I previously owned an SBT that passed ealier this year & after being burgled am now researching for a more instinctively protective breed of dog but as a pet. I have narrowed it down to 4 breeds of dog for different reasons & characteristics, they are the ISBT, American Staff, Dobermann & Rottweiler.I am a very athletic Personal Trainer with a fair sized garden I do understand & am prepared for the need to train & socialise these breeds of dog from a young age as it is bad owners or breeders that cause dogs to become dangerous. After having read the DDA I am still unclear as to whether the ISBT & Amstaff are banned in the UK? It states that "any dog which appears to be a dog to which section 1 applies" (the APBT,Tosa,Doga & Fila). I understand that an Amstaff & ISBT can be seen to be similar in appearence to the APBT, even though they have been bred through different lines for different reasons for many years from the APBT & have very different temperaments to it. If the Amstaff & ISBT are not banned are they recognised by the UKC & are there particular papers I would need to keep one here? I'm also looking for reputable UK breeders of these dogs & am attending the Discover Dogs at Earls Court next month in hope of finding some, to help me decide which breed of dog I would be best suited. If anyone has any info that may help enlighten me on any of these subjects please either reply to me at ram185@hotmail.com or here after this post. Thanx in advance Ray (p.s I am registered but cannot currently enable my cookies)

Hi Ray
I'm afaid I'm not up to date on the DDA, my breed is retreivers, but they can easily lick you to death:D I hope you get some answers to your question, and who knows, we might bump into each other at Discover Dogs, next month:)

Good luck

liberty;)

Hi,
The ISBT and Amstaff are indeed banned in the UK.

hi the irish staffordshire is not banned over in the uk.I know of a peticular good breeder.They are just not eligible for kc reg they are s.i.b.t.c.or i.c.k.c reg
but they are perfectly nice dogs larger than the average staff but temperament is still the same.

The are not band except if someone decides they are of the 'type' and as in the past poor bred Staffies have been picked up as being Pitbull or Pitbull type there is a risk that the ISBT may be thought to be of Pitbull type too. Think a lot depends on where you live and your type of life style, I know it should not be but if people think you may wish to own a dog of the pitbull type you may be accused of doing so.

Edit: If it is to keep people off your property you may be better with one or two of the larger hairy terriers, Airedale, Irish or Welsh as they will raise the alarm and may be stop the entry in the first place.

Whilst you are at Discover Dogs come and say hello to myself and the Spanish Water Dogs.

I'm not going to dwell on whether or not Am Staffs or ISBTs are banned or not as this has already been dealt with (Am staffs are banned, ISBTs are not). If you are essentially looking for a new pet who will also act as a guard dog (are instinctively protective of owner and property) or a deterrent for potential theives, then personally I would go for one of any number of the so-called "guarding breeds". Out of the four breeds that you listed and taking into account your active lifestyle as a trainer, I would suggest the dobermann although the rottweiler is also an excellent pet and guard. Have you considered other breeds such as the german shepherd and bullmastiff?

[deleted]

Whatever breed you eventually opt for , should he bite someone, whether protecting or not your dog could still be held as a dangerous dog :(

I would never use a dog as a guard. My three are natural protectors of the home, so i keep them very secure. I keep them indoors when the postie is due, put extensions on the fences and gates to stop people from invading their space with their arms while trying to pet them, keep the gates locked and bolted at all times. They are just a few precautions i take to keep my dogs out of harms way.
If someone was to break into my house, the dogs are locked away in the front and back porches at night and when i go out, the dogs would not be able to attack. A burgler can sue for damages if he/she is bitten by a dog in the particular house they are targeting, the animal ordered to be destroyed in some cases. Its not worth it. I wouldn't choose a breed for its guarding qualities but for its companionship. You could still get burgled and loose your dog again regardless.

They most certainly are a guarding breed, which is one of the reasons they are/were so useful for herding. They can herd *and* guard the flock from predators.

