my gsd is a female aged 7 months and hates other dogs(she was attacked as a small puppy)started training classes 6 weeks ago and she has become worse he uses a water training collar to calm her down but that only works for a while we are not novice owners had a male gsd for 8 years and no problems dont want to give up on her but things are getting so bad if she was a human I would say she had mental problems as she goes mad when she sees a dog pulling whining panting growling snapping for the last 6 weeks trainer has said she was trainable but now he says I have a real problem she is very dog aggressive and will attack when she is an adult I have 3 kids and can see big problems she also has started jumping at you with all 4 feet off the ground she almost has complete mad moments came home from training my hands were red rore from holding her and everybone in my body ached dont know if I can face going back we need help

Just a thought ..but have you tried using a halti whilst out walking? They do tend to give you more control over the dog.

I would also seriously think about getting a second opinion over the dogs behaviour ...not ALL behaviourists are of the same standard ;)

i too suggest that you change trainers as this training isnt helping your gsd

definitely get a second opinion before making any major decisions.

Use a halti there are great and yu can use them in training classes, she is a puppy and can change with the right help. We have a 6yr GSD that was attacked at 9 mths but thankfully she was alright the bext days he went out mingling with people and dogs the only little bit of fear she has is strange man not sure if that is to do with the owner of the dog being a man.
As everyone says get a second opinion

Cordelia

I would suggest a second opinion too.

What may have happened is that your girl was scared once, now gets upset/angry at other dogs nearby, or approaching, and needs to learn that other dogs are in fact mostly OK. The water collar (not sure what this is - do you mean a spray collar?) often does help, but i would put a question mark over it because SOME dogs will just keep associating any form of unpleasant experience with nearby dogs.

I sometimes walk with a rehab group for dog aggressive dogs. The trainer does use a spray collar on some dogs, but not others.

I have a Belgian Shepherd, who was attacked once and became defensive aggressive for a short while. I would not have considered a spray collar, because she was scared - her body language was ears back, wanting to get away really. It may have stopped her reacting, but in my view would also have taught her that scary things happen aroudn other dogs.

Whereabout are you? There are a few trainers that specialise in this sort of problem and have stooge dogs and so on.

Lindsay

Try a different trainer. See if this will help.

we are in cambridgeshire have tried halti but she hates it so tried harness had more control with that trainer insisted that half collar half choke are the best but she nearly hangs herself with it (walks nice to heal until she sees another dog) sorry water collar is a spray collar could not think of the right words this morning!!the spray collar to hire or buy works out expensive dont mind paying but I could spend all that money and have no way of noing for sure if it is going to work also looked into residential training but thats £500 and again how can you say for sure it is going to work does any one know of any trainers who have stooge dogs as I think that sounds that it is worth a try thanks sam

Definitely try another trainer - I firmly believe that some trainers are just not well equiped to deal with dogs like GSDs and they almost 'give up'. We have had similar experiences with our GSD, although not dog agressive, and one trainer told us that there 'was nothing more that we can do' which we refused to belive. Did some research and found another trainer - we still have a long way to go but things are improving. i would also suggest that maybe you want to try either a Bach Herbal remedy (PM if you want to talk about this) or maybe even a Valarium compund - this is not a sedative but will just calm the dog a little.

Good luck and keep me posted, I can totally empathise with what you are going through!!!

Jayne

jayne cant em you email me on samantha.humphreys2@ntlworld.com thanks never thought of a herbal remedy any body any trainers I can try sooner rather than later please

hi

thats the trouble it only takes one bad experience to cause problems is she as bad off the lead with other dogs,she might feel trapped while on the lead , if it were my dog i would be worried too in case it did another dog harm get in contact with a specialist dog trainer who works solely with gsd's,probably be better with one to one training at the mo or just one other dog around sometimes training classes are so manic it makes the dog behave worse when i took my puppy to classes or she wanted to do was get off and play spent the evening pulling her away from the other puppies which is;nt easy as we all sat next to each other ,she ended up choking herself and the next day would have the runs so i gave up and socialised on her walks and trained her myself ,the point i am making is we are led to beleive puppy classes are good for them i am not sure being in a room with 6 other dogs trying desperately to get their undivided attention works ,dogs gets stressed so does owner!

