Continued from Long haired German Shepherds

Not forgetting that without those of us who stick to the rules and breed to the standard as laid down by the founder of the breed, you probably wouldn't have your GSD. If everyone just bred whatever fad that they happened to fancy, it wouldn't take long to lose the breeds that we all love.

Nix

Well said Nix.
I trim dogs everyday bred by people with no knowledge or experience. I have slab sided Cockers with long legs the size of Springers - Yorkies with luxating patellas and wooly coats that weigh 20 pounds, many are "the standard size" you understand ;) - Westies with bad mouths and Queen Anne legs. The only resemblance they have to Westies is that they have four legs, head and a tail and they're white! All are bred by people who've never heard of the Breed Standard, but have a bitch with a pedigree and have either used their own dog (rather than one who would improve on the quality of their bitch, but then would take time, money and effort) or the man's down the road, because that's a pedigree too, I'm told! :(
And then someone buys one of those puppies and in time does the same again and slowly but very surely, the quality decreases and eventually the puppies produced resemble nothing like the breed standard in quality, temperament, health or ability.
I consider that I am merely a custodian of my breed and with respect for those who have gone before, do my best to pass on the best quality I can to the next generation, not for my personal gratification or gain. :D

Hi Val

My mother in law has a little yorky called skip. She is a pegdigee (oops sorry about the spelling) She did cost a lot of money for such a small woof! (Oh and as you can see I really have no idea about rasing ped. dogs) What I wanted to say that Skip developed back leg problems when she was a small pup, her knees dislocated. The vet said it is some thing these dogs get due to the other dogs involvoed in the process? Sorry that makes no sense, I think the vet said that it is a gen problem with that breed? So she has had both her knees replaced?! She is about 7 years old now. And is doing fine.

Julieann

Sorry to hear about Skip Julieann. Luxating patellas, those dislocating kneecaps are a hereditary in many small breeds. Breeders with experience know this and do their best to breed it out of their lines. As you've found out, just having a pedigree doesn't mean that you've bought a well bred healthy dog. Having paid a lot of money for such a small woof, I'm sure that Mother-in-Law could have done without the worry and expense in the first year. Thank heavens that these poorly dogs seem to attract lovely homes! I'm glad that she's doing well now.
With best wishes.

thats what it is all about nix a duty to maintain the standard of the breed you have in your trust . I myself love all dogs giant medium and toys. nothing gives me more pleasure than to see them as they should be in the ring. I dont in any way look down on dogs that cannot enter the show ring. I LOVE DOGS .Shadow this discussion wont change the rules in anyway re long gsd. being allowed a different class for the show ring , but as there is a club then I guess all is not lost to show off your lovely dog. you never know maybe the club with enough support will become a company like the K.C. in its own right .

Can you explain what you mean Nixtev ? Long haired German Shepherds are not a FAD, the long coat, the white and the blue colour are all recessive genes that have always been around, I appreciate that there has to be a Standard set, so people can't for example breed a huskyxgsd and call it a GSD, but why that Standard can't include Blues, I don't know, I can understand whites and longcoats being frowned upon for a working point of view, but what is wrong with blues?
I can see the point of the Standard to keep the working aspect of the GSD in mind, but how can some show people, who breed dogs which look like their backsides are on the floor just to improve a 'gait' in the ring, preach on about sticking to the Standard?
As for the 'old english' type, this has been around since the days Shepherds were first brought into this country after the war, this 'old style' is in fact, how German Shepherds from German lines used to look before the show breeders in Britain and America started messing about with them.
My cream longcoat looks every bit like a GSD, he has the head shape, the outline and a far better temperament than many show dogs. He may be a big lad, and a longcoat, but he doesnt look like a husky, or a GSD cross, he looks like a GSD. I am not against the Standard, what I am against is people who breed over angulated, small, narrow headed and bad natured dogs for the purpose of showing then go on to tell me that my beautiful, big, healthy, NATURAL looking gentle boy is a FAULT that should never have been bred!

