Last night at training class we were speaking to a family who are at their wits end, they have a 5 month golden lab that is so aggresssive it has drawn blood and they are all terrified of it. This rang big alarm bells because I have never known of a young lab this bad. Story is they got it from somebody at 8 weeks, this guy had bought it from a breeder and his daughter did not want it, next day he rang breeder but she would not take it back, so he sold it on to this family. They have had dogs before, read all the books, hand in the food bowl, different family members feeding and walking, lots of training etc. However from 3 months it was challenging them, if you said no it would bare teeth and growl. The other day it stole a lasange from the worktop, when husband went to get lasagne the dog bit him and drew blood.
I would really appreciate your input on this one, they want to get it PTS, I suggested army or police but I don't know whether they would take an aggressive lab?????
This is an urgent problem, family are terrified and the bite has put them at the end of their tethers???
How serious is genetic aggression, and can something be done about a dog that has problems like this.

Not sure if this will work in your case, and I hope they can find something to rectify this as it sounds quite traumatic, but my lab would not listen to 'No' or 'other means' so I decided on the 2 strikes and she's out method. And this seems to be working very well...

what I do is first time she starts being naughty I warn her with a 'No', the second time I say 'No' and 'get in yoru bed' then if she continues she gets put int he kitchen (we have a stair gate across the kitchen door).

This way she can see us in the front room having fun, and she wants to be part of it, but she has to stay there for a few minutes looking sad. we then let her back out and start the 3 strikes rule again.

I have noticed after a few days she is learning.

She knows that she must'nt do things when we say no, otehrwise she is taken from the environment she wants to be in...

Hope things can be resolved with your friends lab...

David

My boy bit once, that was his final move. He was PTS the very next day, no questions asked. If he will do it once he will do it again and you have a family to look after. Its worth thinking about. The challenging etc can be delt with, but a bite is the biggest insult a dog can bestow upon its owner. I did it on Sunday and i'm glad. The dog was a liability, as is yours.
I hope you find a solution soon i really do.
Caz x

But this is a 5 month old PUPPY.

I would suggest two things

1 - Get a check up with the Vet to ensure the pup isn't in any pain that is causing the aggression, possibles with Labs are OCD and hip dysplasia which can cause pain, but even a foreign bosy trapped somewhere could do the same

2 - Make an appointment with a good behaviourist (emphasize the good), maybe your Vet coould suggest one, if not get on the APBT website and find one local to you. It could be that the Pup is not suited to a home with children, and needs an experienced and childfree handler to rehabilitate.

I really hope that they will try and find a solution for this pup, who sounds very miserable, maybe Lab Rescue would have contacts for behaviourists too

Good Luck

Hayley

Oh, must have missed that bit! Sorry! Its been a rough week you know?
I take it back! A very good behaviourist and trainer should do the trick!

I dont think you should recommend this course of action to everyone Miasmum. If I remember correctly your dog was over 2 years old and it was a very serious bite. My lab puppy drew blood when she was going through the mouthing period, and if these people arent used to labrador puppies may be confusing mouthing with aggression as many first time owners do! It does say that he bit him when he tried to take something away from him but he's a young dog and this should be able to be trained out of him fairly easily.

Sorry could somebody tell me what PTS is. I am learning a lot from this forum. Thanks to all

pts means put to sleep

Once I'd had him checked by a vet and if he was ok then I would not accept any challenge to my authority. I would put a rolled up news paper across his backside and put him outside for 30 minutes on his own. I feel that it would be better to do this now than have him put down in a few months time when he seriously hurts someone.

Thanks for all you advice, they have been putting him out but he does not take this as a punishment, they spend most of their time in seperate rooms from him anyway. I have a friend who trains gundogs but if this is idiopathic aggression I don't think he would be interested. We are going to see the dog this weekend and I have asked them to try and contact the breeder to find out if there have been any aggrresion issues with other pups, any breeder who had nothing to hide would no doubt offer some advice, I will keep you posted and any more opinions are gratefully received.

<<they spend most of their time in seperate rooms from him anyway>> Maybe this is part of the problem?

Could be that he hasn't been properly socialised and doesn't know his place in the pack or even that he is part of one?

Yeah thats what I was going to say. If they've taken the wrong meaning from mouthing and shut him on his own for long periods of times, he will have missed the most important parts of socialisation which would go some way to explaining his behaviour.