I had a dog that had this similar problem. Try putting him in a situation with other dogs smaller than him (but keep him on a leash with a muzzle and at a distance from the other dogs at first, until you see how he reacts) Our dog showed aggression when he was with dogs his size or larger. He showed this fear because he was attacked as a puppy by a larger dog, so him being around bigger dogs made him feel like that little puppy again. We tried a trainer but that made things worse because he was bigger than our dog (in the dogs eyes) and he did nothing but show authority to him therefore still instilling that fear of something bigger than him attacking him. So we tried muzzling him and letting him be around smaller dogs so he could learn that not all dogs are out to hurt him and we gave him lots of love and patience. Sometimes kids are at risk because of this I had a 2 year old daughter at when i had this dog. To help him learn that she was not the enemy we would made it her job to feed him and give him treats so that way he learned to trust her. I hope this can help.

shon

Please try again with the halti they do work honestly, I tried one on my dog at 4-5 months old and she literally threw herself at anything just to rub up against the halti. She stuck her head between my legs (We walked down the road like this lol). She threw herself on any patch of grass just to try and rub it off. So i gave up!
However this month i just can't pull her back anymore (9stone) and my arms are in agony so i HAD to try the halti again, i persevered and spent alot of time with her and the halti(about 2weeks in all) and finally she accepts it (still has the occasional rub).
At last I got my arms back!!

Sarah ;)

If you are in Cambridgeshire, maybe try Charlie Clarricoates' place? It's www.charlies-dogs.co.uk. He's a trainer who does lots of hands on stuff, and has gSDs of his own, and seems to understand how to be kind and firm. He does i believe have stooge dogs but you might have to check on that one. I don't know him, but he does some very good articles for Your Dog magazine.

Lindsay

my girl is right i hadproblems with my dog accepting the halti so put it on him at home when he was relaxed and kept feeding him treats slowly for the duration he had it on. then cut down to treats when he went to scratch and saying no when he stopped got treat and he has learnt that it a good thing. slowly worked up to putting lead on trailing round house then actually going for walks. if he scratches now tell him no an when he stops he gets a treat. almost never scratches now and when first got it he skinned his nose he scratched so hard. so do perservere and you will get there and its a god send if you have an agressive dog as it redirects there gaze and shuts their mouth good luck and perservere with the training. even if it is just taking her to watch for a while with the dogs walking past her and every time she sits and watches the dog go past praise her and if she will accept it a bit of sausage or cheese so rewarding the good behaviour and work up from there. she will then learn that sitting quietly is good and that the other dogs are not interested in hurting her. hope this helps tracey

thanks lindsay have found website and phone number will ring in morning

You know that is a good idea Tracey i often sat in the park with Dolly and we watched the world go by!!
But i can only emphasise the halti, please try again i never ever thought my dog would accept it but she did. Its a nightmare trying with them and you go through oodles and oodles of treats!!
Plus get a second opinion as it seems like your trainer has just given up?

Sarah

I agree too put the haltie back on. It takes patience and time and ur dog will soon accept it. When I first put one on Cuervo (shepherd/collie) she hated it and would rub at it every now and then during our walk and rub on grass but it was better then having her pull me. Taz well it never bothered him at all, he walks excellent with it and when he was just on a buckle well you knew, he pulled you every where.

Good luck :)

Hi, sorry to butt in on this post, but I am having similiar problems with my 6 month old GSD bitch as well, I keep getting told i'm going to have problems with her as well! She is fine off lead, but on lead it's a night mare - she is also scared of people (who aren't surrounded by dogs!!!!)
I like the idea of an individual trainer - puppy classes are always leaving me depressed about how badly she is doing (don't think they like GSD's- they seem to prefer the little dogs!!!!) I have tried the link in one of the posts on here, but everyone is miles away from us!! has anyone got any ideas or reccommendations of trainers who are used to GSD's in the warrington area (cheshire) I would also be happy to travel to areas around stockport, macclesfield, altrincham, knutsford or Runcorn!! (If you know the area, you'll have a rough idea of what I mean!!!

I hope yu have good luck with your little madam, keep us posted with your progress!!!!

love Kayley
xxxxxxxxxx

Well I'm afraid there really is no hope for your trainer, but I'm sure your dog has much better prospects!

Ring the other trainer, and let us know how you go on. I don't know if this will help you or not, but I run a message board that supports people with problem dogs, you can let off steam about a bad day or tell us all about achievements that seem little to some people, and know that other people realise what a huge deal it is! The website address is in my profile if you want to join.

Best of luck with the new trainer, I've seen his articles in Your Dog and he seems like a really good trainer, I'm sure he wont write off your dog and will help you realise that there is hope!

Good luck,
Jo

well rung trainer and was told couldnt see anyone for a month and then only on a thursday hubby has car for work allday so only have car on weekends and evenings so I need to find someone more flexible who will get started sooner !!!

