Some of you may remember my previous posts regarding my pup that had bitten my daughter just before Christmas. After treatment for his ear absess we began intensive training with our behaviourist to help him unlearn the bad behaviour that he had grown up thinking was okay. Well, up until this weekend, he had been improving with no misbehaviour except an occasional grumble.

Yesterday, however he attacked my daughter. She came into the living room and straightened out the rug where the corner had ruffled up (she was 1 - 1.5 metres away from where he was lying) and he pounced at her. I had to drag him off her - he was still growling at her. She was very lucky to get away with a couple of small scratches on her cheekbone and a bruise.

Obviously, we can no longer keep him and we are all devastated. The behaviourist and our puppy trainer (who has known him since 10 weeks and has thought from then that he 'wasn't quite right') go along with my decision to have him put to sleep in the next couple of days.

I am in a bit of a dilemma as to what to tell Annie what is going to happen to him, I have told her that we are unable to keep him and she has not asked what will happen to him (I think that she thinks we will take him to Battersea - and we'll see him on the telly!) Do you think that I should tell her that we have found a new home for him, tell her the truth and if so, do I take her to the vet's with me?
She has not yet had to deal with death of anyone close, but I'm not too comfortable with lying to her. Any thoughts or experiences with this will be greatly appreciated.

I am so sorry to hear your news Helen. It's a very personal thing, but I was always brought up to believe that the truth is nearly always best - and liars have to have good memories. If your daughter finds out at a later stage that she wasn't told the truth she will wonder what other untruths' she was told. Can you explain to her that it appears that Toby has some big problems, maybe even something not right in his head, and to make sure he doesn't hurt anyone else the vet must give him a special injection that will stop his heart (don't use words like 'put to sleep' because that gets children worried about falling asleep themselves :-( ) It must be one of the hardest things you will ever have to do, and be prepared for lots of tears, and maybe even your daughter blaming herself - you will probably have to reassure her lots. Will you be getting another dog? Perhaps that could be something to look forward to (without seeming too hard hearted). Can you have a special place to remember Toby, for all the heartache he's caused you?
Thinking of you and your family {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}

Fran

If she were my child I wouldn't lie but I would say the dog was taken to the vets because of him being badly behaved and leave it at that. If she questions what the vet will do then saying that was up to the vet may answer her( I dont think that is really a lie?) Otherwise she may feel guilty and that is not a burden a child should have to bear.
Good luck

Ted

So sorry to hear the bad news Helen, but after a second attack on your wee girl putting the dog to sleep is the only sensible thing to do. Whay don't you tell her Toby has went to live with all the dogs up in the sky and he will have lots of fun there? Good luck, you must be feeling terrible just now. Best wishes.

Bear.

Dear Helen, I am so sorry, I do feel for you. I agree with Ted but if you should get another dog I wouldnt use the same vet to save anything untoward being said to your daughter. I dont think she should be made to feel at all guilty and a new start completely is much better in my opinion. I am not sure how old your daughter is but I am sure she will look forward to having another puppy in the house at some time in the future and should be able to grow up enjoying him/her without worrying about your present pup. I am sure whatever you decide to say will be for the best as she is your daughter and will have great faith in you. Best wishes, Gina.

Helen,

Im sorry to hear Toby went for your Daughter and as hard as it is I think you are doing the right thing.

If it was me I would tell my Daughter the truth.

How ever you tell your Daughter I wish you all the best sorry can't be of more help.

Karen

Helen I feel so sorry for you,you have done your very best,I also believe its best to be truthful with children as lies have a habit of coming back to haunt you.
When I was twelve our little kitten died and My Mum told me straight what had happened she also told me that people die too,a week later My father died aged 46yrs a perfectly fit and healthy man,I always wonder if the Kitten was meant to be there to help me to come to terms with the death of my father .Children see things in black and white and its amazing how they deal with situations and they can be told about Doggy Heaven.
Anyway I wish you the very best and my thoughts are with you.