They are fabulous protection dogs because they have the intelligence to know when they need to be protective and when not to act.

Stacey

I think a GSD might be my next breed in a good few years time. I have to admit I have met some stunning dogs recently...all of which totally devoted to their families, and would certainly pass for a guarding breed :D

I must say though that for an "all mouth and no trousers" dog, you can't beat a dane in full voice. Willis strikes the fear of god in any visitors we have, and Phoebe is not afraid to show her displeasure at anyone coming up the drive

[deleted]

Moonmaiden,

Forget the Kennel Club classification for a moment. GSDs were originally used and the breed developed to take care of all of the requirements that a farmer had with livestock. They were used to herd the flock *and* guard the flock from predators. They rounded up the sheep .. and they protected them as well. It is their intelligence and natural protective instinct that makes them so suitable for guard and protection work by the military and police forces around the world. Not to mention their usefulness in tracking which is well applied for search & rescue and drug detection.

To say that GSDs are not capable guard dogs is selling them short. Many breeds of herding dogs, not just the GSD, do far more than herd.

Stacey

[deleted]

Moonmaiden, can I ask why you are always so agressive in your posts? It certainly puts a lot of people off.

Helen

[deleted]

Moonmaiden,

According to what you have said so far, GSDs should only be used for moving sheep around from one place to another. (Herding style supposedly being one of other factors why white GSDs were not considerable desirable, easier to see them if they were a different colour than the sheep. As contrasted to dogs that were primarily or only used as guardians, many of whom are white.) You discount that when GSDs were originally used for herding the world was a rougher place and the flock was in danger from predators - human and animal - and the GSD was a *versatile* herding dog because it could herd as well as protect. And apparently none of you GSDs have been good guard dogs, which is the same as saying none of them have a protective instinct.

I have no experience in herding. Never owned a herd of anything. I did know GSDs owners who trained and competed in herding trails, but as a competitive sport. No bonding required, just a gentle introduction to sheep when first beginning training so they are comfortable around them.

I do not know why the idea of GSDs being useful guard dogs is so upsetting to you. They have been used for guarding by the military and protection agencies around the world for many decades for guarding property and people. This is a fact. It does not make them viscious or likely to attack without provocation, if that is what you are equating with "guarding."

"& not the"guarding"lines you so admire." Huh? I admire the GSD for its intelligence, its structure, the way it moves, its appearance, and its versatility - herding, guide dog, obedience, search and rescue, guarding and protection, and companionship.

Stacey

[deleted]

Moonmaiden,

Clearly you are the world's expert on GSDs. German shepherd friends using GSDs and you even knew Von Stephanitz personally.

I agree re attack dogs that are used to patrol solo. These dogs are usually of very dubious temperament, regardless of the breed. Years ago one of my friends sold one of her GSD puppies to someone that sounded like he would provide a good home. She had been breeding GSDs for 30 years and was pretty good at spotting unsuitable owners. Anyway, this guy came to visit with wife and kids in tow. He wanted a young male adult, not a pup. Eventually he picked up a dog which I think was about 9 months old. Through the grapevine my friend learned that this guy's family act was a sham. In fact, he ran a "guard dog" business.

She called him and said she wanted her dog back, but he refused. She found out where his business was located and went to find him. What she discovered was horrifying. He had a basement with several young dogs, including her GSD. They were all tied up on short chains. They all had wounds to their ears. He had obviously been torturing these dogs somehow to turn them into people haters and "attack dogs." I suppose the guy was afraid of what she would do, so he did give her the dog back. Her youngster was never the same again, unfortunately. She told the police and animal authorities about what she saw - they did nothing because they couldn't prove anything.

