I live in thornton near the pet shop which is in layton blackpool.Ihave visited a few times and it brakes my heart. Most of the pups their will either be in rescue by the time 2 years old . They were selling some pups as GSD's last time i went and the only resemblance they had to a shepherd was the fact they were black and gold!
They advertise in the free paper every week boasting the best selection of livestock in the Northwest!30 breeds of pups ready to go!

They have been 'done' by the council before for not having water/food acess during the during the day(so the pups are not running through dirt infront of prospective buyers and so they dont have to spend time cleaning I expect!) they now have water dishes and dry food for the pups,not sure if it is the correct food.

My close friend brought a sammy from there which was 5 months old.The staff told her the pups are walked daily which was a lie because she was petrified of the outside world, had never seen grass before! and was petrified of loud noises and cars.

Hi, a friend of mine has acted as an "expert witness" in a couple of cases brought by the local authority against the Balckpool place. In both these instances it was a case of misdespcription of the dogs as pedigrees. They were undeniably cross-breeds. The palce was fined, and warned against future behaviour, that was it. In both cases the Authority brought evidence of unsatisfactory living conditions for the animals, warning were issued and the place was re-inspected, where the standards "were found to be imporved/satisfactory"! :( Poor, poor pups.
bye
Gwen

http://hope-uk.tripod.com/info.htm

Try this site also about the horrors of puppy farming.

Coleen

there have been a constant trickle of chocolate labs in our rescue this year all on the D L Registration and all bred in wales many the same stud dog/sire he on loads of the pedigrees in our files for the last couple of years,its so annoying that thses dogs are bred in awful places then shipped to the shops then sold to many people who shouldnt have them because they can pay on their credit card in the last month we have had 5 chocs from these sources handed in all cost £450,now you can buy a chocolate lab of a decent breeder for almost the same price .
The trouble is you get families saying oh lets go and buy a dog with no thought about it of they go for the instant dog no questions asked no idea about hereditary problems swipe their card and off home in the case of labs which grow at an alarming rate they quickly realise they have made a big mistake and ring around to get rid of the dog.
One woman rang me the other week and when I said we couldnt take the dog till the weekend as we were full said " I never realised it would be so hard to get rid of a dog ! " I thought to myself if it was as hard to get one maybe our problems would be solved :(

Hi Gwen, the local authority has certain powers in respect of Licensing a pet shop and ensuring that the pet shop licensing conditions are adhered to but they need to work together with the Trading Standards office. The reason why I say this is because Trading Standards have the power through the Court to effectively close down traders that are persistently offering for sale 'faulty goods'. The proceedure they have to follow is a little slow but it can be effective as the trader has to give an undertaking to the Court that they will not sell 'faulty goods'. If they do and that results in the consumer having to report the fault to the Trading Standards department, then the trader will have to return to Court, which can result in the trader having to close their business, a fine and imprisonment. One pet shop owner in my area is subject to this order.
Please, please advise everyone that you meet that has not purchased a puppy wisely and has suffered the consequencies such as a sick puppy, a puppy that has died or faulty paperwork to contact the local Council IN WRITING for the area that covers the seller of the puppy AND Trading Standards. They need the evidence you will not close any premises down unless you are persistent and above all the purchaser MUST submit the evidence.

Pettsville in Sutton sell pups from an unlicensed Welsh breeder. Copy of the pedigree relating to a pup bought was sent to me and the breeder is not on my licensed breeder's list. A campaign against this shop has been fought for ten years and demonstrations are held regularly . RSPCA have inspected and will not uphold any complaint made against the shop and the London Borough continue to issue Mr. Boys license . The reports on Pettsville are damning.

Just to point out that a caring good breeder does not have to be registered, in fact I would go so far as to say most good breeders are not. Only breeders who breed more than 4 or 5 litters a year are registered with the local athority, so I think you will see that some of the registered breeders are puppy farmers If your pup came from an unregistered breeder then it could be that they have not registered or that it was a one off litter and because they did not know what they were doing they sold the whole letter to a puppy store. In a way you may be lucky and your pup may well have been home breed.

Just to make a few points clear.
A pet shop can purchase puppies from ANY source they do NOT have to purchase and sell puppies from a LICENSED breeder.
The legislation applies to the breeder of a Licensed breeding establishment. Details from The Breeding and Sale of Dogs (welfare) Act 1999.
Sale of Dogs -:
1.However a keeper of a LICENSED breeding establishment is guilty of an offence if :-
(a) He sells a dog otherwise than at a licensed breeding establishment, a licensed pet shop or a licensed Scottish rearing establishment.
(b)He sells a dog otherwise than to a keeper of a licensed pet shop or a Scottish rearing establishment knowing or believing that the person who buys it intends that it should be sold ( by him or any other person)
(c)He sells a dog which is less that 8 weeks old otherwise than to a keeper of a licensed pet shop or a licensed Scottish rearing establishment.
(d)He sells to the keeper of a licensed pet shop or a Licensed Scottish rrearing establishment a dog which was not born at a licensed breeding establishment or he sells to the keeper of a licensed pet shop or a licensed Scottish rearing establishment a dog which, when delivered is not wearing a collar with an identifying tag or badge.
I am not trying to be clever but this always causes so much confusion. Because pet shops can purchase puppies from any source is why unlicensed as well as Licensed breeders seek the pet shops out to sell their puppies to. Particulary the puppy farmers in S Ireland (Licensing is not required). Puppy farmers in Wales both licensed and unlicensed supply the pet shops too. Some breeders regulary supply the pet shop trade and register the puppies with the Kennel Club even though it is against the KC code of ethics, but the KC does nothing about it even though they are aware. Most these days favour the DLUK though - it keeps their secrets!!!