I personally would keep the dog on a leash while in doors of course a human at the other end at all times. This way you can give a correction at any time. Do alot of basic obedience like sit, down, stay, up, sit down, stay ect to enforce where the dog stands in the family and that is under his owners. Make him do some basic obedience before you feed him, maybe even hand feed him so he use to you giving him food and he associates this with good. You are alpha and that must be enforced. The reason for the leash is so that you can give a correction with out having to go and grab the dog. Also teach the leave it command, and out. This way if you drop something he learns leave it, and if he grabs something you can say drop it or out so he will drop anything he has. Set it up drop some food and as he goes for it say leave it and enforce that by giving a correction on the leash so he does not get it. I would not recommend anything other than a buckle collar at this age because his glands may still be swollen from teething. Also play with him and once he goes to bite say NO bite (have some bitter apple spray on your hands as well) in a low growl and stop all play if he continues, if he stops his bite praise/treat him.

A mother dog will growl at her pups if they are playing too rough, then she will nip them on the nose and stop all play. Puppies do this as well to each other thats how they learn how to play properly.

I really don't think shutting him out is going to help the situation, I truely think he just has to know where he stands in the family and right now he does not know so he is challenging you.

He's only 5 months maybe attend a puppy obedince class that should help. Never repeat a command if they don't do it the first time make them. Lets say you say sit dog refuses make them sit then praise. Only tell them once, rather then that they don't think they need to listen the first time and they won't.

Good luck :)

EDIT: If they have children it is a good idea for them to tell the dog to sit, laydown ect to enforce that he is under them as well so he knows they are not his playmates. If he does not sit then the adult must enforce it and the child treat/praise the dog. The child could ask the dog to sit then give him his food bowl. This way he also learns that all food comes from his humans and not the floor.

I suspect these people may have read books, but what books? No good up to date book says to leave a pup alone a lot. This is the impression i have, so sorry if it is not correct, but if this IS the case ....Is he really mostly on his own :( ? When did they start the hand in the bowl feeding.... I have a feeling that something here is amiss, and that it is the interraction or as sugg ested earlier even lack of it that is the problem.

I have found that when many owners say "no", they show strong or aggrressive body language, often much stronger than is needed. A pup may go into one of the 4 coping strategies - fight, flight, freeze or fiddle about. My dog would always do the last, which meant that saying NO caused far more problems than not. I had to work out other ways to communicate and have started to understand just how much body language can show a dog. I suspect that there is some stuff going on that you haven't been told about.

The scenario with dog stealing lasagne, owner trying to get it back, dog reacting is not uncommon. Many dogs can be trained out of this (and it doesn't have to be harsh training, it is more a case of teaching understanding). I know a behaviourist who has successfully re-trained a genetically aggressive goldie in very similar situations but you need family dedication and an experienced and excellent motivational trainer. Not all of them will know how to help.

suggestions to put PUPPIES to sleep without even trying a good trainer or behaviorist, without checking out if there is a medical problem, etc are IMHO - well let's be polite and say "jumpoing the gun a little" . If everything has been tried and there is some insurmountable evidence the dog is unsafe, fine, but until then each owner IMHO has a responsibility to try their hardest.

There is far too little to go on to give safe or effective advice, i would suggest a vet visit first and then a referral. Most dogs do bite for a reason - hence i would also totally avoid leash "corrections" as this may mask the problem/make it worse. The Idiopathic aggression you mentioned is not common and occurs most frequently in dogs aged over 1 year. It also refers to a particularly violentunpredictable attack on people or animals and may be characterized by twitching, glazed eyes etc. I doubt very much that it is this :) . John is the man on here who knows Labs, he may havesome other suggestions.

I do wish them luck,

Lindsay

There is very little I can add to your post Lindsay. Labradors tend to respond to people rather that being shut away. This only adds to the excitment and makes things worse when the dog is brought out of isolation. Calm quiet handling would be I feel rather better. As Lindsay says, 5 months is very young for dominant aggression to start in fact if I read it right it was not even 5 months that it started, it was 3 months! These people might be experienced but I wonder how experienced? You can have a number of relativly easy dogs but the first difficult one can still be a shock!