However, I have seen many GSDs used as guard dogs for private security firms in the U.S. Whether or not they used the "training" method above I do not know. Whether or not they would bite as well as bark, I do not know. A GSD behind a fenced enclosure who decides to bark is enough of a deterant for most sane people. I used to think one of my GSDs would bite if a burglar entered my home. Was having my house painted, needed to go to work, advised the painter on no conditions to let himself into the house - he would be bitten. He did not listen. Using his ladders, he climbed into my outside dog run, which was next to the house. He said my GSD barked, approached him - and even held his arm in her mouth. But he said, "I know dogs, I knew she would not bite" .. and she did not. And then let himself into my house and finished up his painting. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt this GSD would have attacked someone who was a direct threat to me. In this case, perhaps it was because she had seen this painter in the house before, or because there was no direct threat, her only response was a darn good warning. I was actually somewhat disappointed. :-) However, it is exactly what I mean when I say they have that GSDs have a protective instinct, but the intelligence to know when to attack.

Stacey

Stacey

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Oh for Heavens sake ...will you two just stop already? The thread will end up getting locked if this carries on degenerating into a personal battle of wills between you!

:rolleyes:

Melody

Okay Melody! :-)

No one is fighting. The most experienced people in a breed are often stubborn and authoritative. It comes out of passion and love of a breed. Moonmaiden is entitled. It's people like her that are the best teachers. It does not mean they are always right, but they are right most of the time.

Sorry if I have offended or upset anyone else.

Moonmaiden and Stacey, take it to email. Moonmaiden, that is abuse of the delete option and has now ruined this thread. It will be removed in due course.

General Note to All Members:

Abuse of the delete option can result in your posting rights being removed.

And lets not forget "sarcastic".

Chloe,

It's only words on a computer screen, after all. :-)

Stacey

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I logged on to CDogs a while ago 'cos I was hoping for help finding a companion for my dog,thought it would be nice to chat with other owners, swap info etc. Since that time I've barely posted for fear of upsetting or offending a poster, as there are those on the board(by no means all) who seem to engage constantly in one upmanship -"I know more about this/got x number of years experience than you"- so what? I know we all love our dogs, but it's a shame they cause so much aggression amongst their owners! It's a bit like kids, we all KNOW what's best for our OWN but (a) we won't always be right (b) it won't work for everybody and (c) experience is not always the best judge, the best we can hope for is to graciously accept the opinion of others & not to respond in an offensive or sarcastic manner, if we give up on learning then we're lost. Ahh, step down, soap box in cupboard!!

Well said. Personally, I can't stand one-upmanship, and when posts are laden with sarcasm and know-it-all comments are involved then it just makes me skip people's posts and ignore them, which somewhat defeats their desire to be heard :)

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just an observation :)

[deleted]

Saucer of milk - table for two? ;)

[deleted]

MM - I'd rather talk to someone with experience, over paper-based knowledge any day. I've had my own non-too-pleasant experience with a couple of behaviourists recently, and frankly, its not something I'd do again! :)

I think most of us with (sometimes years of) experience in particular breeds are happy to share our practical knowledge of that breed. However most dogs, of all breeds, are the same species, and a lot (but not all!) of what applies to one will apply to all.

Never forgetting that dogs, like people, are individuals, with their own particular quirks. No two (even of the same breed) are alike - that's why we love 'em!
:)

There are definitely certain topics that seem to garner know-it-all and worse type posts.

I agree that experience is not everything. There are many people who have had dogs for years and have been lousy, irresponsible dog owners who never took the time to learn about dogs or their breed. And/or, they never opened themselves up to learning other approaches or developing well rounded opinions. Learning by reading books - because none of us will live long enough or own enough dogs to know even a fraction of what we could about dogs -- is a great way to supplement personal experience.

For myself, one of the pleasures of showing dogs (used to, do not any more) was being able to ask zillions of questions to people who had been in a particular breed for decades. The differences in experience and opinion made it more interesting, but eventually you learn to listen to those people you trust who own dogs that you admire.

On this board, it does not matter to me that someone has a completely opposite opinion to me. I really do not care much for how they state it, as long as it is civil. I have learned a lot even from those people I disagree.