If the Council and Trading Standards department in Sutton are collating cases of sick puppies and bad trading practises from puppy purchasers and as you say this has been going on for 10 years. Then perhaps they need a big shove to act. If the number of complaints is unacceptable then why not ask TS why they are not acting and using the powers they have been given by the Stop Now Order Regulations? (these regualtions have now become incorporated into the Enterprise Act and are now called an Enforcement Order instead of a Stop Now Order)
They have the power to act insist that they use the powers they have been given against rogue traders. It is possibly the only way that effective action can be taken. If the trader is abiding by the pet shop licence conditions which means the Council cannot take action and the RSPCA are a waste of space in this situation, then the best course is Trading Standards.

Pat I have been reading this board and your replies for ages. I feel I have to stop lurking and reply. Your postings seem to have us believe that you have vast knowledge on this subject. You are always quick to condemn others when they point out the failings of local councils etc. I wonder if you perhaps live in the real World, and know just how many other problems Councils have to deal with on a day to day basis.
You told one poster to give their council a 'shove' does that mean that your local Council acts at the drop of a hat when you contact them. what are you doing about puppy farming? I have been to your web site as I have the other puppy farming web sites, Puppy Watch, WAG, Hope UK and you seem to say nothing more then these people all do, so where does your superior knowledge come from? It seems a shame if you have so much experiecne and knowledge that you are only using it to 'slap' people down on newsgroups.

The truth is Pat that although you see trading standards as the saviour and the way to put a stop to puppy farmers, they simply do not have the time or the funds to do as you keep telling people. Writing that it is now, called an Enforcement Order is not going to alter anything. What are you trying to say that if everyone contacted their TS then puppy farming would cease to be. Much as if we said, if everyone who had purchased faulty goods did the same then ALL market traders would close down. I think you need to get out into the real World Pat, and see the amount of complaints TS has to deal with they are as underfunded as everyone else. It is the public that keeps puppy farming going, like someone else wrote. If they stopped buying then there would not be a trade. Why do you not advocate that, and do as someone else wrote on this thread and join together to get puppy farming banned. I think that makes an altogether better sound approach then telling indivuduals to write and complain to TD's of which most of the complaints will fall on stony ground. We never read of all of these shops going out of business do we.

My local rescue has been taking in the sad cases from both the pet shops and the farms for years, they have hands on knowledge not just writing about it. They have stopped trying to get their local council to do something they need all their time to raise the money needed to help the dogs they take in. Perhaps you should get involved in rescue Pat, and see the problems in the real light of the day. If you are involved already then I apologise. There are many more ways of having experience of this problem then sitting and writing what the law says. We all know that the law in many cases seldom works.

