwen

I'm not challenging your expertise, Gwen, but I didn't think the KC had any 'disqualifying' faults in any breed? I must be out of date (no surprise there! :o ) When did they come in?
:)

As far as I'm aware all the KC breed standards still carry the following:
Any departure .... should be considered a fault & the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree .....
Says it all really.
No dog is or should be banned from the ring. Oversize/overweight/wrong coat or colour should all be judged by the above. If judges do blatantly disregard the standard, they do so at the risk of their reputation. If you don't like what a judge does, you don't support them next time.

Hi Jeangenie, Well in ring weighing and measuring has been going on as long as I can remember for the relevant breeds.
bye
Gwen