I also question the breeder who would not take the puppy back!!!!! I think that speaks volumes

Regards, John

Well said Lindsay.

liberty:)

I read this post with interest.This is a 5 month old lab. Just a baby. It's difficult to comment when we haven't met the dog or seen his undesired behaviour, but it sounds to me like a young pup who is trying to be dominant & needs to learn some manners & know where the boundaries are & what is acceptable & what's not acceptable bahaviour. To recommend or even think about euthanasia for a young pup really worries me. Let's look at the facts.
1 - pup was bought for daughter but next day was not wanted.
2- breeder wouldn't take him back, so was taken on by someone who possibly didn't really want him.
3- he spends most of his time away from them.
4- "he has drawn blood & they are all terrified of him"
I think these people need help & advise, before the situation gets worse. If they are frightened of the dog & he's not getting socialized, it's not a good situation for the dog.
hope they get some help soon.

UPDATE - Well, I went ot see Zak for the first time today and I am in love, I nearly had hime home with me but I have no room.
He is as daft as a brush, and it is obvious he is from working stock and therefore in the wrong environment, under stimulated and not enough training. The biting is nipping with very sharp teeth that has gone unchecked, he has no concept of what he is doing, it is just attention seeking.
I put him on a long lunge rope for control and then spent some time playing with a toy and taking it away, touching his face, and feet etc. All of this initially caused a terrible fuss, but within no time he was fast asleep by my side. Mum was shocked and said he never sleeps during the day etc. He was perfectly content and is not aggressive, simply the wrong dog for this family. I have found him a home with a friend who has a farm in Dunbar and trains and breeds gundogs, he even has a new owner in mind, chap looking for a lab. I have offered the family training help or the new home so it depends what they choose, hopefully he will be rehomed and will go on to make a cracking little gundog.
I am so relieved and I am grateful for all your advice.

glad there is a happy ending if he is from working stock then he is obviously bored through under stimulation, i used to work in a kennels where the owner bred labs and springers mainly for work, i was surprised even with people who had owned labs before and worked their dogs would return a labrador at 6 months of age mainly for the following reasons, jumping up, biting, too lively, i had a lab from him and she does jump up at people but it is always the same people those that encourage her.
people think that labs especially yellows are and will stay the 'cute little andrex puppy on the telly that little johnny wants' without realising that these dogs need stimulation and in some cases some need as much stimulation as a border collie.
any way really glad that this 5 month will hopefully land on his feet :)
tanya

Johnny wanted, Johnny got and Johnny loves his BIG Andrex dog to bits Tanya!

Johnny ;)

:D

There were times that Toby got a bit out of hand, and he did once bit my son 10yrs old, but we soon stopped him, just showed him by using a rolled up news paper we didnt hurt him with it just showed him we are in charge not him and we would also put him in kitchen for 10mins, by this time he would have calmed down so we would let him out of kitchen and fuss him tell him how good he was, it worked for us and now he never gets out of control.

The social exclusion thing is good if you can keep your cool. Kuma's behaviourist advised that one. You just have to remember not to speak to the dog and not to use p****d off body language lol. Repeat this until the dog can behave in your space. It does work, it just takes time.

i would like to thank you for taking thetime to help out the poor pup and family - can't believe the breeder sold him as a pet!!!
I'm pleased to hear the outcome is a positive one and it leaves me with a warm fuzzy feeling that little un is now going to lead a happy and fulfilled life!!!!!
THANKYOU on behalf of all us doglovers!!!!

Kayley

I think it's brillliant too :)

The post also illustrates that we must never just assume a dog or pup is actually aggressive just because a family says so !!!!!

Well done for giving one pup a good chance :)

Lindsay

my solution is to go and buy a book called the dog listner,because at 5 months he's trying to find his place in the pecking order and obviously wants to be top dog,which it sounds to me like he already is.He's got everyone scared of him.If they read it through and put everything into action they will notice an imediate change in him.He's young so it can be corrected.

I am glad that you have confirmed what I suspected; wrong dog in wrong home! It is certainly an issue with dogs that are bred to work and are then homed by "pet" people who cannot provide an outlet for all that business and therefore start labelling their dog "aggressive, dominant" etc and then totally inappropriate "solutions" are recommended which have no relevance to the dog in question. The "solution" in this case is to place the dog in an environment suited to its needs rather than trying to "correct" a "problem" that the dog does not have!

Beautifully put :) Wrong dog in wrong home - NOT dominance or aggression.

I read this thread with great interest and am sooooooooooooo pleased there is ahppy ending here, but makes you wonder how many working strain gun dogs get mis-diagnosed and because of inexperienced oweners subsequently get PTS. :(.................. but still a great ending on this scenario!