I have to say the german shep is to my mind not the same shepherds I grew up with , and I did make a comment on this board at how sad I am to see the once proud noble breed walking with his backside on the ground , if you look back to the post up above me it says I take pleasure looking at them in the ring as they should be . my german shep was a tall upright dog with a leval topline and capable of a long days work which he did . , all I was stating is rules are rules and all the discussion and debating wont change the fact that long hair gsds have no class in the show ring and they wont have , It does not matter how beautiful they are . and the long.haired are stunning . acceptable in the ring is not to say they are not acceptable, it is the standards state longhaired is a major fault . I do have to speak my mind out here now, and that is to say, that some judges would not know the standard if it hit them between the two eyes and that is a fact . small wonder some breeds are sadly gone down the swanee.

I agree with you about the GSD carrying its backside on the ground. I had a GSD when I was younger they are gorgeous proud dogs who stand tall. The breed has changed so much.

Hi Bear,

Could you point me in the direction of some photos of the different sorts of GSDs that are being discussed. I'm trying to follow this thread but I'm finding it all rather confusing .

Thanks,

Fiona

I visited a great site on the blue GSD. They have a pic of a solid blue pup and I have fallen in love, but we have a large dog/cat family so my hubby say's no.
The site is www.bluegermanshepherds.com as well as solid blues they have pics of blue and tans. A really interesting site showing beautiful blue dogs.

Here is a link with a bit of history of the GSD and where the white ancestry came from including what appears to be a ridiculous reason for banning them! http://whiteshepherd.com/jaminken/nobledog.htm

I saw that too. What a lovely dog. So hansom.

If you look at the dogs in Von Stephanitz' book(A must have book for all GSD people)

No long coats

No short legged long bodied heavy dogs the "old english"1950's type.

Blue is a recessive gene of colour paling like eyes usually accompany blue coat colour & this gives wrong expression for the shepherding work the breed does

The white/cream/biscuit is undesirable as the GERMAN sheep do not respond to dogs of this colour

The essential base colour behind all GSD's is Sable-dark grey sable in fact not black/black&tan/black&gold etc

What about solid blues who are so dark they almost look like blacks, are you trying to tell me they are banned from the Standard because they have paler coloured eyes? What on earth is wrong with that? Do pale eyes mean the dog is half blind or something? I don't think so!
What about the grey sables that are a pale, silvery grey, rather than dark, they are not banned are they?
What about the fact that white Shepherds have been around BEFORE Von Stephan ( or whatever his name is! ) and were used as livestock protection dogs against wolves? I heard that whites were only excluded because they were no use on the frontline in the war. Maybe this is wrong, I am sure I will be corrected!!
As for nervous dogs, I don't know about the original dogs in the fifties, but I know now that there are far more nervous, hyper Germanic show lines than longcoats from British lines. Can't comment on the British type shortcoats, but all the longcoats I have met from British lines with no German in them have been lovely natured, gentle, easy to train, calm, and yet some still retain the suspicion of strangers ( my boy has this ) which I think is a desirable feature of the breed, and should not be bred out. Yes they are a shepherding breed, but they are hardly used for this purpose anymore, most people use collies, and they are now loved for their versatility, which means they can work sheep, track criminals, sniff out drugs, work as guide dogs, guard property, and probably more as the GSD can do almost anything, its the best breed in the world!!!!!

There nothing wrong with Light eyes Bear, It's just the expression which is then wrong. The same thing applies to Labradors Light eyes in them give a more malevolent expression. Nothing wrong with the dog but if you want to show it, don’t expect to win much. It just does not comply with the breed standard. So does that mean the standard is wrong? If it was football and the ball passed just outside the post should the posts be widened?

Regards John

A little learning is clearly a dangerous thing

Von Stephanitz is the father of the GERMAN shepherd to not know who he is shows your lack of knowledge of the GERMAN shepherd

You will NOT see nervous GSD's in the german showring they are weeded out by the korung

The noted suspicious of strangers was to cover up Avon Princes shocking temperament which he passed on to ALL his progeny

You should research the breed fully Bear before putting yourself up as such an expert

I've had them for over 40 years & i am STILL learning

Why dont the "Old English"type breeders hip X ray, Blood Test, show their dogs on gaiting collars(instead of cheesewire chokers) ?

