I had to pass on the horrible experience we had last night.

We recently moved and were over an hours drive from our training class. So when the course ended I decided to try and find a new one in our area - our old one was 'click & treat' and I was keen to find the same although was not having much luck and resigned myself to trying something different.

Well last night we went along to observe a class. the woman sounded great on the phone. Said she didn't agree with treating as the dog needs to be able to do what you ask without a bribe. so thought we'd give it a go. Turned up and there were'nt many dogs there with it being half term - a doberman, white GSD and choc lab. I was quite suprised when we walked in at how quiet they all were but we sat in the corner and waited.

Well the class started and that's when I noticed they were all wearing choke chains. The owners had to stand in a line with the dogs sat squarely at their side. The tariner then started to preach on for about ten minutes. Every time one of the dogs (none of them moved an inch) turned their heads they got a viscious yank on the chain by their owner. The dobe kept whimpering and the owner kept smacking him across the face with the back of her hand. I was beginning to get a bit worried at this point.

They then did an excercise where they had to walk round the hall to heel, then two had to sit while the other lay down. The trainer said to the dobe owner - 'oh, yours is really good at this, but if you put him in a down would he saty there for an hour whilst you watch a programme' the owner said 'yes' but I wanted to shout WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT? the dobe did really well and got lots of praise but as the GSD's owner walked away the dog tried to move. The trainer told the owner to go and put the dog back where it was - which he did by just shoving it across the floor and then proceeded to thump it on it's side. the poor dog was frightened to death - all dogs had ears down, tail between legs and I witnessed the dobe, but esp. the GSD being hit on several occasions.

After 15 minutes I stood up to leave. I was shaking and felt like shouting at the owners for being so stupid as to let this happen to. She saw me going but didn't even make a move to come over and ask why. So I called to her and told her that when she had said on the phone about 'authority' I did not realise she meant that strict and that I did not approve of anybody beating their dog. She didn't even look suprised.

I can't believe how shocking and horrible it was. I'm still shaking now just thinking about it. Is there anything I can do?

God..it sounds horrible, maybe you could get someone of high authority to go and watch as a "new dog owner". It sounds like something you get in a film........ I would certainly not take my dog there!

I almost ran out - clutching Molly to my chest and then had to sit in the car for a good ten minutes as my legs were shaking so much I couldn't drive.

I went to another class later that evening (as the first ended so early!) and told the trainer there who has suggested that she go along with one of her dogs and see what this woman is like. I don't know if the first woman is a member of the APDT but I'd be interested if anyone knows how I can find out?

If you go on to the APDT site there is a list of ALL members by area there.

It sounds awful & well done for speaking your mind to the woman and for following it up! When I was a child, we had a GSD and my father took him to training classes. During the one and only class they attended, when off lead doing a recall, the our dog bolted for the door. The trainer got to him before my father and hit him with a chair! He advised my father to thump him in the shoulder when he was disobedient. Needless to say, my father left and never went back. This was in the 70's though.

if anyone thumped one of my dogs they would still be picking their teeth up of the floor!

When we got our pup as first timers we really wanted to take him to training school but had two really bad experiences in two seperate schools so gave up. Although we're happy with how we've progressed with his training I'm sure a good training class would have benefited us all if only for socialising with other dogs, but I'm afraid as the Tanni said someone would have lost their teeth if we'd stayed in either. Well done for saying how you felt its something we've always regretted we just walked out I'm afraid.

Cheers
Steve

Complain to the council as they are more than likely the people that have allowed this training class to take place. Or complain to the people that the hall belongs to. Always go and watch a dog training class without your dog and see what the trainers and owners are like with their dogs. Never part with any money and if you do take your dog don't part with it unless you are happy to let someone show you what to do. I run classes in West Sussex and always if possible get the owners to come and watch before a new course starts.

Your right jumbuck and I will speak to the council as it is a council building in both cases, the first time we took our pup to the class as it was actually a recomendation from a friend whose judgement we used to trust. In the second class the trainer advised us to come long on our own to check it out first and was horrible to the dogs screaming at the dogs while holding their ears poor little things were terrified so we left and havn't bothered since I'm afraid.

