I am horrified by the advice to take a big powerful dog & eyeball him - it's asking to have your face taken off. There are so many novice owners reading this board that it's an irresponsible suggestion. I have done it with my smaller breed - all legs off the ground, but I wouldn't dream of doing it to my large boy, - even if I had the strength!! By all means give him a short sharp shock, but your tone of voice & banishment should be enough in most situations.
So - to anyone reading this topic - please don't try this at home!
Emma - you're trying so hard, I'm sure you'll get there in the end!

To validate my point about 'scruffing', I may have given the wrong impression. I have (occasionally) scruffed my dogs from behind, rather like a bitch will scruff her pups, not 'in their face' - although I will at times insist on them watching me, which I will do with my hand under their collar, but not with my head down, and only when my dogs were older and our relationship was secure and I could rely on their reaction.

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding

Hayley

I've just caught up with this thread and thought I would add my twopenneth as I had similar problems with Saffy when she was going through her adolescence. Obviously however, over a board it is difficult to know if it is exactly the same so I will tell you what happened with Saffy. Indoors, if I tried to get her out of the living room and she didn't want to go, she would challenge me by barking at me and if I persisted she would jump and grab at me (not biting). What I did to stop this was get a rolled up newspaper, tell her 'OUT' and hit the wall or the sofa with the paper. When that stopped working (the appeal of my three boys and the living room is too much for her sometimes), I smacked her with it, on her bottom (only on one or two occasions). She now always goes out when told with no paper around at all and has for months.

I also had a big problem with her in the garden. Due to excitement I think, she would run at me, jump up and grab my arms. I was bruised all over. This was difficult to stop with any method until I again used a rolled up newspaper.

The third difficult time was when we were out walking and it was time to go home, or she had been hyped up by another dog that we walked with. She would tear around and run straight at me at full speed (very scary considering she is about 35kgs). Then she would start jumping up and biting my arm and generally looking to an outsider like she was attacking me. I tried lots of ways of stopping this, but eventually, at my wits end did what one man suggested who had seen her do it and whacked her on her nose with the lead handle as she jumped. I know you should not hit a dog on its nose, but I was getting to the point where I didn't want to take her out. Anyway, it worked! I have only done it twice, and she learned quickly not to do it. She still occasionally does the high speed run at me, but I just hold her lead in front of me and she stops.

I know lots of you will say you shouldn't smack her on her nose and so on, but up until these problems developed, being my first dog, I had never smacked her for anything. I always tried the ignoring, or the putting out of the room and so on. I still do put her out of the room if she does something she shouldn't. I do not need to smack her now. I find the same with my children - one smack and they only need a threat next time. I think I let Saffy turn into a lippy teenager through a lack of firm handling when very young. Now I have rectified that I have the most fantastic, happy dog. Everyone loves Saffy, friends and strangers alike. She is a celebrity at my children's school and she is everything I ever wanted in a dog.

Sorry to go on so much, but I do still remember how I felt when she went through that phase and want you to know that with the correct (not necessarily what I did) handling, you will hopefully have a lovely dog.

Fiona and a well behaved Saffy.

I remember your problems Fiona, glad Saffy is well behaved now :)

The smacking or whether to use physical punishment debate will always go on, as it is just like the debate on whether or not to smack children and most mothers have strong views on that, some are very anti, some swear it does them good.

My view is that the very occasional smack to dog or child is not the end of the world, but done lots is very damaging. It should not be necessary and if the owner seems to think it is, then there is a very big communication breakdown somewhere :( which is down to the owner to solve, as dogs can't think like us and don't have our values.

I choose not to smack now and have honestly never needed to for many many years. I would rather take a behavioural route. For example, if my dog kept snapping at me, i would implement all i knew, and if that did fail, I would use sometning like the MasterPlus spray collar.

I am also very conscious that posters (not referring to any on this thread, just to make clear!) don't always tell the truth or give the full picture, i was once to my surprise able to see two views, one from a poster on a site, and one from that poster's trainer on another site. I can't go into details, but many suggested being quite hard on the dog in question, but on the trainer's insistence he was taken for medical checks, and found to have quite bad hip dysplasia. He was givne painkillers and never aggressed again :)

There was also a site in Australia, where one member was given advice to "correct" their dog physically. The dog attacked the owner as a direct result of this advice and the dog was pts :( The owner tried to sue the board but didn't succeed. So although i agree that 99 times out of 100 advice to physically punish may not cause a problem, there is still a chance it could.

I also think that some not particularly dog wise owners will resort to punishing physically too much, or in the wrong way. There' s a few interesting cases on www.scallywags1.freeserve.co.uk, go to Index and then Why there is no place for punishment in training - (one case includes a dog reacting badly to an electric shock collar, and mauling his dog friend :( )

Anyway just my thoughts, I appreciate we all have different views on this :) ;)

Best wishes
Lindsay
X

hi

i don't smack but i know alot of people do because it does work teaching animals by using physical pain is common practise i personally don't like to see it ,also tiring puppies and dogs out is not always the answer to quiet them down a dog gets use to the exercise he gets,the more you give the fitter he becomes and then the more he needs, also if you take him out every day he comes to expect it and won't settle until he's been out ,then what happens if your not feeling well and you can't take him out its best not to take them out every day ,a puppy has to learn how to control its bad moods giving it so much exercise that its too knackered to be naughty does'nt work in the long run!