I doubt you ever been to a German Korung(breed survey) so how do you know all German dogs are hyper ? let alone a schtzhund test in Germany

A little knowledge is really a lack of understanding

Hmmm...well thats me told then isnt it - not. Katie I never once claimed to be an expert on German Shepherds, nor would I. I know fine well who the father of the Gsd breed Standard is, I am just not good at remembering names!
I know several people with Shepherds from Germanic lines, bred by show breeders, all are hyper and nervous, all were difficult to train as pups, and one person I know couldnt see her pup's mother as she was very aggressive, flinging herself against the kennel wire and snarling, and this bitch is a SHOW CHAMPION. Maybe these are exceptions to the rule, I don't know, but when these are the only examples I have seen ( I have never been to a show ring, you are right about that, nor would I ever ) you can't blame me for wondering, especially when all the longcoats I have met from British lines are all softies.
I didnt know the 'old english' types could be shown, I am sorry but I find it hard to believe when they are a different type from the Standard, how can they be regularly shown when they don't conform to the rules? Can you name any breeders or exhibitors of 'old english' German Shepherds who regularly show their dogs and have success?
I resent your implication that I am some idiot that doesnt know what she is talking about, I freely admit I don't show, so don't know much about the show ring, but I have read books, looked at websites and talked to people, I know the difference between the two types of GSD, I know that there are many breeders and exhibitors of the Germanic types who will say ANYTHING to make people believe that theirs is the only type of Shepherd that should be allowed, and that includes making up total rubbish about non standard colours and types.
Its funny you should mention that its the 'old english' types of GSD that needs to be led around the show ring on a choke chain, because that is exactly what I have been told about the Germanic types. As far as the suspicion of strangers goes, this cannot be defined as aggressiveness, my boy is a gentle big softie, and has never even growled at anyone, but when he is introduced to strangers he stands close to me and just looks at them, he doesnt enjoy their petting and doesnt encourage it, yet he never growls or shows any kind of nastiness. I like the fact that my dog only has the time for me and isnt interested in making friends with other people, what is wrong with the GSD being a good guard dog, lots of them enjoy a fulfilling life with the police force as a result of this 'natural suspicion' so what have you got against it? Is it possible that show breeders don't want the GSD to be like that as it makes them less easy to be handled in the ring by strange judges?
Also, John, I don't think pale eyes make a dog look more malevolant, although I know lots of people will probably disagree as they think pale eyes are wolf-like, and many people think wolves are the embodiment of evil!
But if pale eyes don't mean bad health or detracted working ability then I don't see how they matter, again its just someone's choice based purely on appearance.
I guess this is a topic that can be argued until the cows come home, I for one, have got better things to do than argue with narrow minds, so I will discuss this subject no more, not even to defend myself ( and my level of intelligence! ) against Katy!

This thread is being temporarily hand~bagged :-)

Unlocked again. Please keep the discussion civil.

Please read the 1950's breed standard the "noted suspicious of strangers" was specifically put in to allow nervous Avon Prince offspring to be shown They were NOT agressive but nervous to the extreme so that they could NOT be handled by judges at all.

The police have never accepted nervous dogs & now reject any aggressive dogs. Their dogs live as a member of the family & are required to be calm & outgoing NOT aggressive. Their protection abilities rely on good temperament & character.

As someone who has allowed my late GERMAN import to be used by the police because of his excellent hips(0:0=0)& improving affect on hips in his offspring as well as his excellent character & temperament that he also passed to his offspring. I do have experience first hand knowledge of German bloodlines, not just "knowing people who had/have"dogs from german lines

You clearly are anti the international GSD & pro"old english"alsatians. I suggest you contact the UK GSD club whose members still breed to the 1950 breed standard.

With all due respect Katie you are clearly anti the 'old english' lines and pro germanic. Please stop harping on about the 1950's standard. What matters today is the breed standard of today and the way breeders are producing their stock. Please do not continually imply that ALL old english lines have dodgy temperaments becuase that is incorrect. Having visited the GSD rings when ever possible it is clear that todays show breeders (predominantly germanic type) are not paying any attention to temperament as many of the dogs I have seen are clearly incredibly nervous/fearful. It is also clear that the continued double handling of this breed does nothing to enhance their reputation. Its hardly surprising that the dogs in the ring are so confused with all the people outside the ring calling their names, rattling keys etc. Poor dogs, they really are the owners puppets of the dog world.