DOGS

Hi, I do live in the real world and am aware that animal welfare issues are given the lowest of priority with most Councils Environmental Health departments but that does not mean they can ignore issues indefinately. The same applies for Trading Standards. However, that does not mean that pressure should not be placed upon both to take action when the evidence is available. Neither department can act without the evidence to stand up in Court for a conviction, this is the only way of ensuring that at least temporary that a premises is closed. The reason why I keep on about puppy purchasers to contact both their local Council Enviroinmental Health department and Trading Standards if they have purchased a puppy that is sick/died or the paperwork is incorrect, is because they can take action. Why? because they have the powers to do so. They will not act and cannot act without the evidence, the puppy purchaser has the evidence. Anyone that campaigns against puppies sold from pet shops and puppy farming rely upon the support of the puppy purchasers.
You say I slap people down on news groups, I am sorry if that is the impression you have of me or one that I have given, it is not intentional. It maybe after years of awareness of this trade and little action by those that can do something makes me over keen to encourage people to contact the authorities because the more pressure and evidence they are given I know eventually it does makes them act. They cannot ignore a vast amount of collated factual evidence, it has to be dealt with eventually.
I do not see Trading Standards to be the saviour to stop puppy farmers but I know that the Trading Standards department have the powers to act against traders such as Licensed pet shops (see a previous message) to bring them to Court and ultimately close them down. The have both the legislation and the finance to do so. If this legislation was used throughout the country by Trading Standards departments where there are pet shops selling puppies that are sick or have died in their area, again providing that the puppy purchaser contacts them. This would create a domino effect as each pet shop licence holders business folds then the puppy farmers would lose one of their main source of outlets for their puppies.
Yes, you are right on one point if people contacted Trading Standards with faulty goods then traders would close down that the very point of the Enforcement Order it is there to protect the consumer and to squeeze out traders that repeatedly sell faulty goods and are breach of section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act, whether its a car dealer repeatedly selling faulty cars or a pet shop licence holder selling faulty puppies. For goodness sake do not knock it I am only too pleased that Trading Standards departments can use this legislation, which is new and this is the reason why prior to this pet shop liocence traders premises have not been closed because it was the Environmental Health department that had the power to act but that was only related to the Licence conditions. Now that Trading Standards can use this legislation which is escalating action on rogue traders, who have to give an undertaking to a Court to not sell faulty goods. If they do they are recalled back to Court which will result to a fine/imprisonment and the closure of the business. Why knock it? What else do we have?
Yes, you can protest, I have been on many protests, you can get media attention for a short span either on TV, radio, local papers you can try to encourage the public to not buy from pet shops, print leaflets, write to MPs, I agree it all helps but at the end of the day it comes down to legislation the need to bann puppies sold from anywhere other than the breeder and all puppies to be identified by the breeder before sale. No puppy should be sold from anywhere other than from its breeding site, the sale of puppies from pet shops should be banned. You may not agree with me and feel that I am wasting my time with my suggestions but at least I can look back over the years and know that I have made a little difference. If everyone did a little to highlight this trade or to actively put pressure on Councils Trading Standards and encourage people not to buy from these places then perhaps the puppy farmers would not have the outlets in the Uk to sell their puppies to.
I can understand why you feel only apathy over this but to walk away is not the answer. You say that your local rescue has given up trying to get the local Council to do something, that is letting the Council get away with doing nothing and accepting the excuses that they give you as to why they cannot do something. I know I have listened to Councils excuses, they can act if they are given the written evidence. The trouble is people invariably make telephone calls or send emails to make complaints they are put in the bin or ignored that is why, as old fashioned as it seems letters are always better they have to be dealt with and replied to - in time.

Who on earth said I walk away, there you go again thinking only you are doing something.

12 years ago I moved to this area from the W Midlands. I once saw a breeding bitch left for dead in a ditch. To keep the story short I have since along with others taken in many many ex breeding bitches and working with some breed rescues have made them fit to be rehomed. I do not walk away as you say, but give a lot of my time and money to trying to give some dogs a good few years of what life they have left. Have you ever worked with an ex breeding bitch. Sometimes (in most cases) it takes weeks for them to even come near you. They will not eat you have to leave the food and walk away, any noise they bolt and hide. Some breeds are better then others, some are nervous wrecks, and need really special homes. You will weep more tears then you ever knew you had, then you get hard and wonder why people are still allowed to do this to animals.

We never ask where the bitches come from, because if any of us ever let it slip we now that NO more bitches from that kennel would ever see the light of day. So I do not take kindly to your preaching at me. There are many good people in this neck of the woods that I live in - sadly there are many who only see dogs as a way to make money.

I too can look back over the years and know I have made a difference, I though do not see it as anything to brag about. I wish I had more time, more money and more energy to help more of these poor dogs. So please Pat, do not write telling me about pathetic enforcement notices etc. In the time in takes councils and TS to act, thousands of dogs have been born and heavens only knows how many have died. If you are pleased with this legislation - then heaven help the puppies and dogs. it does not say much for someone who advocates her loathing for this trade

They do not close places down Pat, not until years down the line. Is that your only way of advocating people apply pressure.

Dogs

Hi, I am sorry that you have taken personally what I said about 'walking away' I was not refering to you personally, I was writing in general terms. As far as I know I do not know you anymore than you know me, therefore neither of us are in a position to make judgements about each other. I hope I did not suggest that I was the only person doing something because I know I am not. Why did you think I was bragging anymore than I should think you are bragging about your involvement in rescue I do not know. I have nothing to bragg about, I like you only do my bit to the best of my ability if I see results that to me is a bonus. Likewise if a very nervous dog rescued from a puppy farm gradually becomes more confident in your care surely must make you feel the same?
I cannot understand why you are so critical and belittle what I try to do and write about yet are unable to offer a better alternative .
Is to 'shut up and keep quite' a better option then? Is this not condoning the activities of the puppy farmer?
Because of the location of where you live you are aware of the activities of the puppy farmers. You are involved with rescue and as you say have to keep quite otherwise you will not be able to save anymore, I can understand the predicament that you and other place yourselves in to save the dogs. It is good that you do this but while you are doing this can you not see that others who do not live in the same area as yourself can equally work hard in other ways? It maynot be your way as your work is hands on and in direct contact with the dogs where mine is more general. We are both trying to do something which is better than all those that do nothing, surely? You can honestly go on rescuing dogs from puppy farms until the end of time but this will not close one puppy farm or one pet shop down, you know that and I do too. It is by people keeping quite that this trade is able spiral out of control, if more people opened up to what they knew and let organisations that are fighting hard against puppy farming and pet shops into their 'little secrets' then more could be achieved. Yes, you are helping the dogs to have a better life, to come out of a hell hole, of course you are. However, I am not certain that you should keep quite for fear of not being able to have more, is this not in a way condoning the activities of the puppy farmer? If you know what they doing and if they are acting illegally or cruelly why are you keeping quite, is this not perpetuating their money making business? You do not have to act yourself there are enough organisations that would make enquiries on your behalf and in confidence.

