In a couple in a recent posts visitors have posted messages in which they are searching for a designer cross breed, namely a Labradoodle and a Toy Munchkin, we also have someone currently searching for a lurcher.

This topic has previously been discussed on the board here and opinion is obviously divided as to the rights and wrongs of deliberate cross breeding.

But does anyone have any new thoughts on the subject ?

Well it looks as if I'm the first to add my thoughts to this.

My father spent over 30yrs working with the RSPCA so I'm well aware of the large numbers of dogs in rescue homes. I'm also well aware that people will do what they want to regardless of the opinions of others. As anyone with teenage children will know the more you tell someone not to do it, the more they will. Surely it is better to offer facts and information about why cross-breeding is inadvisable rather than being short and snappy with those who ask our advice.

I am in the process of buying a rare breed that has only been in this country for 14yrs, the Kennel Club have yet to establish a full breed standard, yet no-one criticised my decision to buy a Toller. I wonder how long it will be before the Kennel Club officially accepts Labradoodles and the like.

Personally I think that as long as someone has thought properly about the dog they wish to buy and they are able to offer it a good home, it doesn't matter what the breed is - cross-breed, pedigree or a so called 'designer-dog'. All that really matters is the welfare of that particular animal.

If people keep being rude and off-hand about cross-breeds the owners will never return for advice on future issues and it will be the dog that suffers. What is it they say - 'If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.'

Fiona

I agree, if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. I always try to advise as pleasantly as possible, and hope I may have helped an owner solve a problem before the "problem" makes a dog a rescue or rehoming case. Life is too short for arguments, agree to disagree instead.

Thumper said that in the Disney film 'Bambi' Polly (my fav of the Disney Films).
Personally I see nothing wrong with it either, I know we have many many breeds of dogs available but surely as long as these crosses are being properly bred then that is no worse then any of the pedigrees.
It's no worse then the rest of us liking the look & traits of our chosen breeds.
Ingrid

Crosses happen and I have no problem with anyone having one but thinking back, I was the one who started the last argument on this issue by calling them mongrels and saying that I could see no justification for breeding designer dogs. Just because someone has mated two different breeds that is no reason for charging inflated prices for something which the purchaser will have no reason to know which half of the pedigree the puppy will take after. As most of you know, Labradors are my breed and I get so annoyed at how some people use this breed. It’s ok to say that using this breed to gain “That lovely temperament” but what happens if that temperament is not carried through? How long before the Labrador gets a bad name? On second thoughts, just maybe that wouldn’t be such a bad thing. It might have the effect of stopping this abuse and leaving Labradors to people who appreciate this wonderful breed.

That’s my thoughts on the subject!
Regards, John

I believe that crossing different breeds should only be done by those with some genetic knowledge, they should be aware of all the hereditary problems in the breeds to be crossed, they should take care in making sure that the dogs they are crossing are extremely healthy physically as well as having excellent temperments. If the are in fact trying to create a new breed then ,to me, it's not cross breeding. Instead the process of creating this new breed should take time. Time enough to get relaible results, just like people have done in the past to create the breeds that each one of us love so dearly. This process takes devotion, time, and money. I personally find it fascinating. And yes maybe someone out there could love a GSD with a bald bum that winks at you during dinner, but that person is not me. Nor would I ever desire some of the official breeds out there. Everyone is different and respecting those differences is the key to open communication, the kind I love to see on this board everyday.

There are as a matter of fact people with decades of breeding experience, who also happens to be genetists by profession that do cross dogs and create new breeds.
It is fascinating. And it takes a couple of decades.

when an experienced geneticist has spent many years developing a wonderful new breed ( on the verge of seeking AKC status) and there are fanciers of this BREED (which like all other breeds came from human manipulation of existing breed gene pools), then no editing out of info about it can remove it from reality. The Silken windhound is such a breed, developed over many generations by Francie Stull of Texas. They do not exist for profit--at least not the monetary kind. Silkens are becoming loved family pets, companions, and therapy dogs all over the world. To ignore their existence speaks of----hmmm, I'm not sure what.
MJ Moss Afghan Hound owner(over 26 yrs) and a future Windhound owner.

There is also another angle to this. The bracco is an ancient breed,but it came very close to dying out a few years back. To save it there was no choice but to add blood from another similar breed. If this hadn't of happen then the bracco would be no more. Having been around since the 4th Century BC this would have been a great shame, to say the least.

