Hi There,

I hope you can help as things are getting very bad here! We have a 13 month old Dobermann called Fred. We have had him since he was 10 weeks old and he is a great dog, no problems with other dogs or people not aggresive, happy it seems and obedient, doesn't pull on the lead, sits and downs when asked and stays for a short time. Then he is let off the lead, he just goes mad running and running and running (he is taken out for two good walks each day for approximately 1 to 2 hours each walk) he has always been so so at coming back but slowly he has been getting worse and now this week he has gone into a different sphere. 2 and a half hours the other day and he didn't come but ran all the way home with me in pursuit!

Here is what we have tried.

1. treats and praise from about 12 weeks old to 7 months (slowly getting more and more reluctant to return) especially with other dogs around.

2. praise only and a ball, he now has a ball thing and no ball in the park no matter who it belongs to is safe. (returning very slowly or running by at speed and not stopping)

3. 10 months old walking to heel off lead but bolting and returning only when he feels ready (about 5 to 10 minutes stints)

4. Using a line, but he will not go to the full length no matter what distractions, if I ask hem to go away he will and come back before he has reached the full extent of the line. He will come back whenever called on the line instantly.

5. Have seen a trainer he advised throwing a rattle near him as speeds pass us whilst shouting no, this will stop him in his tracks in an enclosed space where we can get close to him but in the open he goes to a distance where this not an option.

At present I'm trying to be more disciplined with him, making him stay out of rooms we are in until called and walking on a short lead etc.

As mentioned he is a good dog apart from this problem, I am now a the end of my tether and just do not know what to do.

If you can give me any advice that would be more than appreciated.

many Thanks

Can I ask what is the theory behind throwing a rattle at the dog as he goes past? I would have thought this would scare most dogs, or at least make them wary of what their crazy human might do next......

Re recall - you are battling one of the most powerful forces known to man if he's not neutered, but I'm not going to suggest you 'get him done' if you're prepared to work through this problem. Maintaining a level of respect in all things helps - this isn't dominance - it's just teaching the dog that what you say goes. Maybe more time with the long line, reducing the length/weight of it until you're left with a short stump....

One old trick that is not often mentioned now is to use the dog's food as a reward, so if he doesn't come back, no dinner! Sounds drastic, but i don't see why not if the problem is bad; of course one would recall lots and feed lots, let go again etc... and also be aware of the slight danger of bloat if dog eats a lot of his dinner and then runs a lot etc.

A bit difficult with wet food, too LOL ;) :D

Lindsay

I think the rattle is to try and get the dogs attention, when he is off he has no eyes for me. As you can imagine even though he is a gentle dobermann many people are worried at the sight of this breed running around. I think it is my duty to do whatever it takes to get a perfect recall for his sake and mine. Having tried the treats and games, running away, hide and seek etc it looks like as if the measure is a scrict regime for Fred! At the end of the day I want to see him off lead running and enjoying himself that's what I purchased a Dobermann for.

Have you tried hidding from him? our stafford used to do this,and when we were at dog training one night we were talking about it and they suggested that we let her off the lead and hide so that you can see them but they can't see you.As a result she looked back and couldn't see us,ran past us twice but still didn't see us,she started to panic!running round trying to find us and when she did she was so pleased to see us,and has never run off since.You could also try walking the opposite way to where he's running.If you run after him he will think he's top dog [as in his eye he's leading the pack] you can buy a book called 'the dog listner' and it will help you in your situation but you must put all the principles into action and be consistant with them.
cheers vicky

if you run after him he will think it is a great game! try turning in the opposite direction and running........very likely he will chase YOU!

have been told today that having him snipped is the best solution, it seems a bit drastic but guess it will have to be done.

Could you explain how castration will be the solution to your recall problem?

makes your eyes water..... and i'm not even equipped!

Hope you sort it out, if it's any consellation my dog walker has a dobe and her one started to do the same thing when he was about 13 months old, she used to do the hiding thing (as previously mentioned), didn't stop him completely, but he wouldn't run far before stopping and looking back! ;)

Castration will not improve his recall, training will. Our dog was castrated at 6 months and only at 13 months is he 96% reliable on recall. It takes lots of time to train a dog especially if its your first, so dont despair. Hiding/running away does help, as does keeping the dog on a lunge line until he learns he cant disobey. Dont call him until you get his attention or he learns to disobey. We used the daily food to focus our dogs attention on us and it does work, and we choose to let him off lead in large open spaces where he shouldnt annoy people. Its worth checking Fred knows his place at home as well, but Im sure you know this already. The thing is to keep reinforcing your position as leader/best friend whatever daily. Clever, fun loving dogs are a handful at this stage but sooooo worth it. :)

Thanks all...the reasoning behind castration is the fact he will not be looking for a bitch. Seems to have pros and cons having said that I understand it is good for a dogs health in the lond run. Just not sure what to do!

