have many of you seen the gsd supplement in the dog papers this week,?????? what is the standard for the gsd topline. ??? i found some of them like ski slopes. :( there are some seriously unblanced dogs pictured in it, ---- of course thats just my veiw. --others wont agree im sure. :D

Do you have GSDs Dizzy ? I presume you have the English type from the late 50's early 60's short legs [$ long bodies to make these comments ]) I think the German Siegerin looks nice. but preferred the grey VA2 dog from two years ago for a male but that is just IMHO & of course all the German dogs have working qualifications unlike over in the UK

Just been looking at some of my breed in the papers they are Huge nowhere near the 12 to 18 lbs in the standard & with really heavy heads odd no one ever comments on them ?

you presume wrong!!!! you dont have to own either to see a topline that you could ski off !!! as you no so much-perhaps you can tell me what the standard asks for in topline ??????
checked it out-the topline should be "slightly" sloping from front to back,

as you no so much

I never said I knew so much your posting I presumed was from a GSD owner otherwise why post it

However if you want the breed standard here it is

Back: is the area between the withers and the croup, straight. , strongly developed and not too long. The overall length is not derived from a long back, but is achieved by the correct angle of a well laid shoulder, correct length of croup and hindquarters. The withers must be long, of good height and well defined. They should join the back in a smooth line without disrupting the flowing top line which should be slightly sloping from the front to the back. Weak, soft and roach backs are undesirable.

OK ? Now where does it say level ?????????????edited to add a ski slope now is that a ski jump slope a beginners slope ???

& now to be cheeky what breed do you have that you critize the German Shepherds that work & show in the land of origin

sorry :rolleyes: always thought straight to mean level :D i also wrote it said sloping "slightly" -how many of them flowed in a smooth line. more like camels,
as for why post it---have you only ever passed opinions on the breed you own ????????

Actually yes I only pass comments on breed points on breeds I have owned

But then everyone & his wife in the UK is a GSD expert aren't they

Edited to add Actually straight does not mean level level means it you put a spirit level on it the bubble is in the middle you can have straight lines that are not level diagonal lines are straight lines that join the opposite corners of a rectangle but they are not level lines

no--but a lot of us can work out consruction----!!!!!! edited to say-----------they dont mean humps either,.

In that case why not comment on the "construction"of other breeds as well Some of my breed have bandy legs & dippy toplines & still win groups etc at shows & as for size that is a joke mine are all under 18 lbs & look like puppies

& in the GERMAN dogs please name the"humped"backed ones

because the supplement came out today of gsds, didnt you see any suspect toplines in it at all, ?????????
i wouldnt be as unkind as to name them ----but if you cant spot them, i can only hope you dont do much judging.

& which of the GERMAN dogs is humped backed ????? not the UK ones in the adverts the GERMAN ones at the Sieger

If I judge I judge the breeds I have owned & to the breed standard & keep notes on each dog I judge not just the winners. Just because you define straight & level as being the same does not mean that they are.

I was told by a judge at a championship show "if it moves right it is made right & if it doesn't don't place it" he was explaining why he had given my bitch puppy at 6 months best puppy in breed over the dog who had been winning everything in sight for six months-his name you might have heard of him Bill Siggers, but most people today will not have any idea who he was nor what breed he showed

Type may be an interpretation but movement is not

ok, i'll try again, then give it up as a bad job---could you not see any humped backs in the supplement-??????????-of course remembering that if a dog is pulled out so far behind, nearly lying down it will level so much of the topline off-now imagine it with its legs brought back to a natural stance,!!!! what would its topline do then ???

In reply to your post cavalierfan you always mention the dogs that you have owned, has anyone on this board seen any of them I have been on what I believe to be your cavalier and border collie website but sadly not a gsd to be seen anywhere please be so kind to everyone and lets see the shepherds that you have owned or bred, and please stop knocking english bred dogs they are not all short legged dippy backed shepherds

Janines

Edited to add Don't think I used the word dippy toplines Long body & short legs yes

Sorry I do not have a website as yet as I've only just in the last two years got back to dog showing so do not know to what website you are referring. I stopped showing dogs when I left the UK some 16 years ago & due to ill health cannot have a GSD to train & show over here as they need to have working qualifications I would love to put some of their pictures on the internet but haven't got a clue where to start

You sound very aggressive towards people who do not have your "type"referred to by the majority of GSD people here as the English perhaps I am not alone in liking the German German Shepherd Dog & not the English version or American version. I have looked at one or two English websites & there dogs seem to stuck in a time warp don't tell me this dog has a level back

My dogs were shown from the 1960's to the 1980's in the UK until we came to live in my late husband's homeland.