Interesting that you view the people who help these poor dogs as 'condoning this trade'. Who would you suggest that we tell about this trade, that does not already know what is happening Pat. Do you think that the rescuing of ex breeding bitches is a secret. I take it you live in an area where there are very few strays, and certainly NO puppy farms. I am not sure how you can write about puppy farming and how to end it, when you have no real idea of how the trade works. Of course, you might be able to prove me wrong and have contacts in welfare organisation who might be able to stop this trade. If so you have my email please pass them on to me. I think you should come and spend some time in S Wales, come and visit the markets, car boot sales, etc etc. Walk the streets, come and see how puppies and older dogs get traded - and then write and tell me that there are organisations working to put an end to all of this cruelty, in confidence or otherwise.

There are 'no little secrets' as you write. In fact the breed rescues who help, would be upset and angry to hear you call all of their hard work 'secrets'. This is a very strange choice of words for someone who fights against puppy farming. Just what is it, about the rescuing of these poor dogs you are SO against Pat? We are not afraid for ourselves, and the only reason we keep what we do to ourselves is for the continuation of helping even more dogs. It is not because people like 'us' keep quite that this trade spiralls out of control. It is because people in power allow it it flourish.

Would you have me to tell these people that they are NOT to save anymore dogs, and that we are all to sit down and write lots of letters to our Councils. We do campaign, as well as help what dogs we can. We try to do as WAG suggests, and Puppy Watch did once, via education. The trouble is this is a money making industry and people are not prepared to see that taken away from them.

You sit in your nice ivory tower writing your letters, better that then nothing. But do not look down on the people who try to help what poor dogs they can.

Answer me this Pat, if you were asked to help with several ex breeding bitches, but you had to take the bitches and ask NO questions. What would you do. Would you turn your back on those dogs for the sake of 'doing it your way' and contacting the 'right' people as you call them. Knowing full well that the 'right' people would do nothing, only stop any chance of those dogs and any future dogs being helped. Easy perhaps to answer when you are NOT faced with those choices.

Is there anyone else on this group from S Wales or anywhere else that puppy farming is rife. I would really like to communicate with people who are aware of the real situation.

Are there any people who help with ex breeding bitches or know of people who do. It is always nice to speak to people who understand what the problems faced are. Email me off the board if you wish.

many thanks
DOGS

Why does what I write or try to say get so misunderstood, misinterpreted when all I am trying to do is to explain from a different viewpoint and perspective?
The reason why I said condoning this trade is not because you or anyone else rescues the breeding bitches/dogs from puppy farms but because most people involved with rescue of the breeding bitches/dogs will not even speak out in confidence to those involved in campaigning against puppy farming by telling them who is involved in puppy farming. That is the reason why I said 'little secrets'. You said in a previous message that it is for fear of not being able to rescue and save more dogs but that situation can go on forever with the puppy farmer breeding and off loading the surplus dogs knowing damned well that those individuals that take the dogs will keep their mouths shut for the sake of the dogs. I know that and you admit to it. I can understand why you and many others do this but in the longer term it does not help the dogs. For goodness sake if you or anyone else feels you cannot take on the Councils themselves then you know who can and will please pass the information on in confidence, please for the sake of the dogs?
I do not live in an area where puppy farming is prolific but I certainly live in an area where breeders are prosecuted for unlicensed breeding and where Councils and Trading Standards departments take complaints seriously and act. I may not see
puppy farming around me but I am certainly aware of the heartache caused by indescriminate breeding by puppy farmers/licensed breeders who supply the pet shop trade. The puppies that are sick and the puppies that die, the young dogs that become aggressive, hereditary diseases. The sadness of owners that have purchased unwisely ( often not realising that the nice boarding kennels have also a pet shop licence that allows them to 'buy in' puppies) and are left with massive vets bills and often no puppy because it has been put to sleep to save suffering at 8 weeks 10 weeks old a few months a tiny baby. A puppy that has been taken from its mother and transported from wales or Ireland across on a ferry then to be carted in a vehicle to be sold in a pet shop in London or Manchester only to die. Please do not think I do not know I know all right I know too much that is what makes me so cross. Cross because I write on a message board to people that say they love dogs but where are they why do they not put some input into this and have something to say.
Yes I may to you sound silly and you mock me when I say write letters but if more people gave the evidence to the Councils then they would have no excuse but to act that if the pressure is kept up and do not walk away. i know it does work.
I will email you off the board, I think you underestimate me and my concern.