Well said, Bear I couldn't have put it better myself. I know of a 'breeder' !!!!! who breeds show standard (supposedly) GSD on German Bloodlines and are reknowned for their bad temperament, hip problems and aggressiveness. so much so that the dog trainers in the area can identify one of their dogs within minutes of it entering the room. This is the kind of breeder that breeds irresponsibly for money as the only motive.
By the way will you let me know the bloodlines your new pup is from as I am on the lookout for a bitch which would compliment Shadows.
I would not hesitate to go back to the breeder I got him from as I trust her completely.
Shadow is black and tan (mainly black) and carries pure black. What colour bitch would you recommend to produce a mixture of colours?

I wonder if you could give me some help as I am getting a little lost on this thread and, on the whole, am finding it very good reading and debate . I am just a "pet" owner. I dont mean this in a derogatory way but that is what I am and I am not thinking of being anything else. I take my role as a pet owner very seriously so that I have a nice, happy, contented dog, who is well behaved and enjoys everything about his life - and I believe that is all I have to do as a pet owner. SO my question is: are dogs bred for a job separately from being bred to be shown? I have read that people breed to get a perfect dog (I only say "perfect" cos I have read posts which say they breed for a specific sort of puppy so hope I havent got this wrong). Now is this a "perfect" dog for the show ring only or to help towards its work it will be carrying out? Or both? And if both how can the dog work hard and also manage to look brilliant to win awards at shows? I have no idea what dogs are supposed to look like in the ring or behave in the ring or whether this makes them different temperaments than working dogs. I am a complete amateur but someone who really does enjoy reading the posts on this site about breeding and working dogs, etc. etc. Am I getting it wrong that these are different sorts of dogs and that they are one and same, i.e. workers and show dogs together? I hope you know what I am talking about as I think this post is long enough and not too boring or silly.
PS Amazon are going to love me cos I am going to get lots of different books as I find these sort of debates really interesting. (Not that I will be entering the debate ever as I will never be knowledgeable enough in this area). I dont agree with all the posts (which is what it is all about?) but wow they are good. Many thanks Gina.

well you have opened a can of worms shadow when it comes to the good old kennel club breed standard for the gsd i myself work for the metropolitan police at there kennels and i am involved with the breeding/puppy side of things as well as working and looking after the dogs that are out on the street, and i also show my met bred dog at open shows.I have read most things that have been discussed and all i can add from my own experiances is that the police are having real trouble with finding good gsds to become police dogs. the ones that are donated as gift dogs a lot of them fail the testing which involves reaction to people, playing with a toy, finding people, its not hard yet a lot fail it, if they do manage to pass it then they will go for x-rays and thats when you will see the majority fail. im not saying all do but if we had 10 dogs come in you could gaurantee that probably 1 dog would pass everything and that is not a good statistic, hence why the police breed there own dogs. Also coat length does not matter regarding a working dog it would not be chucked out of the police service because of that if it worked well it would stay!. regarding showing long coats i went to a show 2 weeks ago and the judge was a germanic judge and there was a long coat being shown and it came 3rd so who knows its what the judge likes on the day!. my dog is of english type and i have to say i would not have it any other way, he rarely is placed high up but as far as i am concerned at least i know he would be able to do a days work if needed, some of the dogs that i have seen in the ring are very nice, yet others are awfull, dragging there back legs along the ground, very thin, or very very fat, bunny hopping, do not look like they have been groomed from one week to the next, and these are all gsd people that have been showing for many years. When i started which was 2 years ago i was not spoken to by the gsd people they stood one side in a group and i stood the other on my own it was only that i knew one of them that gradually they started talking although they thought i should go and get myself a decent showdog, well my answer to that is i would rather change breeds than to conform with what they regard as a good dog, the fashion today is so diverse that i do not see how they can have a breed standard, but thats my opion. I love my dog he is well bred and has good bone,good hips, and is a strong sturdy looking young man, and to be beaten by the not so bleesed gsds is an insult to my boy but i will plod on until he gets some recognition be it a long time into the future. so shadow dont be put off there is always something out there for you to do.