Oh well I am sorry just that your postings seem very consistent with someone who is also on this board, and no my shepherds have german bloodlines in there also so no I am not knocking any german dogs, like you were when you referred to the english shepherds of the late 1950s. with their short legs

Janines

no, that dog hasnt a dippy back--and the youngster at the bottom of the page is lovley---------- its not that topline im getting at.

Dizzy can you tell me what dogs you are looking at I have lost this at the minute

Tracy

the ones on the link--landellas

Rite they go back to Ch Mortoff Marcus the same as mine theyre nice dogs

Janines

The dog on the link is Lornaville Sea Bird & not the one you named Dizzy landellas

It doesn't have a level back either

Hi cavalierfan at least its not dippy nor humped just gently sloping thats what the standard call for isn,t it

Janines

No its not I do not consider that a gentle slope either The dog is over long in comparsion to the breed standard & I would be interested to see it move as it appears to be overangulated at the rear but still you seem to like it But it's from a kennel that prefers the level topline so where is this dogs level topline ?

I don't judge dogs from photographs so cannot comment on what these dogs are like in the flesh, but a dog I have met & gone over(not judging him as he is retired) is here

He has the correct chacteristics both mental & physical, has a head & expression I greatly covet & colour well the picture does not do him justice & on the move keeps his shape Oh that he was mine but his owner won't sell. Even offered him all my cavaliers :)(joking)in exchange.

I know you will all call him roached & incorrect etc etc etc thats your opinion & you are entitled to it but IMHO he is a lovely dog In natural stance he does not have a roach back nor is he roached in movement

I wish I could get the photographs I have of him unposed & on the move onto the internet, but alas no scanner & they are conventional photographs.

NO!!!! he isnt roached back------i think youve taken the "hump" over the wrong thing here-please look at the pics of the dogs ive named, and tell me how you see them

Its from a kennel that interprets the standard as it should be THE STANDARD SAYS I QUOTE ROACH BACKS SHOULD BE REJECTED

Janines Gsds

I am looking not at the link that you gave but at Lindellas dogs in this weeks our dogspaper

Hi Cavalierfan (and others),
There is a complete selection of toplines here - there must be something to suit every taste!

Which dog appeals the most? Personally, I like 'Pirol von Arminius' (page 1) but 'Rikkor von BadBoll' on page 3 is atrocious!
:)

Excellent taste Jeangenie!:). My favs are: Hussan vom Haus Schutting P.1, and Pirol vom Arminius. Quando von Arminius is a roach!!

Sarah.

give me your opinion then on these few please--page 2 va6 erasmus van noort---page 10 va9 kevin vommurrtal---va9 ,shalome von oasis-pge12---va11 quirin v hoochmoor -----va4 winbona vom amur----and !!!! pge 22 sg1 bierstader hof

I haven't seen the supplement, but I know what Dizzy means. I have seen very few photographs of GSDs with straight backs, as described in the standard. The majority appear in the photos to be thoroughly roached - if you held a ruler on the photo there would be a distinct upward curve between withers and croup.

Doesn't roach mean the topline rises from the withers like a bedlington in an arch can't see any that have bedlington type toplines

Also if the dog has a level topline in stance when the dog gaits it will drop on forehand unless trained to run with it's head held high which then restricts the forereach & makes the dog short step. If a dog drops on forehand it loses the level topline it has in stance

Ergo the advice from BS "if it moves right it is made right"

JMHO of course as I am not a "top"person in any breed

Have you held a ruler to the photos? If the backline deviates from the straightedge, the back isn't straight....
:)

Where do you class the back from the withers to to tail set? The back is from the withers to the start of the croup ie the end of the ribs the croup does not start from the tail set

Using a ruler on a dog's photograph is not the way to gauge it's construction, but you are still saying the dogs are roached

But then I am no expert & IMHO there are lots of top winning dog in my breedthat should have a level topline that are woefully lacking & they are the ones that are being used as the ideal to breed to because they are short ribbed & long coupled in stance they look ok, but when they move it is a whole different ball game

Like you, I define the 'back' as being from the withers to the croup, the croup being the area of the sacrum - basically from where you can feel the points of the pelvis, to the tailset. Most breeds will allow a very slight dip in the middle of the back where the thoracic spine joins the lumbar spine. Any rise, however, is a big no-no.
:)

Wouldn't like to see a GSD running out with it's head held up, yugh!! GSDs naturally run with their heads quite low! PS. my GSD has a level topline, and does not drop onto her forehand when moving! She moves wonderfully (with her head in normal position!!).