Dear Pat and Dogs

I have read all of what you have both written. I think you are both aiming for the same results but approaching it from different angles.

As you will both have seen there is very little actual input to this thread, so it seems silly to me that you are pulling away from each other, rather then working together. Puppy farming needs all of the help and support from like minded people it can get. That you both use different ways to try and help the suffering of the dogs caught up in this evil trade is not to be spurned. To each his own, so long as the rewards benefit the animals - then what does it matter how it is achieved.

I think there are very few people who actually know the truth about puppy farming and are capable of writing about it, or offering help to the dogs caught up in it. Both take committment and both are not designed to work miracles overnight. The fact that this thread is only being driven on by yourselves speaks volumes...

I liked the suggestion about all of the people with web sites displaying a banner decrying this trade. It would seem I am alone, as no one else has come forwarded to take up this suggestion. Well I will design a banner myself and for those of you who feel strongly enough you will be welcome to add it to your own web site.

I have been around since Puppy Watch, and am very well aware of what this trade is all about. I was sickened by the 1999 Breeding and Sale of dogs welfare act. The so called licensing of all breeding establishments and the pathetic attempt at making a better life for breeding bitches and the puppies they produce. What has that Bill achieved? Nothing.

For everyone who continually posts on here and writes "I thought that the selling of puppies from pet shops was illegal". No it is not. For all of you who write and ask "the breeder will not let me have my puppy until it is 7,8, whatever weeks old". Puppy farmed puppies are in the shops at 5 weeks old. They have already travelled hundreds and hundreds of miles in any old transport available. Many die before they reach 8 weeks old. Does this not really really sicken you?. Enough to want to stop this trade?

In a few weeks time the pet shops and other retail outlets will be full of these poor little mites all being sold for the Christmas rush. How much longer is this going to be allowed to happen? To that I have no answer. I do know that unless more people come together to stop this trade then it will continue and flourish for ever more. Is that what we as animal lovers want?

Coleen

I'd love a banner please!!!

Providing my committee agree I will use it on my clubs site. I will anyway put in any links that I am given that will help to publicise anyone fighting against this sort of trade or trading.

Many thanks. I will sit down and design a simple but effective banner over the weekend. Can we add files on this board, or would it better to email it to everyone who would like to display it. Which ever way is no problem to me.

Thanks Coleen

I think it says it all when there is a quote from a letter on the Bassett Hound page saying that the couple were delighted with the Bassett Hound they bought whilst on holiday! Another souvenir to pack into the case along with a stick of Blackpool rock I guess. Those poor little puppies :-(

I received this email from WAG (who campaign against puppy farming)

"Hi Nikki
there are several pieces of advice but the foremost is education make the
public aware of the best source of puppies for them to buy. These are the
well bred and looked after where at least one of the parents can be seen.
If the premises selling the puppies have no licences as prescribed under the
Pet Animals Act 1951 or under terms of the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act
1973 as amended then they would be subject to prosecution. Also Councils who
issue licences also have to take reports on the suitability of the applicant
and the premises before issuing or renewing a licence.
The difficulty is proving any of the foregoing along with animal cruelty
issues. At present attempts are under way to amend and produce legislation
to control the trade and end suffering.
I can only generalise as I cannot give specific advice about premises that I
have no knowledge of and also for the laws of defamation. The main target
should be the licensing office and trading standrads who have the role of
implementing the law and investigating it. Some Councils are excellent and
others do not always reach this standard. Again I cannot comment on any
specific situation for the same laws of defamation.
I hope some of this helps but the only main area that is easy to target is
education make the public aware of the best practice when buying a puppy
regards
Ken McKie"

Although this is a emotive subject and one I feel very strong against it is very very difficult to 'educate' the public. After all, all of the campaigns tell people that 'smoking' is bad for them - but thousands still do it - even thought they are well aware of the possible outcome. So trying to educate the public to not by from 'pet shops etc' is never going to win the day.

The Councils are never going to invest large amounts of time or money either into tackling this problem, they just do not have the resources. The only way to STOP this is to make the breeding and selling of puppies from puppy farms illegal. Can anyone ever see that happening. Too much money involved - and that's what it all comes down to - money!

What legislation is this that 'wag' are talking about? Is this legislation in Scotland? Because I am not aware of anything happening across the Border. In fact Wales are going the other way (as we are all well aware).

There are puppy farmers throughout the Country, many are well known to the relevant local Council - but they refuse to do anything about them. There are thousands of puppy farms (some not even licensed).

The large welfare organisation NCDL, RSPCA will not take on the issue because of the cost implications and the time involved to really get to the grass roots of the problem. The RSPCA do not see it as a real issue.