I seem to incite riots every time I post! Glad to hear from you and I think you will be a valuable member of this site, I am fascinated by the police dog breeding programme, and any info you give would be most grateful.
My dog trainer was speaking to someone in the police dog breeding programme recently and she asked about how the had gone about eliminating epilepsy in the bloodline of their dogs, and was told that it had been eliminated and as a result of this EPI had been eliminated at the same time!

What bloodlines are your GSD's? for work, what do you do with the dogs that fail the training? Do you ever buy in dogs from tested stock?

I, like you much prefer the long haired GSD on the English lines and I don't care if they don't match the breed standard, because that changes like the wind as fashion and greed dictates.

God created dogs and who are we to interfere and alter something that was perfect in the first place!

Please keep posting, I am very interested in your views.

SHADOW WAS CLEAN AND DRY ALL NIGHT LAST NIGHT- 1 MESS IN 36 HOURS!!! (SORRY REFERENCE TO ANOTHER TOPIC)

LOL. He must have seen your posting !!!

Yes, they are recessive genes - they are also classed as a fault which is why I see absolutely no need to be breeding from them. There are enough faults that crop up unintentionally without deliberately breeding from them.
Soft ears are a recessive fault - would you condone breeding from them as well?

If you choose to breed dogs, the absolute minimum you should be doing is breeding to the breed standard (not to mention everything else to be considered).
We have a large enough breeding population in the GSD without having to resort to breeding from dogs that have very apparent faults.

The GSD has already been bred purely for size and had malamute blood mixed in and been renamed the Shilo Shepherd in the USA (obviously not registerd with any of the legit KCs).
This is what fads lead to, as once you start ignoring the standard, how do you decide where to stop?

Re the 'old english' type - if you compare what is currently classed as old english with photos of the dogs that were around in the period you mention, you will see vast differences in appearance. Those dogs were finer built and leggier looking than todays 'english' type and they had more correct propertions of depth of chest to foreleg length. They were also not overangulated behind like many of todays 'english' type are.

I'd love to know who these breeders are that are breeding these 'small' dogs cos one of the main problems we have today is oversize.
As far as I'm concerned, these people that you mention "who breed over angulated, small, narrow headed and bad natured dogs for the purpose of showing" are just as bad as those who breed and choose to ignore the breed standard.

Nix

I take your point re: where does it all end, and I have seen your dogs and they look great, but I have seen 'german bloodline bredders dogs' who appear deformed due to excessively sloping hind quarters with all the inherant hip problems that entails. A lot are mean faced, and slightly built, not like the original standard, if you compare show dogs from 20 years ago the majority are mere shadows of their former ancestors. Also a breeder near where I live mass produces mean bad tempered so called show dogs. The English bloodline breeders I know bree purely for temperament, health and looks without caring if they would win a show, as the bred has had a bad enough press and to to redress the damage that has been done.
My dog will probably grow to be oversize but has the bon to carry it and a temperament to die for, and he will be mated with bitches that are not too large, I will not breed for size but for a happy medium for a happy well rounded dog.

I have seen good and bad dogs from both sides, from over-sharp agressive dogs having a go at others on their way round the ring, to dogs that are so terrified of everything they're desperate to disappear up their own backsides and have to be strung up on a thin check chain to allow the judge to go over them.
Its no good continually knocking "'german bloodline bredders dogs' (I take it that should be 'breeders'?) who appear deformed due to excessively sloping hind quarters with all the inherant hip problems that entails" because the the extreme english with long backs, short forelegs and overangulated hind quarters are just as bad.
Do you have proof that sloping hindquarters cause hip problems? One of the poorest hip sires yet identified in Britain was born in 1971, and with 10 lines to Avon Prince, would harldy have what I would describe as sloping hindquarters. Many of the extreme english type don't hip score at all or hamophilia test. You must have found some "English bloodline breeders" that do to claim that they are breeding for health.