Oh thats such a shame - i was really hoping he could help. Is it totally impossible for you to have the car on thursdays? it's just that good, knowledgeable trainers are hard to find..... even if you find one who specialises in gSDs, some of them are very forceful and just think dominating a dog is the answer, whatever the problem!! :(

I think the link given earlier may have been for the States, so try www.apdt.co.uk. Alternatively, can Charlie C recommend anyone?

There was also a place called Scampers, i think it may be in the same road or very close to Charlies. He worked there for a while.

Lindsay

The place at Scampers is called Wits-end, The lady who runs it is Sarah and she is quite good, she helped us with one of our dogs who had nervous aggression, the best help we had though was from David Appleby who was really good and we now have a much better behaved dog.
Can you get your vet to refer you to him he is at the Queens vet school in Cambridge.

Hi Madmum
I agree with everyone on this post, that you need to seek out a new trainer. I would sound a word of warning though (as another poster did) that some trainers who 'specialise' in gsd's have a view that they should be 'hard-handled' into submission. I don't mean all by any means, so all you good trainers out there please don't attack me - but we all know they are there, the Stephen King type trainer who needs shooting! I also would never consider residential training, as you don't know what is being done, and the techniques often don't transfer to the owner anyway. IMO training should be done by the owner under the guidance of a trainer/behaviourist. She is only 7 months, and her character hasn't been fully moulded yet, so you have every chance of getting her back on track. Along with everyone else, I agree persevere with the halti. She doesn't like it - none of them do, but the alternative could be you giving up. If you can get some areas working (like the control on the lead) other problems seem less severe, as you will be less stressed, and you will be able to work on them more calmly. Lets not forget she is also just getting into adolescence too, not the easiest of times! (mine is 10 months). I really wish you well, and please keep us posted (pardon the pun!)
Kat

I'm just wondering how you tried the halti?
You might need to try again from scratch, taking it very slowly.
Start by looping it over your wrist, and feeding a nice treat, so the dog get used to it being there.
After a few trials, slowly bring the noseband up and put that on, while continuing to feed treats. Once the dog's accepted it being on the nose (and not before) you can fasten it up, and then play a really nice game.
After that you put it on for 10 minutes and play a fun game (so the dog hasn't got time to worry about the thing on it's face) and take it off again.
You repeat that until he gets excited when he sees the halti, because he knows it means game. You need to make sure only good things happen when he's wearing it until he's completely accepted it.

Try it that way and let us know how it goes. Oh by the way, I agree with the others, keep looking for your perfect trainer!

Jo

Hi,

I've just read your thread and your GSD sounds very much like my friend's dog. My friend got her GSD from rescue at about 2 years of age. When she saw another dog, she would lunge at it, barking, growling, snapping - the whole bit. It looked very nasty.

When my friend first got her dog, we used to walk our dogs together. My male bullmastiff is generally very calm and tends to ignore barking, lunging dogs so he took no notice of all her carrying on. We'd walk them on lead for ages and the GSD did calm down. We did have to watch them off lead as my boy at that time was still very young and bouncy and he could be too much for the GSD.

Now the GSD goes to a training class where the trainer is well used to dealing with problem GSDs. Now my friend's dog can happily mix with other dogs without any problem. I now have 2 bullmastiffs and we can walk the 3 of them together and have all the dogs off lead.

There is hope for your dog. Find a different trainer. The one you've been seeing just won't be able to help you.

Tracey.

Had a simular problem with my colle/lab years ago would stalk other dogs pounce and attack when off lead and bark and lunge when on the lead.I found the best way to curb this was to always have his ball with me at all times he was obsessed with this and in a situation or before it would arise i would pull this out and throw it for him or G him up with it untill other person had passed etc. I would get your GSD focussed on a throw toy or simular squeker and produce this at the times when you want him to pay you attension if he thinks you will play he should sit stay etc on demand Also never underestamate how much exersize a young or for that matter adult GSD needs to let off pent up energy if you dont want to walk miles throw a ball for him up and down the field,a good idea for you and the dog to have a warm up (brisk walk) fist though.... All the best

Sandie,

That's it, i had forgotten. I think Sarah (Is it Whittaker?) is linked with Dr Peter Neville in some way.

It's good to hear you had some good help with your dog from David Appleby :) Was the problem nervous aggression and how did he help? (Sorry if i am being too nosey!!!)

Lindsay

Hi Lindsey,

Yes it is Sarah Whittaker and I think she is from the same training school as Dr Peter Neville.