The puppies that are on sale here in the UK are only probably the tip of the iceberg, many are bred solely for overseas. How many of those survive. How many of you have had the emails from Korea this week looking to buy puppies of all breeds. Money again, someone will supply them puppies for that market (and they will not all be puppy farmers either)

Yes Pat is right in that going to your local trading standards is better then nothing - but it is a slow and time consumming process. After all just how many outlets etc have been closed down over the years. Not many! And for everyone that does close another dozen+ spring up.

The action should be taken to make this 'trade' illegal but it would take a massive effort from everyone connected to the dog World. Owners, Vets, Rescue Socities etc etc. Can anyone realistically ever see that happening.
Even then I fear the trade would go underground!

The drip drip effect in the media makes people sit up and take notice, but it is all soon forgotten.

There will be people still buying from these places for Christmas - this year - and probably in 50+ time.

Coleen

:( :( :(

OK I'M GUILTY!!!!

I've sat here and puffed and blown about the state of the dog world today. I'm a paid up member of the Dogs Trust and a local rescue centre. I love and care for my own dog to the best of my abilities. I've even taken in and rehomed a few strays in my time. :)

BUT...

When it comes to the crunch I've left it to others to deal with. I've never stood out in the rain handing out leaflets. I've never written to my local council. I've never really done anything that I don't enjoy doing. :(

SO...

What can be done by ordinary folk like myself who have a busy life and limited funds? This is a serious question not a p*ss take.

I think that WAG have the right idea, educate the public. Writing to Councils is OK, but your letter only gets to sit on one persons desk. The message has to come from those of us who know that puppy farming is wrong, waiting for the people who have bought puppies to contact trading standards is slow, and the wrong way to tackle this problem. They will not close the trade down with this drip drip approach.

Some of us are clubbing together a few pounds each a month to take a add out in out local paper just advising people to stay away from commercially bred puppies (sadly you have to be careful what you say, as people are looking for ways to sue you). Make sure a list of reputable breeders for as many breeds as possible are available in GOOD pet shop windows and any other place you think might be good.

For all of you that have a web site, run something about the NO NO's of puppy farming - if we all did that, then that would be hundreds of sites ALL saying the same. People who are then researching breeds would pick this message up.

Nothing has to cost the earth just the more people doing it the better.

Dogs

Dogs,
I have e-mailed you and given out my phone number but you did not reply, I too am in S. Wales so why do'nt you get in touch? I cannot find a rescue called Dogs in Need, are you a registered charity? You may be hands on rescue but like Pat I am involved with the dreary and soul-destroying paperwork of gathering evidence in trying to close puppy farms, dealing with local authorities in Wales who collect strays , then deny any knowledge of them when the owners have mislaid their pets, even when microchipped we have difficulty in tracing them.I have posted this before but will repat it now. The main area that needs to be addressed is the pet adverts in trade journals. We held a demo outside the Cardiff Adtrader but when I asked for help in organising a nationwide demo of all Loot and Adtrader Offices not one person stepped forward to support me.

You do not need to demo these offices MO, and in truth demos these days seldom work. People just see it as in invastion of their privacy and a right to go about their business. You would never get enough people, and a few people would do more harm then good, making the protest look ill supported. Strangely enough I rang one of the Ad trader papers some weeks ago. It would seem that someone had beaten me to it. That person had also (so I was told) been very rude to the Editor. Shouting and ranting that they wanted them to stop printing all ads selling puppies etc etc. Although I spoke to the Editor and apologised, I was lost before I had even begun. So whoever it was (I thank you)... Because, he told me he had been prepared to listen and make suggestions, he was not unsympathetic but not when fanatics come on yelling down the phone at him. Well would any of us take that kindly.
You need to look at how Exchange and Mart has altered the way it advertises puppies MO. True, it still does - but it is far far better then it ever was. You are not going to stop these papers from carrying ads. I know that E+M reviewed it procedure because of Pat's long term intervention. There are NO short cuts MO.

Perhaps the person from dogsinneed has not contacted you yet, as they are busy. Do not take them to task, how do you know what they are doing? Do you reply to everyone straight away. I know I do not. Maybe they do not want to contact you for reasons known only to themselves.

There are many issues concerning puppy farming that need to be addressed, the main one is to make this trade illegal, or at worst lighten up the existing legislation (and STOP councils granting breeding licenses left right and centre) Should anyone have a right to earn a living from the breeding and suffering of so many dogs? In truth MO, the ads in the papers are small compared to what is on the Internet.

I think that both Pat and DOGS deserve support. Surely MO, there are no sides to be taken in this.

Coleen

You do not need to demo these offices MO, and in truth demos these days seldom work. People just see it as in invastion of their privacy and a right to go about their business. You would never get enough people, and a few people would do more harm then good, making the protest look ill supported. Strangely enough I rang one of the Ad trader papers some weeks ago. It would seem that someone had beaten me to it. That person had also (so I was told) been very rude to the Editor. Shouting and ranting that they wanted them to stop printing all ads selling puppies etc etc. Although I spoke to the Editor and apologised, I was lost before I had even begun. So whoever it was (I thank you)... Because, he told me he had been prepared to listen and make suggestions, he was not unsympathetic but not when fanatics come on yelling down the phone at him. Well would any of us take that kindly.
You need to look at how Exchange and Mart has altered the way it advertises puppies MO. True, it still does - but it is far far better then it ever was. You are not going to stop these papers from carrying ads. I know that E+M reviewed it procedure because of Pat's long term intervention. There are NO short cuts MO.