I am so sorry for you Helen, you have certainly tried your very best and now have an unpleasant task ahead of you. I tend to agree with Digger's post in particular, and feel that honesty is best, but perhaps explained in a way that a child can understand. I would personally tend to follow Digger's (Fran's) suggestion, in particular, as that came across really well when I read it.

I would, i think, avoid saying anything ambiguous (is that the right word?) but make sure she understands what is happening and why, even though you may have to refer to a doggy heaven or something!

Very best wishes

Lindsay

Dear Helen

I am so sorry to hear this news. I really hoped it was the ear infection that had caused the problem. It is a tough thing you have to do but it will not be helped if you try and hide the truth.

You don't need to be hard or blunt with Annie - you know how naive or mature she is but do tell her the truth in language that she can understand. I don't think I would take her to the vets - it's going to be hard enough for you as it is. I also wouldn't wait a couple of days - it's not going to be pleasant at any time, only prolonging the agony before you can start to heal.

I think I would explain how sad it is that Toby has been nasty now on more than one occassion and that it is just to dangerous to have him around. If yoou think she can take the bit about him dying - possibly explain that the vet will give him something that will make his heart stop beating and that Toby will then be in heaven(if you believe that is) where he will be happy playing with lots of other puppies. If you don;t think she can take the bit about him dying, just don't tell her. Tell her he had to go away because of his behaviour. She'll figure the rest out as she gets older or you can tell her as she's better able to deal with it.

Please don't build her expectations by trying to protect her. It is hard but we all have to deal with it at some time - but being sensitively truthful is the best way.

I do sympathize, I really hoped that you had sorted this by giving Toby a chance.

very best wishes

Pam n the boys

The dog that bit my daughter had to be put down because of the severity of the bite. She was 18 months at the time and I also had a five year old daughter. I had been asked at the time by my then 5 year old what had happened to him, I lied. Because she is very sensitive and had lost another sister at 2 and a half, and then a grandma, I knew she wouldn't like the answer at that time. I said he went to live on a chicken farm where he can chase chickens all day.( Like that dog in Homeward Bound----one of her favorite movies). Later when the daughter who was bit asked I told her the same thing. This could be very wrong, but I went with my instincts---which is what you should do. I feel confident that when my girls are older and the topic comes up that they will understand. Little children , I feel, don't need to know everything. I like Ted's idea a lot. Also I think you should get another pup fairly soon. Young children bounce back very fast. It would do her good to start a bond with a loving puppy, they are possible ya know. I'm glad that she didn't suffer any lasting physical damage and I believe the new puppy will heal any emotional hurts. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

when i had to have a bitch pts because of cancer i told my grandson shed gone to heaven to play with the other dogsm my daughter ,his mother said ,thats what you used to tell us too, but we worked it out as we got older.BUT we understood that you did it for the best, id protect her from it, she'll understand when shes older why it was kept from her-its not what id consider a lie-more a white fib,--sorry anyhow that it didnt work out-are you having another puppy, if so will it be the same breed ,or have you decided to get one nothing at all like the one youve had such a bad time with,

I totally agree with dizzy the child is too young now, and later she will understand that you were protecting her, I always told mine they were gone to heaven . just as I told them when grandad died he was gone to heaven . Teds idea is also a good one . but at the end of the day , you know your child best and im sure you will do whats best for her mari

So sorry to hear your news, Helen. I go along with Fran's approach that it's best to tell children the truth or as near the truth as they can understand. Having Toby pts is one of the hardest things you will ever have to do & my thought are with you & your family. 25 years ago we had to have our first Cocker put to sleep for similar reasons - we loved him & I still think of him even now but he was too mentally damaged to live any kind of normal life as a family pet. I hope you will feel able to take on another puppy at some stage - a normal, happy pup will help to heal the hurt you are all feeling now, as we found out when it happened to us all those years ago.

Best Wishes

Jane

I am very sorry to hear your news Helen and know this must be very difficult for you. I do not feel that I am in a position to offer advice as I have no children myself but I am sure whatever you decide to tell her it will work out ok. Thinking of your whole family.
Lisa

Oh Helen, I've only just read your posting about Toby and Annie and I just wanted to say how sorry I am to hear about this.