Hi Mali Fan, mine have as well and they reatin their topline in movement

Janines

If a dog has a level topline when stood & extends the forelegs when moving the distance between the ground & the shoulders will be less in movement than when stood making the dog fall on forehand & the dog will not have a pronounced wither as per the breed standard if it is the same height at the withers & start of the croup

What a load of rubbish!! So, are you telling me that all other breeds with level toplines are incorrect in their movement! I don't think so!!

I agree Mali Fan, my young bitch who HAS A GENTLY SLOPING TOPLINE but does have german lines in her breeding can move around a ring or indeed anywhere with the forward reach and hind thrust that a gsd is supposed to have many dogs today are either scrabling around a ring or lazily moving because they re too big and heavy to move properly

Janines

Perhaps if you do as Dizzy does, and took a bit of interest in breeds other than your own, you would find that what you have just said is nonsense! Plenty of standards require a level topline and the dogs are still required to move properly.

how do you do in your breed-just out of interest. --whats your affix, it would be interesting to see the breeds and type you own, is it just cavaliers ?????? have you sat any judging assesments etc, -just wondering ????? :D

I don't have a kennel name as yet as I haven't bred any puppies for a long time & my health doesn't really allow me too now

My GSD dogs breeding was Salzbergen, Lierburg, Weinerau, etc Sorry never owned a UK Affix either

I have both working & breed national judging qualifications here but I've never been to any UK assessments are they really making everyone pass exams in construction etc now Wow I am impressed Does this mean that everyone giving CCs & judging at Open shows will really have some idea of construction under the skin & be able to explain in detail why they have placed/graded the dogs I wouldn't mind taking UK examinations easier than doing it in a second langauge, the verbal was ok but i have problems with the correct grammar :)

I have only owned Cavaliers since my husbands passing & they come from Homeranne & Homerbrent bloodlines imported here They do Ok at the club shows under Breed specialists who have a long experience in the breed but for the more recent experts my dogs are too small all being between 12 & 18 lbs in weight I can't get to the Bigger all breed shows as I have problems travelling any distance & cannot afford the handlers to show the dogs plus they are my companions & I don't like them to be away from me.

Now I have answered your questions what breed do you have as you did not answer when I asked the question before

i own shar-pei, which have a topline all of there own [nearly] which asks for a dip and a rise, so many judges arent aware of this fact either, or that the coat shoulds be offstanding not flat, the eyes dark and sunken, plus a dark black/blue tongue/
it is equally upsetting to see someone judge the breed thats clueless, BUT! id not have a fit if someone commented on a breed failing they saw, as everyone has opinions,.

Hi there dizzy,
I havn't seen this supplement (presume it's Our Dogs). Are you sure it's not that they're in show stance? Take a look at the back legs. They tend to look totally different if they're standing square! (unlesss it's a roach, then they still look awful!).:)

Sarah.

mal, i agree with you-the forehand construction would mean the dog having its head help lower, as opposed to high, which would indicate a different shoulder coupling, -but as for am i confused with show stance---if a dog has a suspect topline-and is stretched well out behind [show pose] then on standing normally surely the topline will revert back to a hump--------im not saying all dogs in the supplement are wrong, or humped, but there are a fair few, i equally dont like the very long backed with short legged type, but a well balanced, not overdone sound looking one is a pleasure to see, --just out of curiosity, -why are the dogs stqacked this way, -i dont no of any other breed stood like this, why are they /??

That's what I meant dizzy. When a roach stands normally you can still see the roach back. But if you have a good GSD with a straight back, it will look straight however he stands! I know of no other breed that stands like this either, but I do know that my girl does this naturally (walks into this stance by herself). I also don't like how these dogs run out at the end of a lead, pulling like trains, what happened to heelwork!! I'll stick to the Opens, at least I'm not ruining all her obedience training!:).

Sarah.

Hi cavalierfan you just seem to sound like someone who was on here not so long ago about the so called ENGLISH types Please forgive me if I am wrong

Janines

Well in Europe the German German Shepherds are just that & then the "English"type are referred to as the"English"Sorry but that is how they are referred to

But most of the english crew and pardon me but we are english are going back to german lines so whats the problem with us and I can see where u are coming from with the old heavy english but not us who are trying

Janines

Well the dog that appealed to me was not in the supplement but elsewhere in the paper, on the front of the show supplement. It isn't long backed or shortlegged. It carries the Lindella's affix.

I met a veteran from that Kennel when he won the Veteran Stakes at Windsor 2002, and my bitch had won the Champion stakes. A very noble dog.

I was impressed at his balance and even tempered demeanor months later at the Pedigree stakes finals, a very inteligent biddable dog, with an obviously good level of obedience training.