Perhaps the person from dogsinneed has not contacted you yet, as they are busy. Do not take them to task, how do you know what they are doing? Do you reply to everyone straight away. I know I do not. Maybe they do not want to contact you for reasons known only to themselves.

There are many issues concerning puppy farming that need to be addressed, the main one is to make this trade illegal, or at worst lighten up the existing legislation (and STOP councils granting breeding licenses left right and centre) Should anyone have a right to earn a living from the breeding and suffering of so many dogs? In truth MO, the ads in the papers are small compared to what is on the Internet.

I think that both Pat and DOGS deserve support. Surely MO, there are no sides to be taken in this.

Coleen

Oops!! That should read TIGHTEN up existing legislation...

Coleen, I can assure it was not us who ranted and raved, in fact we were invited in for a discussion when we ran our demo. The girls stayed outside and I met the staff, our discussion lasted for an hour. Having run a database for over three years we know that of the 21 "dogs wanted" advertised in the pets column, only 2 each week are genuine. The local papers in Cardiff and the Valleys area, plus a newspaper group in London no longer carry a "wanted" column and copy of license is requested from customers advertising puppies. If the insertion (P) follows the advert and we find that we have records of more than four litters being sold by that person, or several breeds of dogs being sold by dealers, the paper will suspend the advert.

Then this is all good news MO. But have you looked on message boards and seen the amount of ads on there for dogs wanted. They make the ads in the papers seem small fry. Some of them cannot even be bothered to spell the name of the breed correctly. The one thing that should be stopped is the use of mobile numbers, in some cases they even give a number that is protected and allocated by the paper/message board, all of this makes the purchaser 100% anonymous and free to keep running the ads time and time again. If they are looking for dogs, then they will find ways around acquiring them though. Breed rescues are even being contacted as are general rescues. Anyone who places a 'free' to good home, is running the risk of their dog ending up in one of these places. I know of breeders who have thought they have sold puppies to good homes only to find this person was a dealer and the puppy has been sold on. No one can be certain and safeguard their puppy/dog fully. The only solution is to make trading and dealing illegal. Agents were meant to be a thing of the past as outlined by the 1999 act, but they still exist and they still ply their trade.

Coleen

I stepped out of this discussion after seeing that it was turning into a scrap between people with the same aim but different methods :(

I wonder how many others have ignored the thread or failed to reply because they didn't want to be drawn in?

Could anyone (better organised than myself) set up an email group or seperate message board (msn groups???) to co-ordinate our efforts/campaigns for general dog welfare? I'm not talking about rivaling the RSPCA (although give me their money and you'd soon see a difference ) but raising public awareness etc.

If anyone is interested maybe we could actually make a difference :D

I stay out of these discussions, because I know how tempers can get heated, and we all finish up scrapping amongst ourselves.

My (only) contribution towards stopping this trade is to advise the many people who contact me, looking for puppies (I am listed in CD breed list as having 2 breeds, although in recent years we have only had 1 litter of 1 breed) to be aware that puppies advertised in the "freebies" will, in most instances, come either from puppy farms, or from home breeders, many of whom will not have done the correct homework on the breeding/had the appropriate testing. I then suggest that people visit dog shows & talk to exhibitor/breeders who can help.

It's a very very small ripple in a pond - but if all breeders take this attitude we can educate some people (hopefully).

Margot

Quite true, Wishfairy.
I personally 'switched off' reading the very long rants, until the shorter posts (with paragraphs! ;) ) re-appeared!

I couldn't be bothered wading through screeds of name-calling. Sorry.

A lively discussion with different view points does no one any harm. In fact the more contributiion the better because points can be raised and discussed, it does not have to become a battlefield. I would like to think that that the people that use this message board have for one reason or another an interest in dogs, we all have our special interests, concerns and knowledge in various areas. Most I guess have their interest in showing or maybe have pet dogs for companions but I am sure all of us must have concerns for the less fortunate puppies and dogs whether it is the excesses of over breeding, puppy farming, pet shops or rescue. If we all and I do mean all, did just that little bit extra it could make a difference. Coleens suggestion, a banner on web site is an excellent idea and one that many of us can use. There must be many other ideas that you have that can help in one way or another to highlight the plight of the less fortunate dogs.
I would personally love to have coloured leaflets designed and printed to hand out that are informative and to the point. If anyone knows anyone that can help with this in any way I would love to hear from them.
I would like people to contact me with details of individuals that are supplying the pet shops. We all meet people with dogs in one way or another ask them, most are willing to talk particulary if they have had problems with the puppy.
Mo is concentrating on the ads, that is always an area of grave concern, particulary when mobile and the hidden numbers are used. I agree with Coleen Exchange and Mart have improved over latter years but still some slip through the net.
Come on please join in with some ideas.