In 1999 we lost our youngest child from a complicated cot death having spent 12days in intensive care. Jonathon was only 3.5 at the time but we knew that we had to be honest with him because he knew the baby was ill. We told him that the docotrs had tried really hard to help her get better but she was in too much pain and it wasn't fair to keep her going any longer. Jonathon is now 6 and understands that Imogen was very ill and in lots of pain, he also thinks she lives in the space station that we can see really brightly in the sky every now and again!! He thinks it's a star!!!

I've just asked Jonathon what he would like to be told if he was Annie and thought that saying Toby had been ill and in pain and you're taking him to the vets to die was best. He also said that he'd want to be there as he'd worry about it later on. As Annie knew that Toby had pain and problems with his ear maybe you could emphasis that and make that the reason for him being put to sleep and why he's bitten her.

I'm not sure when would be best to get another dog, but I wouldn't go back to the breeder or the same vet. You'll need to make everything different so Annie doesn't get worried that this situation may repeat itself. We've recently had another baby and Jonathon was very worried about her being in the same hospital when she was very ill as the hospital that Imogen died in. Luckily Isabelle pulled through and Jonathon has gotten over his fear of hospitals. If you do get another dog I'd advise you to take Annie with you when you first take the puppy to the vet so she doesn't think that all dogs go to the vets to be pts.

I hope this makes some sense, I've been up since 2am with Isabelle - she's got the flu and is very miserable and grumpy :(

Good luck,

fiona

Hi, I'm so sad to read this thread but am also very glad that your daughter wasn't more badly bitten. The reason I am writing this is just in case you decide to let your daugter go to the vets to see him put down. The very first dog I had put down was given the injection and soon after started flailing about wildly, and although the vet assured me that the dog " was out of it, and completely unaware of what was going on" it was very difficult to watch, and I ran out of the surgery in tears. When I had to have my beloved lab put down I was worried that this may happen again, and I did so want to stay with her. I asked the vet if he could do anything to make sure she went peacefully, and just go to sleep, rather than thrash about. He said he could give her a big dose of valium first ( injection in the big back leg muscle) and then the fatal injection when she was very sleepy. This is what we did, and it was so peaceful, I held her head in my hands, stroking and talking to her, til she went floppy and then he gave the second injection. Be prepared for him to wee and/or poo as he is going. I am sorry if this is distressing for you to read, but thought if you haven't had a dog put down before that it may be helpful. The valium injection just cost about another £5 on top of the usual fee and was worth every penny for me.

Hi, W L beat me to it. I would go with her advice one hundred percent. I also have experienced three young dogs put to sleep. Each one of them struggled terribly it was an experience that will haunt me forever. I was not aware that the vet could give a sedative until some years later. If I had been given the option, I would have paid whatever it cost to have had the valium injection first. Please don't take your daughter. It is hard enough for a adult to deal with and we have the benefit of reason. Leigh

May I also add my sympathies and support to you. It has been a horrible experience for you and you have had to make a decision that we all dread.

I am interested in what WL and Leigh have said about dogs struggling, I have heard about it once in relation to a dog put to sleep by a vet (not mine) in this area. However each dog I have had to have put to sleep by my own vet has just quietly gone to sleep, with no adverse reaction at all, and it has all been so peaceful. Talking to friends they have had the same experience as me apart from the one I mentioned before - she changed Vets because she was so upset. My vet does not sedate first, so does it possibly depend on what is used in the lethal injection, and if so, why don't they all use what my vet does? Could it possibly be expense?