There are better breeders of both types who are not breeding to extremes, and are not only health testing their stock, but also taking notice and wisely using the results.

Unfortunately, some are breeding to extremes and are either not health testing, or are paying little attention to the results as well as ignoring poor temperaments and it is these "breeders" (though I use the term loosely) that are letting the breed down.

I feel it is my duty as a breeder of GSDs to maintain higher standards than that.

Nix

Have been following this thread with great interest as I'm a GSD owner myself. FYI she is blue and a rescue case.
What I find particularly interesting, and I'm not into showing so I can't comment on the technicalities of this, but
although you state that blues etc are a result of a genetic default the Kennel Club continue to register these animals.
Personally I think my long coated Blue GSD is one of the most beautiful GSD's I've ever seen. My friends black
and silver is equally as stunning (I know others will disagree) but if they are so wrong and should not be bred would it not make sense for registering bodies like the kennel club to exclude them from registration. I am personally against this (although my
bitch is not registered with the KC) as to me it's the temperament that counts not the confirmation, colour and pedigree
however it seems a bit hypocritical ( and I'm not refering to posts on Champdogs on this thread here) for an organisation
which is, to the best of my knowledge, mean to exist to prevent people being sold cross bred dogs as pedigrees and
to provide a registration procedure to do this, to take money from breeders who categorically set out to breed dogs not of "Breed Standard". All comments appreciated am I the only one who thinks this is wrong. Am I being totally niaive is there more to the kennel
club than I understand? Seems out of order to me. Personally I think it is difficult to breed to the bred standard in
all cases - what do you do with the puppies that don't match up - the country's rescue organisations have enough to
deal with withouthaving to deal with so called "faulty" puppies who don't reach the standards - it's not their fault.

Even breeding the most perfect bitch with the most perfect dog you may still end up with pups that don't meet the breed standard.
I breed horses and I know how devastating it can be when it all goes pear shaped or you don't get what you want
that doesn't mean I would get rid of the animal in question. So long as it is happy and healthy with a good temperament
and a loving home what difference does it make what colour it is or how slopey it's back end is? To create the perfect animal I feel is playing god. Sorry if this offends - that's not my intention. I fully appreciate the need for some kind of bench mark but look what has happened to the minature horses of the world - some of you probably own dogs bigger than the average falabella now!! Just a few things to think about.

Hope no one takes offence to anything I've said - after all this is a board for discussion and differing opinions.

K

The GSD Breed Council has already requested the KC to register the 'faulty' colours as "non-standard colours" on the registration forms of such puppies in an attempt to lessen the chances of them being sold as 'rare', but the KC in their wisdom(?) have turned them down.

Not sure, but I think that because the KC is a monopolly (sp?), they are not allowed to refuse registration?

And you're right, not all puppies are going to be correct for the breed standard, because some of the top bloodlines do carry some of these recessive genes (the great Uran and his son Chris both carried the blue gene) - which is why the non-conforming offspring shouldn't be bred from.

Nix

The problem I have with registering dogs as 'non-standard' colour is that this does absolutely nothing to help those who wish to erradicate colours from their lines. How can you tell what is being produced if all you get are the word 'non-standard'? After all what one person believes is non-standard may not be correct.

Whites are not accepted in the GSD Breed Standard, but you are lucky the KC is still registering them. Australia doesn't and the only way they can be papered right now is if they are from coloured parents, and put on the limited register which means you can't breed from them anyway. That is why come countries have recognised them as a separate breed.

GSD breeders who survey their dogs etc do not want to produce a colour contrary to the Breed Standard, which is why here in Australia, you just don't get them anymore, because culling and careful breeding has erradicated them from the modern bloodlines. Breeding white to white for so many generations (and no mixed with the modern day GSD) has created definate differences in structure, temperament and purpose for the White Shepherd breed as opposed to the GSD Breed. I would have to say the changes (or lack of changes) in the whites are for the better. The way of the future is going to be breed separation for whites. This is the only way whites can improve without getting ostrasized in the GSD world. They do not deserve being "second rate".