The anonymous phone line has been queried with Adtrader. When the internet adverts are placed a "yak" no is put against the ad. to collate their own records. It is then e-mailed to the relevant Adtrader with the Yak no. The only way to access the landline no. was to double click on each e-mail which is too time consuming for office staff. The reason I wish to contact Dogs is because it is in S. Wales. Eureka!!! I had found someone in my own area. nearly all our other contacts are in England. I'm glad to see so many of you are willing to spend time and effort on this cause, perhaps if we are a large enough group we will be listened to. You have no idea of the constant battle I have with local authorities in Wales. not only with puppy farms but dogs that go missing in the system of dog pounds.

I hope dogs replies to you MO. I would have thought there would be a few people in South Wales looking to help you.

Can anyone tell me if there is a data base or a way of finding out how many licensed kennels there are in different areas, also is this information public knowledge or can anyone ask for a copy. It would be good to know how many licensed kennels there are up and down the Country.

Coleen

Try Coleen, you may have better luck in England than I am having in Wales. 15 Councils were contacted on 8th August, to date only four have complied as the Freedom for Information Act does not come into operation until December 2004, regardless of the fact that the EU states that 80% of local authorities are abiding by the Openness in Government Policy. I have researched the Citizen's Charter, local authority policies, Data Protection Act to name but a few. I have asked for help from AMs and MPs but still hitting a stonewall. Do you wonder that I lose my cool when dealing with such unnecessary obduracy.

Pat, whilst we are on the subject of ~Trading Standards, Environmental Health and Licensing. Tell me how to deal with my own council for allowing the contracted dog pound to sell sick puppies and then covering their own tracks. Even with written statements from the owners who bought the pups, spread of disease and another bitch dying of similar symtoms whilst in the pound. The rest of the dogs were transported after the seven day impoundment and the local authority refused to listen or act. The local newspapers would not print the report as they were not willing to target the local authority. I had names, telephone nos. dates and written statements as back up evidence.

My immediate thoughts were to highlight the problem with the support of the local newspaper they are usually only to keen to highlight a problem particualry if it is local interest. Even more so if there are people, as in this instant, that have sick puppies purchased from kennels, I presume working under tender from the Council. Yet you say they are not interested? Do you have any freeby papers in your area they pick up on local interest stories usually?

It looks like there might be enough interest in a wide enough spread (geographically) to form some kind of co-ordinated action group.

Can I make a suggestion (without stepping on toes I hope)? Could we get a list of people who are willing to act as 'team leaders' and maybe nominate one who is the 'hub'? That way all emails etc could be sent like a chain letter and if we knew of a particular problem in a specific area we had a point of contact nearby.

We could also see what peoples particular areas of interest/knowledge were and take advise etc from them when appropriate? I'm sure everyone has some talent or knowledge that can be used. If we all gave just one hour a week to help then we could make a real and measurable difference.

I counted over 100 staffi puppies for sale in adsforfree the other week - all at far less than the going rate. Backyard breeders or puppy farmers they are damaging the breed and soon a pedigree will mean nothing! Maybe you can give me some advise on how to approach the paper about this advertising?

Hi Wishfairy, I think what you have suggested is a very good idea and one that if there are any volunteers could be a very positive move in collating and acting on information.
However as there does not appear to be any concern amongst the people that subscribe to this board, in what happens to the less fortunate puppies and dogs other than what happens within the confines of their own dogs and interests, it looks as though your suggestion will go on deaf ears. This is a pity but it does not surprise me, there has always been much apathy in the dog world particulary from those that say they care about dogs. Invariably when it comes down to it in animal welfare, it is left to the commited few. They are even mocked for their commitment and told 'to get a life' by those that cannot be bothered to do anything other than snigger at their efforts, yet at the same time are not prepared to do anything themselves. It is sad pathetic world one in which causes animals to suffer unnecessary because some individuals are not prepared to do a little extra.

That's very harsh, Pat. :(

After the rowing and name-calling that blew up earlier on this thread, is it any wonder that people have steered clear of it?

I cannot understand why you describe what I have written as harsh, truth would be more accurate.
Argueing and name-calling? Where did you get that from? I do not recall calling anyone names or argueing, a disscussion over an issue maybe but nothing more than that. I think it was just lazyness on some peoples part that they could not be bothered to read the threads as they were long and they became disinterested because of it. If a few lines of twaddle are written then that is as much as some people want to read, to write anything lengthy that take time to read and understand, it is for some just too much. Maybe that is why people have steered clear, it has nothing to do with a disagreement or name calling which I do not recall.

Certainly not lazy Pat. Just busy people who couldn't be bothered keeping up with a "discussion" which was going nowhere.

oh my god! i have created a monster?