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Joan, I have given it much thought over the years. It does haunt me.I have had to have very old dogs put down and they have always gone peacefully and at home.
I used the same vet and to my knowledge he used the same drugs and no sedative.
I wondered if the dogs I refered to struggled, because they were young? One of the dogs, needed a second injection whilst myself and a nurse tried to hold him down.
It was horrific. I wish that I had know it was possible to sedate them first at the time. I also wish that the vet had pre-warned me that it was possible that they would 'fight' it. :-( Leigh

I'll have a chat with my vet when I next see him and find out what his experience is, and how many he has had that have struggled. It must be awful if that happens.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

i agree with some of the other comments about not taking Annie to the vets - i have been very lucky, had 2 dogs pts one through kidney failure (nealry 11) and one through basically old age/a second stroke (nearly 16) and they went very peacefully with me holding them. One at the vets sadly, and one at home, more prepared.

Thank god it was peaceful and a gentle release. But, i have heard from others about how the vet couldn't find the vein, and one horrific one where the vet moved the needle about under the skin to find the vein - dog was terrified and hubby had to hold him down - awful.

I do feel at any rate, it would be too much for your little girl to witness, even if it was peaceful - but how about a "funeral" afterwwards? this is often recommended to help youngsters come to terms with grief and sadness. HOwever, at the end of the day, you know your little girl best and I am sure you will do what is best for her :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

I would recommend too, that if possible you have him put down at home, it is quite distressing waiting in the waiting room, with other people whose dogs are poorly, and them asking what wrong with yours, also paying afterwards is awful. When Revel- the lab- was put down , I actually paid them before the deed was done, so that as soon as she had "gone" they left, and I could have a bawl, without having to keep myself together to write cheques etc. I agree I think a funeral and a "service" is a good idea, though maybe let her miss the actual burial, unless he is in a box, its quite hard to actually shovel earth onto them, maybe cover him with his blanket . maybe give her the choice of being there or not perhaps your daughter could make up a little poem or prose to say and you could choose a rose bush or something pretty to grow on top of his grave. My lab has a beautiful pink climbing rose over her, and it brings cheer to a sad part of our garden. My thoughts are with you.

When we buried Bobby our tri rough collie my daughter who was 11 at the time wrote this little poem.
IN A NICE LITTLE GARDEN IN TYCOR
LYING PEACEFULLY UNDER A TREE
IS A TRI COLOUR COLLIE NAMED BOBBY
THE ANGELS TOOK HIM FROM ME
BUT THEN I DONT BLAME THEM IN HEAVEN
FOR WANTING THIS DOG BACK FROM ME
HE WAS KIND AND GRACEFUL AND GENTLE
AS ONLY A COLLIE CAN BE
THEVE LOANED ME ANOTHER CALLED SOPHIE
A DARLING WHAT ELSE COULD SHE BE
I WILL LOVE HER FOREVER AND EVER
SHE NOW MEANS THE WHOLE WORLD TO ME

JUST TO SHOW YOU HOW SHE DEALT WITH IT , A
FRIEND SAID YOU COULD SEE HER PAIN AND HER NEW HAPPINESS ALL
IN HER LITTLE POEM....BEST WISHES MARI

Hi, with reference to age, the first dog I had put to sleep was a 7 yrs old Westie, so just approaching middle age- not old by any means. The lab was 14, but of course had the valium jab, so dont know if she would have gone peacefully without it, I wasn't prepared to take the chance. The other dog I have sadly had to put to sleep, was when I was heavily pregnant and feel very guilty that I just handed him over to the vet nurse, said my goodbyes and left, I just couldn't handle it then. If ever I have to have a dog put to sleep again I will definately ask for them to have the valium jab first.

Toby was put to sleep this afternoon. It was at the vet's and they had arranged to have it done while the surgery was closed. Thankfully, he went quietly and calmly with a tummy full of cheese and sausages. Annie is unbelievably devastated (she stayed at home while I went), as am I, but I truly know that I have done the right thing and am so thankful for having had unanimous approval from you guys, the vet, behaviourist, trainer and friends. I dont think I could have done it had anyone disagreed.

I told Annie that Toby had a problem with his brain that the vets couldn't cure and that it would only get worse and so the vet was going to give him an injection just like his vaccinations, but that it would stop his heart and then he would close his eyes and go to doggie heaven and wait for us there. Her reply was that she didn't mind him biting her and that it didn't really hurt that much(!). The idea of a funeral is a really nice one - which I think we will do at the weekend.