I have often found that even when a dog (or normally bitches in my case) won't come back as they are having a stubborn session they will still sit - provided you can get their attention and then you can go and get them. I have one bitch who when she was a youngster I had to do this at a field's length as she would not come but would always sit and wait for me.

If you find this does work then praise lots and give treats or play, whichever he responds to best. Then do some recall training on lead to reinforce the command

Good luck

Christine

Thanks for the support, he used to do the sit a distance thing allowing me to walk up to him but now he's given up on that as well. I'm using a line at present and he doesn't do thing wrong, walking to heel, staying sit and down at 30 feet away and to top it all he comes every time and sits right beside me! He never goes to the full length of the lead no matter what even if he's got another dog in his sights. I know only to well though that if I let him off he'll be gone so far I doubt he could even hear me. What i don't understand is the fact that he's been given so much exercise off the leash and called back loads without being hooked up..what's he got to fear about coming back to me?

Hi,
My two boys were very much the same from about 10 months to about 18 months. It's adolescence! They start to 'find their feet' as individuals at that age (think of teenage children) and need to push the boundaries. If they are reasonably well-trained before this age they invariably return to it when this phase of development has passed.

Castration will only affect hormonal and sexual behaviour. Is he running after bitches now? If he isn't, then castration won't affect his recall at all, because it isn't sexually motivated. When this adolescent hormone surge settles down to its adult level (at this age it is about 3 times higher) his behaviour will change with it.

Hope this helps.
:)

I agree, the key is to work out why he is running off - a friend's beardie was trained really well but lost it in adolescence, and she was so demoralised and he was stressed because she was, and she loathed letting him off lead etc... she was also prepared to work through it, but the problem is that sometimes the lack of recall can become learned and is very hard to retrain reliably after many months of hormonally charged not coming back !!!

She did have her boy castrated after agonising all the pros and cons, (and we all agonised with her!) and a the improvement was almost immediate. Her whole relationship improved and dog and owner are now happy and training is fun again. In her case it really was the right hting to do as the sheer stress was just doing her head in :( but it's not a route i would recommend to everyone, each to their own :)

Lindsay

Can you walk with anyone else? If they hold the line you can get further away from him (and whoever is holding it can give a quick tug to get his attention AS you call him). If you can do this then try practicing with lots of distractions - other dogs, throwing a ball past him, what ever it is that triggers his selective deafness. If you cant get anyone else to hold him they I wonder if tying him to a tree would work - provided he knows exactly what the line is and will not run to the end and damage himself.

Christine

Aldus
Its hard to believe that people calling themselves 'trainers' stoop to such advice as mutilate to change behaviour, which it probably would not do anyway, just what has UK training come to?

I know a specialist Dobe trainer, he does not charge anything for assesment except travell costs, if you want to contact him you can contact me and I will forward his email address, good luck.
fg_mlo@yahoo.co.uk

Dennis Carthy, you have been banned from this forum!!!!!

He just can't keep away, Lindsay!
:)

...problem is Fred is like the perfect dog on a line, but once off the line he goes into another mode. I've had him on the line all week and in enclosed spaces (tennis courts where he comes back every time) off the line, when do you think I should let him go free in the open? As mentioned he comes back without fail as long as he is attached me!

Have you tried letting the line drag behind him and then gradually cutting the line as the weeks go by so that it gets shorter and shorter? :) That sometimes works with lots of recall practising.

What did you think of the suggestion to use his dinner? ;)

Lindsay

Cutting the line shorter sounds like a good idea. Maybe making the line lighter too so he doesn't notice over a period of time. And he thinks he's still attached to you " and he comes back when he thinks he is ;) "

Karen

Sorry , no solutions. Just wanted to say I had a dog exactly like Fred who was returned to me at about 17 months after his owner had a heart attack (don't think it had anything to do with the dog!) He was castrated for a different reason, but it made no difference whatsoever to his running away. He was also intelligent enough to know that he had to come back if he was on any sort of line, but he didn't have to if he wasn't attached.

I do agree, very often castration doesn't help at all - so much depends on what i like to call the X factors! :) and we don't always know what those X factors are.

The whole relationship is important and hormones may or may not play a part. Most owners do go through a bit of a problem phase though during adolescence, and the obedience often returns, so long as things have not been allowed to get out of hand, as maturity arrives :)

I would never recommend castration as a "solution" - in my friend's case.... she was so unhappy and so was her dog, and also it was obvious from her boys behavoiur that hormones were playing a big fat part in his lack of response ;) Interestingly he doen'st mope around the house so much now either, so he seems happier as a dog.

Perseverance is often the most useful tool in training!