Cheers
Steve

Hi, I didn't part with any money as we were only observing. I thought classes like this were ended years ago!

Molly is not much bigger than a cat at the mo and I would never dream of putting a choke chain on her and certainly never thumping her or hitting her round the face. Crikey - she jumps in shock if I shout!

I was quite upset when the trainer saw Molly as she said 'ooh I've just had another Westie finish my class - he was eleven, from a rescue and had never been trained in his life'. Now I can understand that an eleven year old might be harder to train than a pup, but all I thought when I left was that poor dog has not only been in rescue but then he gets subjected to that!

I am looking into my options for reporting her at the mo.

I have used 'choke chains' before, safely and responsibly i.e.without hanging the dog.
The idea is for the noise of the chain rattling as the dog moves quickly to slightly scare the dog into slowing down. This results in the dog walking to heal, not wishing to 'make the thing shout at it' so to speak. Because a dog thinks differently to us it thinks that the chain is telling it off, not the person on the end of the lead.
To yank the chain and choke the dog is sheer irresponsibility and cruelty!
I'd have put the chain round their necks and see how they liked it. Then i'd have belted them.
Its discusting, we're supposed to be the most civilised animals on this miserable planet!!!!

Were the dogs puppies? I thought that you shouldn't use choke chains on any dogs until they were fully developed as it can seriously damage their necks? Obviously in the wrong hands they are lethal for any dog, but i fail to see why you should ever need to put a choke chain on a westie, they aren't that strong. I didn't realise that these sorts of classes still existed and that any owner would ever go to them. I must have been very lucky with my classes.

I suppose that some novice owners may not know that the methods are wrong, and do what they are told, even though they dont like it, thinking it may work.

The dogs all looked fully grown to me. The poor dobe was obv. distressed as he didn't stop whimpering the whole time I was there.

I was wondering, should I phone the vets where I got her name & number from and tell them about it? It's not my usual vets and I'm not sure if they would be interested?

I would phone the vets Claire - sounds horrific! :(

I would tell as many people as you can - hall owner, council, vets, etc. etc.

I know a lot of people take the mickey out of the APDT, but the reason they were formed in the first place was to provide a kind and safe environment for both owners and dogs. I doubt if this trainer is a member, but do check on their website, and if it turns out they are, you can get the incident referred to their complaints committee.

It scares the hell out of me that there are still some trainers who A) totally misunderstand the use of food rewards and B) are so damn cruel. The dogs must al have been scared stiff. I would have had a red mist in front of my eyes .....

Poor Dobie, poor lab and poor GSd :( Shepherds often can't cope well with Stays, they need to learn confidence and then they are away!!! :) Out of interest, whereabouts are you, Claire?

Hugs from

Lindsay

hI Lindsay

We're in Surrey - Guildford. I have checked and this woman is not a member of the APDT.

I am going to ring the vets in a minute, I also know a guy from work who drinks in a working mens club attached to the hall. He asked me yesterday how it went and told him everything, so hopefully he will also spread the word.

A friend who used to work with rescue Rotties seems to think that training like this could end up leading to a snappy dog rather than a well-behaved one as they may just think one day that enough is enough.

Doesn't sound at all good to me.
I go to a motivational training club which uses click and treat method.
I use my voice as the clicker ( cack-handed with all the treats and clicker and lead :D )
The club I go to doesn't like choke chains at all (I actually use choke-chain to show my dogs
on but they aren't 'choked' if you know what I mean)
I have half-check collars (leather for my youngest and webbing material for my older dog)
Which is acceptable, or leather/webbing flat collar.
My youngest Boxer does have a confidence crisis at the moment with down stays -
But jesus if that method was used on her she'd freak! I'm slowly working on building her
confidence and she's down-staying much better each session we do.
If they tried that with my other dog she'd probably bite the trainer :o

Poor dogs :(
At least word of mouth will probably 'finish' the class and training methods!