Toby and I spent a lovely day at home - he finally got his lifetime wish of being allowed to come up onto the sofa for a cuddle and nap, then later we chased the birds in the park.

Annie has a lot to be looking forward to at the moment and I will try to help her focus on that - we are off to Norway for half-term next week and the week after we get back she in going on a school trip to Derbyshire for a week and then Disneyland Paris in May (she doesn't know about that one yet!).

We will be getting another pup (still a Cocker) later in the year and I will begin looking for breeders soon - If anyone would like to recommend one whose dogs have consistantly excellent temperamets (ideally in the South of the county) my email is h_wogel@hotmail.com

Thank you all for your support, it has meant a lot to me over the last few months.

Helen

Helen,

You poor thing. You don't need me to tell you that you did the right thing and by the sound of it in just the right way for both Toby and your little girl.

I could hardly read for the tears blurring my vision.

God Bless,

Linda

Helen, I echo Linda's sentiments exactly.
(((((hugs)))))))) for you - you deserve them as you have handled the situation so well and sensibly.
Sara

Very Best wishes helen

Helen

have e-mailed you privately

Pam n the boys

Helen - I am watching Dangerous Dogs on channel 5 as I write this - I can't begin to understand how you are all feeling, but wish you all the strength to continue with your lives and to give a great home to another little dog. (I grew up with Cockers, and I also cared for one with Cocker rage 'syndrome' so I've seen what a nightmare those sudden unprovoked attacks can be)
Best wishes

Fran

Helen

My thoughts are with you and I admire you greatly for having the strength to make an extremely difficult but necessary decision. Good luck for the future.

Lisa

I don't know what to say Helen that hasn't already been said.

{{{{{{{{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Just think of Toby playing by the Rainbow Bridge with all his problems long gone.

Claire.
x

I know it won't help or ease the pain but I really do feel what you are going through. I faced the same problem last year with my Afghan only it was me he went for and not my child. His breeders advised me that it it must be a brain tumour and to have him pts even though they had not seen him since he was 6 months old (he was 3yrs at the time). He like your dog had medical problems fortunately mainly diet related.

I like you stood by him, after all we who buy puppies have just as much responsibility as the people who breed them. We had one to one training, we saw a behaivourist etc and fingers crossed for us it is working. However I knew in my heart this was his last chance. So there but for the grace of god and so much usefull advice from not only the members of this board but others go I. I still have my dog and he is improving but I could so easily of been in your shoes - I admire your courage and bravery.

Helen,
Like everyone else, me and my girls send you and yours big , huge, tremendous hugs. It is painful but you did the right thing all around. Your daughter will bounce back you will see. There is a sweet puppy destined for you. Toby is in good hands up there waiting for you.

Helen
You made a very brave decision, which most of us only have to face when our dogs get old. Don't worry about Toby - he's got my Mint and Barti to play with at Rainbow Bridge, and all their troubles are gone.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I've been away for a few days and have just read your very sad news. I am so sorry I could cry for you. I know from reading your postings before how very hard you have tried. I am sure you will find the right way of explaining things to your daughter. Thinking of you.
Jackie x

I'm really sorry Helen
Love from
Jane

I'm so sorry it had to come to this Helen but the way things are you have no choice. I'm afraid that there are always some dogs around that are just mentally disturbed and there is no option but the take the route you now find yourself on. I think I said earlier that I had to go down this same route some years ago so I know what you are going through. If he had been my first dog then I don’t think there would have been a chance I would ever have had another but he wasn't. The death of him led me into my life with Labradors and I often wonder if, had he been all right, if I would ever have found my beautiful Labs?

Sometimes things are just meant to be!

My thoughts are with you. John

Do hope very much that you are feeling oK (and your little girl) and that maybe things are starting to seem just a little brighter.....you have been so brave.

Lindsay