I would have to say that no-one on here has suggested using physical pain - a quick slap on the bum does not equate to physical pain in a dog of substantial size.

I would have to say that clearly dog owners are becoming far more tolerant. Can everyone really say, hand on heart, they haven't tapped or given a naughty adolescent puppy a quick smack? I have - when I caught Willis chewing the conservatory...he was told NO and had a smack on the bum. So, I'm very sorry if that makes me a "bad owner" or is "downright dangerous" - but we are not all angels with buckets of patience and replaceable conservatories :)

I run a very busy house, I have several jobs, horses, danes, children...there is just not always time for distraction techniques. Willis chewed as puppies do - but being a dane, the damage was greater. He has learned, and he is very very well behaved now. So lets not rule out the old fashioned ways just yet eh :)

hi

if the slap on the bum did'nt hurt then it would have no impact any form of smacking inflicks pain thats the whole point of using it isn't it??? if a dogs misbehaves then gets a smack and never does it again then that smack must of hurt to make that kind of impression!!,the dog does'nt do it again because its fearful of what it will get

and please nobody suggested you were a bad owner so don't be over sensitive

Hi Jackie,
No, a slap needn't (and shouldn't) hurt to have an effect! The noise made startles the dog and instantly distracts its attention from what it was doing.
:)

but what noise is that ? you have to be kidding now they stop because they don't like the noise of the hand or whatevers hitting their backside!!!LOL LOL

Not kidding at all, Jackie. A sharp sudden noise will distract a dog from whatever it's doing, and the contact will also make it jump. Of course, as soon as it has stopped doing the 'wrong' behaviour you can praise like mad!

The slap is a short, quick, shock to make the dog immediately stop what its doing - NOT to cause pain or inflict suffering. JG is right, the noise, and shock is the desired effect. For a start, Willis is so big and muscular it would take a lot more than a quick slap to hurt him. I would never "hit" him, nor slap his face, nor nose.

My dog is not fearful of what he will get either - that would make me a bad owner.

Nor am I sensitive - just fed up with the same old reactions to the same suggestions. And if you look, my post was made in GENERAL, not just directed at you.

look hitting hurts you may think it has'nt stung his bum but it must have to make him stop in his tracks ,if it works for you and you have no problem with its fair enough i would imagine danes are very hard work ,i have never owned one so you would know better than me the best way to teach them

he is hard work - or rather, he was...rather like having a small pony charging round the house. but, i can honestly promise you that Willis does not feel pain like normal dogs. if he gets stung, he doesn't even flinch - and a slap on his bum is like a pat to him. If he has had a smack, it has been because he is too used to the word "no" and I have used it to startle him and stop him doing what he was doing.

my point in this whole post is that just sometimes people shouldn't be made to feel guilty for reacting in a human way and giving the dog a smack to make him sit up and listen, if all else fails. for what its worth, i agree with you re the exercise...i think thats masking the problem, not dealing with it :)

A slap on a dog's rump should be no more painful than you clapping your hands!!!!

I don't condem you for the kind of smacking your talking about i personally don't use it and i have to admit my puppie is naughty and maybe i am too soft on her but it would hurt me more to smack her firstly because i could'nt be sure what would hurt or want would'nt i would just feel awful if i made the mistake of smacking too hard but you have to admit some people become slap happy and this is not directed at you

very true... but i am pretty sure that if she snapped at your face and started worrying you with her behaviour, you would consider it ;)

I have admitted I have smacked my dog Saffy in the past, on the very odd occasion and I am almost certain it doesn't do much more than startle her and make her realise that she is doing something I do not like. I know this because she is not at all frightened of my hands or me (or anything else for that matter). Also, once I trod on her paw by accident and she yelped several times and once I caught her ear while grooming and she yelped, so I think I would know if I really hurt her. I am not advocating physical abuse, but I do feel a smack at the right moment can work wonders. With a large breed such as mine, I have learnt that I must be firm and Saffy was very dominant from a very early age. However, as long as you are not being unkind then each to his own.

Fiona and Saffy

Linsay, I thought you might remember, but I did find that the odd smack worked very well. Saffy was just a bit pushy I feel, (can still be at times), but now realises she can't get away with it.

Hi Emma

I think he is trying it on with you - sort of I'm tougher than you mum .......... try me, so you have to ensure that he knows now that you are the leader of the pack. I only have a small breed (Cavaliers) but for many years wrote breed features for PetDogs. I once produced an article about Bernese Mountain Dogs and in doing spoke to the then secretary of the breed club. She gave me lots of help but the one thing I never forgot was that she (and the breed club) considered that temperment was the major behavioural pointer ............ this must be right whatever the breed but she said bear in mind if you have a tiny dog which attempts to 'be boss' you can put your toe under it's bum and move it ........ with a large breed ........ no chance and she had the scars to prove it. I would urge you to know now what the temperament of your boy is ....... Boxers are sometimes just plain silly teenagers but rarely agressive, have you spoken to his breeders for advice.

Alice