The GSD breeders have "gone foward" in breeding and have changed the structure and appearance of the dogs you see in the showring. I am yet to see a white with the angulated topline and roach back as seen in the modern GSD we see in the showrings world wide really. I do not want to be breeding whites like the modern GSD, and also do you think the GSD clubs and breeders want us to be apart of them anyway? (no, they don't).

By the way I have just found a white longcoat male who is KC registered with an export pedigree in Australia! Has anyone heard of Deblyn Kennels? Because that's where he is from. Once he passes all his hip, elbow and hemo tests, he will be very popular down here at stud I think!

Brooke Taylor
President
White Shepherd Association of Australia

url snipped - no sig urls allowed

Deblyn's German Shepherds

Its not a case of "what one person believes is non-standard", it is the breed standard that states what is correct and what is not - any colour that deviates is non-standard. Simple enough, I'd have thought?

The only obvious way to erradicate incorrect colours is to cull.
Do you think that'd go down well?????

Nix

Not to breed from these colours is good enough isnt it.I dont think the poor animal has to die. The breeder should keep the pup until old enough to be neutered.

Sorry I didnt make myself clear. People describe colours that are breed standard differently. If someone described a colour in an 'exotic' manner rather than the bog standard black and tan, sable or whatever what would the KC do? Would they question it or simply put it down as non standard? In poodles they have non standard colours but does this mean that if someone put down a brown as a chocolate they would describe it as non standard? After all the standard says brown not chocolate!

OK then, how long does it take to research what colours are allowed in your breed, and what they are correctly called?
Compare that with how long it takes to plan a mating, get the bitch mated, whelp the litter and rear the puppies.
If someone wants to breed dogs and can't even manage to correctly describe the colour of resulting puppies, then I think they should be penalised for their ignorance.
If your standard has already told you that brown is brown and not chocolate, then why should anyone need to list it as chocolate?

When reading the KCBRS for GSDs, it never fails to amaze me just how many pups are registered as "black and sable". They're either black and gold/black and tan or sable. Sables are then either gold sable or grey sable, so just where does "black and sable" come into it?
If these breeders are displaying ignorance over something as simple and obvious as colour, then what else have they not got a clue about??

Nix

Nix, once the puppies are born its too late to worry about what the 'breeders' do or do not know. My point is that if the KC decide that someone referring to a breed colour in a different way is a non standard when it isnt how on earth will that help anyone trying to properly research pedigrees when it simply states non standard? Surely it is best to PROPERLY and ACCURATELY record details of any dog that is registered with the KC? Otherwise this means that the KC registration is really totally pointless as it wont even be accurate.

At one time Bec, the Kennel Club started to refuse to register non standard colours such as Honey Labradors and White Golden retrievers. These, in the KC's own words would be clasified as "Non Standard Colours". I believe they are now registering these colours again? Does anyone know the latest state of play as far as the KC is concerned?

As far as White GSD's becomming a seperate breed, a few years ago a breakaway from the Doberman people tried the same thing and it was met with a resounding "Get back into line!" so i think that is a non starter.

Regards, John

Can someone please explain who decides colour etc for the standards?? Is it the KC, breed groups/societies and do they ever change and why?? And if a colour is present in a dog's genes and before 'breeding' would have occurred randomly, why are some not allowed??
Sas

Most colours were originally set for a reason. The coat colour is part of the breed standard issued by the KC after consultations with the breed clubs. Certain breed’s loose undercoat with non standard colours so the standard was set to not allow these colours in order that the dogs would be better suited to do the job they were originally bred for. In other cases the colour is part of the breed, whoever heard of a black Golden Retriever!

Regards, John

John, a "non starter"?????

The White Shepherd is already an officially RECOGNISED SEPARATE breed to the GSD in Holland, Sweden, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Denmark, Austria, Norway, Finland, Slovenia & South Africa.

The reason this has happened is because with so many generations of white to white breedings the dogs have developed their own type, temperament and purpose which is different to that of the GSD. The GSD has an angulated topline and hindquaters etc. You can't just call white a separate breed for no reason, in order to gain separate breed status, you must show that they are physically, structurally and temperamentally different. This is what has happened in the above named recognised countries!