We were referred to David Appleby by our vet because our dog who at the time was 11 months became very nervous of people and other dogs, her way out was to attack and it was a real problem as we had just got another puppy who she took a dislike to. David was brilliant he worked with her for 2 hours and showed us ways to distract her when she was in attack mode, by the time we left he had her sitting on his lap, we were also able to talk things over with him by e-mail. Our dog is now so much better although we still watch her and she and the puppy are best of friends.
David Appleby also has a good video and book out which go over alot of dog problems.
Sandie.

Ok this is everyone talking about having problems with their dog onlead.. Go to the store tomorrow and get yourself a Gentle Leader.. Dont be a sissy and take it off the second your dog acts like he doesnt like it.. it takes time to get used too! I also have a big dog (6 mnth old GSD) who has problems pulling on the lead.. it worked for me in 10 min .. give it a try

But surely taking it off the second the dog acts like he doesn't like it is only rewarding the 'I don't like it' behaviour - surely it's better to introduce it carefully in the first place so it's always associated with something the dog likes?

I found that a fortnight of putting a headcollar on a dog when feeding it, and taking it off after the meal, soon overcame most feelings of antipathy from the dog.
:)

That's excellent Sandie, David Appleby seems to be very good, it's nice to hear of behaviourists who also have that hands on experience and will work with the dog and owner :)

Lindsay
X

well have managed to find a trainer in soham the school is called hot dogs and they have a session for problem dogs on a tuesday evening only 4 dogs its not training in the sense of sit or down its just to do with there problem.£10 a session and you only pay when you are able to attend and it does not matter if you attend every week or not will post again next week wish me luck

Good luck! :-)

Good luck and dont worry about your little dogs behaviour in the class - theyre all there for a reason.:)

Best of luck! Don't despair, you'll learn how to communicate with each other.

Re Haltis and Gentle Leaders, I think the trick is to put it on and immediately take the dog walking at a fairly brisk pace. Communicating to the dog: what we are doing here is not about the thing on your face, it's about this movement I'm directing you to do. Don't let them stop to think about it, don't let them start rubbing... associate it with your being in control of the walk. It also facilitates a very efficient alpha roll should a really rambunctious dog cross the line.

well update decided to take the bull by the horns (so to speak)put a gentle leader on her this evening and went out for a very brisk walk had a mad 5 minutes of trying to flip over then she walked brilliantly for 40 minutes I could not get over it spent the whole walk smiling this was the best walk we had ever had we met 2 dogs and she had a small growl but that was it we even met some cats and she again small growl but that was it.
the first training lesson at hot dogs at soham went very well going again tomorrow she seems to think that aprils temperment is fine but she is just so scared around other dogs we are trying the clicker but thats been hit and miss as the fireworks have been to much for her but we are working on trying to calm her down also learning the command stop which is a hard one lol I think we might get somewhere in the end thanks to you all!!

Never give up!
:)

Awww Well Done !!!! :)

Sarah

Great to hear a positive result for you. :)

had the same problem i had two huskies here for rehome ,have you tryed putting the halti on indoors first??? just a thought but it worked for me ,just pop it on no big deal made of it, yep she may thro a paddy but she will get used to it .just leave it on when your at home ,there made so your dog can pant drink ect so she wont come to any harm.

Just a question from a curious Irish/Canadian... What does throw a paddy mean?
H

throw a paddy means have a tantrum, going mad, that sort of thing.
Hope that helps,
Jo

Thanks for swift reply. Understood that much but was curious about use of word "paddy" in the UK. Is this accepted usage? I understand we're much more PC in Canada but using that kind of phrase is considered very bad form over here.
H

Hi Honora,
According the the OED, 'paddy' has been used as meaning a temper-tantrum since 1894! (short for 'paddywhack').

Of course, it is also the name of the field where rice is grown.....
:)

Honora "paddy" is quite simply a saying and wasnt there to offend anybody,and as somebody kindly pointed out one thats been used in this country for a long time,but as for "pc"and "accepted usage" i can assure you its fine !but may i ask what you mean by "that kind of phrase" after all this chatroom was about dogs last time i looked ,not about how2 be pc or petty comments. your speeking to a person thats french italian and english im sure theres alot of comments/saying that i could take offence to on lots of sites but surley theres a time and a place????

just a quickie about "PC"..did you know they're not allowed to sing "Baa Baa black sheep" in nurseries/school anymore.
Political correctness is just going tooooo far now, IMO

Hi Steph i know your not, stupid isnt it? i also collected Robinsons Golly badges as a child they have now been discontinued!!!!!!!! dont get me wrong im by no means racist but its going a bit far ,IMO

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that