Lindsay

thanks for all the suggetions, what does shortening the line do? i haven't tried the food yet as i'm not letting him off the line at present. not sure when to let him off the line to see if progress is being made, any ideas how long i should give it before i let him off to check his recall. thanks

With the line being shortened, he realises he hasn't been let off, so is likely to think you are still able to hold it. (This is where the relative simplicity of a dog's mind is helpful!)
:)

My Beardie boy was like this and I was in despair but I stuck with it and I can truthfully say he's a joy to live with now. I thought about castration (and murder :-D) but after trying the Tardac(sp) injection he was just the same so i just persevered and he is fine now.
Anne

oh..i haven't let go of the line as yet..he's so quick i wouldn't be certain i'd get to it if he makes a dash for it. looks like i've got a long long way to go!

Stick with it - I'd be surprised if you HAD let go of the line yet - it can take months to establish a good recall, and the best ones aren't rushed, the more chances a dog gets to reward himself by NOT coming back for a recall, the harder it will be to get the desired effect ;)

Hello, I had perfect recall at 12-16 weeks old (she was to scared to leave me I think) then intermittent recall like (Sal had the see that dog I can get to it before you do attitude) then something went wrong she hit 10 months'ish and the "I am a big girl now see me run away" teenage phase.

On our own no other dogs on the horizon and she's great, even with dogs about she's 95% there. But I tried the line and it works, slowly but surely she is remebering what she already knows, that she needs to come back when I call her regardless of what she's doing. But must admit with all these idiots letting fireworks off I keep her on the line now (just in case)

Persever and I am sure you will get there.

Karen

Oh Aldous! How I chortled reading your post! I too, own an adolescent Dobergit and in the past, I have posted-a-plenty about his appalling recall. But now, at the grand old age of 2.5 years, he's grown into a big bouncing boy with a 98% recall rate. It was sheer hard work laced with plenty of stress & topped up with vodka.

If your chap is true to form, then I'm sure you can look forward to many months of shouting yourself hoarse as you watch his tanned hide disappearing over the horizon & losing it as the little bugger prances away merrily just beyond your reach.

Dober-dogs are such atheletes - they have endless energy they need to burn and it's sheer poetry in motion to watch them run. But harnessing all that energy as they grow bigger, stronger, fitter in adolescence is tough, just hold on and look forward to the day when he 'finally gets it' and prefers to be with you rather than 10 miles in front.

You can try all the various methods, techniques, gadgets, expensive trainers, old wives tales people throw your way - all I can recommend is building up that bond with your dog.

I wish you all the very best. Keep us posted and when Christine from Kerioak Dobes shares her wisdom - listen up! She's a top bird and knows what she's on about!

Lady G

Why thank you Lady G - you'll make me blush.

Like many people I tend to write from experience and having had dogs just about all my life and really learning about them once I got my own I have now had quiet a few experiences!!! Including Rio slipping over last night, limping this morning, vet this afternoon and goes back early tomorrow to be x-rayed and plastered as he thinks he has broken his foot. :-((

Christine

Sorry to hear that Kerioak! What was I saying yesterday about dobes being intelligent?!

Lol LadyG. As the owner of a big hefty teenage boy dobe owner myself your post had a particular resonance for me. Only this evening Cam tried to drag me across the floor of a crowded pub to 'say hello' to a packet of crisps that a poor, unsuspecting individual was holding onto. :D

Jo

Hi Aldous

Does Fred play - ie does he have a toy that he is fixated on. If so it may be worth keeping this as a reward solely for doing recalls?

Christine

hi christine, funny enough he isn't that interested in toys but show him a squirrel and then he has fixation big time. this line thing is lulling me into a faulse sense of security though, he comes back every single time i ask him to no matter what the distraction, he hasn't been let off for a run for a week now...dare i let him off this weekend?!

Hi Guys,
How long is the line that you're using? I use lines varying in weight and lengths up to 60 foot. As long as you use a fairly light-weight line, by the time he gets to the end of it, he'll probably think that he's off-lead.
A friend of mine with a lurcher used to use a 100 foot line to practise recalls-It took a good year to sort the problem out, but she did it. My only advice is to have him on a lead as normal, when you want to let him off, clip the long line on and unclip his lead, but make a big deal with the 'clicking' sound when you take his lead off.
Remember though, if you're using a very long line, you can't control the SPEED of the recall. (Had to add that as I've been the victim of my pup running straight at me from 40 foot away. The field was muddy and as he put the 'brakes' on, he skidded into me.Ouch!!).
The other thing is that when you've recalled him, praise him and let him go straight off again, otherwise if he thinks that thats the end of the free running, he's unlikely to come back anyway.
Be brave and let us know how you get on.
Ali:)

cheers ali i'll give a longer line a go, at the moment i've only gone to about 300 feet. i've tried the clicking deal but he knows his still connected. funny thing is i always used to call him back and send him away again (when he used to came back..heady days)