Ok, I'll show you:

STRUCTURAL DIFFERENCES:

The White Shepherd more resembles the GSD of at least 50 years ago. The GSD has developed a more sloped and arched back and hindquarters. GSD breeders call this "going forward in breeding" ie changing the dogs structure, as they believe it makes the movement of the GSD effortless and smooth. The White Shepherd resembles the original German Shepherd with the level back and topline. The body of the White Shepherd is slightly longer in than that of the GSD, and the head is slightly narrower and the muzzle slightly longer and wedge shaped than that of the GSD. Longcoat is also accepted in White Shepherds, whilst it is not accepted in the GSD breed. The coat is also slightly softer than that of the GSD. Whites cannot conform to the GSD Breed Standard, not just because of colour, but because of structural and temperamental differences developed over the years.

If you visit some of the White Shepherd websites and look at the whites in movement and in a stack. You will most certainly see the visable differences.

TEMPERAMENTAL DIFFERENCES:

The White Shepherd displays a much quieter character and placid temperament to the German Shepherd, who has a lot more temperament. The White Shepherd is cautious when approached by strangers, unlike the German Shepherd, who has a more forward attitude towards strangers.

The White Shepherd is known as an excellent tracker and obedience dog abroad, rather than in 'Schutzhund' or protection type work, which requires high drive and a certain amount of aggression from the dogs. The White Shepherd takes much longer to take "a bite" because of their placid and laid-back nature, whereas the German Shepherd Dog requires very little encouragement in the field of this kind of work. The White Shepherd does not have the same "high drive" that the German Shepherd Dog has, and it may take months to train him for this kind of work, if at all.

The White Shepherd is more suited to being a family and companion dog, amongst being excellent at obedience, agility, tracking, herding, etc.

Once separate breed status decided or recognised, you cannot breed back to coloured dogs. Whites do not occur in the modern GSD breed anymore. White to white will always produce white, hence another logical reason for separation.

As I said, the KC would not wear it with the dobe people so. . . Originally the colour was set as much as anything because of the coat it carried and the function it was bred for. Now if the "New Breed" is no longer suitable for that job of work, regardless of the fact that it is no longer used in a shepherding roll in this country, into which group would you put it? It was originally its shepherding roll which put it into the Working group so maybe the "New Breed" should be put in the Utility Group?

As to temperament, on this front I would take issue! I have come across some positively evil ones!

Regards, John

John,
Of course the KC rejected the white Dobes. White Dobes have many medical problems – they have no skin pigment, get suburnt easily and also are sensitive to sunlight as they are albinos. No Kennel Club is stupid enough to recognise dogs that have health defects as seen in the white Dobe.

The White Shepherd fits into the Herding Dog category in some countries and Working Dog in others. I’m not sure which category it would fit in in the KC (I live in Australia).

In regard to your comment:
“As to temperament, on this front I would take issue! I have come across some positively evil ones!”

John, there are bad apples in every breed, and I know that GSDs have a bad reputation in most countries as being viscious. The White Shepherd (the recognised ones) lacks the inner aggressiveness that coloured GSDs do. It is a fact. How the dog is brought up also depends on temperament. Maybe the dogs you have seen have not been socialised properly or have been mistreated? I know here in Australia, whites are not allowed to be bred from if they have a bad temperament. This is also the case in the White Shepherd recognised countries in Europe etc. We would not allow breeding from a bad tempered white, as it is not a good thing to pass on (as it is mostly hereditary), and we are careful to build and protect their reputation as family companions and good obedience and herding dogs.

By the way, how many whites have you had experience with?

The German Shepherd Dog is in the Pastoral Group :-)

Are you sure Leigh the Gsd is working in Ireland mari

Yep :-) GSD ~ Pastoral Group

Yep you are right:o . isent that strange how the shepherd is considered working over here . strange lot us mari

Just started reading this thread today, and though it has strayed from temperament matters to standard matters, I just thought I would mention that the only two dogs I have been severely bitten by, were Germanic GSD's. Neither were provoked in the slightest way to but me, in fact on both occasions in different houses with two different dogs. I was bitten from behind with no warning, when leaving the house, after sitting in the same room with them all evening. The dogs had ignored me and so I ignored them and I did nothing at all to deserve it.