Stacey

Hi Ray

As I said last time you posted (when you where trying to decide between Dobermann and Rottweiller) it depends on what it is you want to guard (plus obviously from whom and why). There are lots of regulations regarding "guard" dogs so are you looking for a pet who will bark when anyone comes or a "guard" dog.

Dobermanns were originally designed as personal protection dogs - the only breed that this applies to - so if it is for protecting against burgulars may not be the breed for you.

Try deleting all your cookies (Tools, Internet Options, Delete All Cookies) and trying again as this may help.

Christine

dont know about the AMSTAFF but the ISBT isnt recognised by the KC, they are still pretty rare and IMO would have difficulty ever being recongised as they slip into a lot of the "grey" areas where breeds are concerned. There are no requirements for registration, muzzling etc.

dont know about the instinctive protection though to be honest, I have an ISBT which is about 14 months old and the only way i could ever see her causing a threat to an intruder is if they have a serious allergy to dog saliva and come out in a rash where she has licked them lol.

Saying that, from an outsiders point of view, they do have a slightly aggressive appearance which could help prevent further intruders (it certainly keeps the kids away from my door)

Hi everyone & thanx for your input on this subject, after much hair pulling i've finally enabled my cookies. (Thanx Christine for pointing me in the right direction)
To clarify any misconceptions i am looking for a PET not a GUARD DOG as i understand the problems & implications of owning a guard dog. By natural protective instinct i mean a dog that will firstly deter invasion of my property & this could simply be by the prescence (sheer size & bark) of the dog, but also i have to be honest & state that in the rare event i am not in (as i work 12-15hrs a week) i would want my pet to protect my home if it was invaded.
After having learnt Amstaffs are indeed banned in the UK I am now whittled down to 3 breeds for various characteristics among other reasons which are the ISBT, Dobermann & Rottweiler. (I am still open to suggestions of other breeds i maybe better suited to).
I am looking for a loyal, loving, protective breed with character that is highly energetic & athletic for a good jogging companion, medium-large breed, I am willing to groom but am not looking for a long-haired breed.I'm single have a fair sized garden(70x30m) and high fences. As previously stated i do understand the need for training & socialising (both humans & dogs) with protective breeds & to be a firm(not harsh) leader.
The reason for an ISBT is simply that they seem to have the same temperament & characteristics of an SBT but be larger & that little bit more athletic. The reasons for being unsure between the Dobermann & Rottweiler is the Dobe sems to have all the qualities I am looking for but are still very much bred to be a working dog and because of this (im led to believe)they have less character & personality & the the rottie although also from a working background seems today to be bred to be more of a family pet & this is why they have more character although being slightly less athletic.(please correct me if i'm wrong). Any input or advice welcome. (Sorry for the length of this post & placing it in different places if you've happened to read it twice but im new to this & will get the hang of this yet! LOL) Ray.

Dobes, lacking in character, hummm - I think not :D Just try reading some of the Dobermann related threads on this board. :D :D

I can only talk about Dobes as they are my breed and most of them these days are bred purely as pets - their sporting side is only just starting to become fashionable again in this country over the last few years. You will probably find that once you have a dog again you will be more worried about coming home and finding that an intruder has injured your dog than damaged your belongings

If you have any specific Dobe related questions you are welcome to contact me (click on my name above) and I may be able to answer :)

Christine

Sorry if i've got it wrong as i've never personally owned a Dobe or Rottie, I do frequent other dogboards & websites & have also visited yours for info, but this is the feedback im getting from owners of both breeds, dog behaviourists & obedience trainers. I know both breeds can be strong willed & need a firm alpha leader,it's also been said that " the dobe's of late seem to be a bit flighty & seem to be bred with nervous & fear aggresion" & this is why im in limbo land when deciding which breed i would be best suited, im just trying to become better informed by those of you in the know so i can make the best decision possible, none of my questions are breed specific as i have researched all 3 & understand the health problems (HD,VWD, eye & heart problems etc) & importance of family background checks for temperament among other things. But after all of this i still can't seem to find one of these breeds that maybe better suited towards my lifestyle than the other two, so if you do have any particular info or just any opinions on whether or not i would be suited to a Dobe or the other 2 breeds (ISBT & Rottie) please reply. Thanx in advance RAY.

Hi Ray, Just a quick thought-a friend of mine had roughly the same needs as you , researched the Dobe, Rottie and GSD, but ended up with a Giant Schnauzer. He seems to be a nice mix of friendliness, and energy, but with natural Guarding ability (I don't mean that he is an actual 'guard dog!). The breed seems a very versatile one, being fully able to do loads of physical stuff as well as being able to switch off when at home, and his wiry coat doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide on-keep us all informed of your decision!

Ali :)

Wouldnt an Airedale be a suitable choice... seems to have all the things you are looking for?

Just had a gander at both the Airedale Terrier & Giant Schnauzer (hope i got the spelling right) but while both being lovely breeds i dont mind the occasional groomimg but am not looking for a long-haired or wire-haired breed but have not discounted these breeds as they both seem very athletic & may deserve a closer look at discover dogs. any other opinions welcomed please keep them coming. Ray.

As you've used the word 'gander', house geese make very good guard 'dogs' - seriously!

Hi ray - seems you're still struggling to find a breed that is right for you. I hope you don't mind me asking but have you actually been out to visit any dobe or rottie breeders and their dogs yet? All the people on this board are only able to give you so much information and suggestions but I think the best way to find what is right for you is to actually experience them first hand yourself. I had narrowed my choice down to several breeds and tried to see as many examples of them as possible before making my choice. I have owned rotties and think they are a fantastic breed but reading through your criteria I think a dobe would be a good choice for you especially if you want an energetic large dog. Others that spring to mind are the rhodesian ridgeback and the cane corso (the second breed being very rare in this country).
Best of luck in your search!

Thanks Dogueboy, Ive not actually done the footwork yet as the only up & coming show I know is Discover Dogs which i will be attending but i was just interested in other owners, breeders, & trainers opinions if the 3 breeds i had whittled it down to were infact as compatible with my lifestyle as i think. I was also trying to find out if there were any aspects to these breeds i may have overlooked which i don't think i have,& also if they are allowed to keep here in the UK (ISBT in mind). I am doubtful that i will find any ISBT breeders at the show though & through past threads was hoping Mr Murphy might drop in & help enlighten me as he seems to be very knowledgeble on the breed. I am going to the show very open minded as i want to find the most suitable dog for me so we can both enjoy each others companionship & alike qualities (lol's). If anyone does know of any other shows where there maybe any ISBT's & breeders please contact me privately or if you have any other food for thought or advice please continue to reply. Thanx

Can i just ask why you say ISBTs are rare because they are always for sale in our local papers and the exchange and mart?

Irish Staffords are by no means rare - its just that you will be unlikely to meet any breeders at shows as they cannot be regitered by the UK KC and therefore cannot be shown at a KC show . They are registered with the Irish KC
Hope that helps
Lesley

Hi corso girl & lesley, I never intended for this thread to become a battleground as some members seem to have found fit to turn it into & i have never stated that ISBT's are rear? I would rather not use local papers like the Exchange & Mart as I would rather use a reccomended, reputable & recognised breeder with any breed but especially with a breed like the ISBT that seems to be liable to ignorance from the public & have the possibility of being judged "of Pitbull type", as i would like a good example of the breed (temperament,etc). So if anyone does no of any please contact me privately as i would like to meet some good examples of the breed before I decided if this breed was for me. p.s even as they are not recognised by the UKC do they not have any seperate shows where i could meet breeders in the UK?

Hi Ray
I think Corso girl and I were replying to Andy s 80 who mentioned the Irish being rare . They are advertised quite often in my local paper but since there is no KC registration I wouldnt be too sure abou health checks and breeding etc
Would you not opt for another staffy ?