I've absolutely no objection to a cross being used to strengthen a gene pool of an established breed in this manner Leigh, in fact a similar thing happened in Flatcoats after the war when their numbers had shrunk to just 14 registered dogs! Without this both the Bracco and the Flatcoat would no longer be with us but this was done by people with knowledge and with the good of the breed in mind. Rather different to feeding a person's desire to just have something different or to sell something which they cannot deliver like a non shedding Labrador.

Regards John :)

:-)

And, of course, John, you can still see a little of the Labrador influence today in some Flatcoats. People will always criticise, but not too many people criticised Bruce Cattenach, who knew more about what he was doing than most of us, when he crossed a natural bob-tail corgi with a boxer to obtain a natural bobtail in a boxer. This, of course, after the banning of docking in some Nordic countries.

Luckily, he would have been very aware of any recessive undesirables that might have lurked there. And I very much doubt he made much money out of it .

This is where it all comes down to money again. Most of the sites offering these cross-breds (Schnoodles, Munchkins etc) are commercial, and on that basis alone, I would have no interest in promoting these.

Lurchers are maybe different - here I could be shot down, I suppose. The greyhound basis for these is generally very sound genetically, I believe, and has been proven so by selection over centuries. They have been crossed primarily for work, and again, most bred with the experience of generations. Therefore I don't have a problem with the restricted breeding of these per se, as they should be each tailor-made for a specific purpose and specific territory.
I do , however, have a major problem with the cast-off lurchers, as I do with cast-off greyhounds.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I agree with all you've said 100% Jo. And of course the Flatcoat people use the derogatore, "It's got a Labradorish head" in just the same way as us Lab people say, "It's got a Flatcoatish head!" no pleasing some is there! :p Again, Lurchers have been around for so many years and are bred for a purpose, unlike the Lab crosses people are trying to pass off as "Breeds"

Best Wishes, John

When you think about the amount of Labs, GSDs & Greyhounds in rescue I personally think some of these are being over bred anyway, I read on another board of a breeder who has 6 Doberman bitches all in pup, that could amount to an awful lot of dogs.
And where will it all end, ok so boxers were sucessfully bred without tails, and allowed to be shown, if a ban on docking comes in how many other breeds will be treated in the same way to enable people to have tail-less dogs.
When you look back at pictures of dogs as they used to be, they have changed so much many are unrecognisable and not always for the better.

Again Ingrid, I have to agree with you as well, it seems quite common in the BRS to see three, four or even up to six litters of Labradors being registered at the same time. Maybe someone could give me a good reason for these numbers. I know there is a huge market but to me anyway, this seems excessive! dog rescues are full of the surplus as Mattie and Cathlin can say. As for the changes over the years, Labradors of the 30's and 40's have nothing in common with some of todays!

Regards, John

Actually, John, looking back over the photos of our labs in the 60s, their heads could be mistaken for yellow flatcoats. Good job we didn't show them.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi everyone, I basically have Wolfhounds and Lurchers, so a similar but totally different type! Similar in temprement ,coat and structure, but not in health, and longevity.
I have had Wolfhounds for over 20 years now, love them to bits and would never be without one, but the problems that go with them can be horrendous. If you get a IW to nine years of age, you have done well. They are not mature till they are three, and are classed as Veterans at six. So if you are fortunate, you have three years with this wonderful breed, when they are in their prime. They are plagued with heart problems and various cancers, are suseptible to gastric torsion, and recent have fallen foul of Liver Shunt, so they are not a breed for the faint hearted. The tears I have shed over these gentle giants could fill a river, and yet its not possible for me to not have a couple of them at home. Now we have the rough haired lurchers, a beardie x greyhound, and a deerhound x greyhound. Robust, sturdy, healthy, and yet these really are only crossbreeds, the name they carry does not alter the fact. It is my intention to breed lurchers that look like a smaller version of the IW. So many people who have spoken to me have said they love the IW and dearly wish to own one, but they cant live with their short life span, and their health problems. These lurchers will be bred with as much care, and consideration as my IWs have been over the years. Their new owners will have to fulfill my stipulations just as well as the IW owners have had to do. in the past. I shall still work on the principle that I will take back any dog that I have bred, and will always be available for the owners should they have any problems or queries. So the careless breeding of crossbreeds will always continue, a quick buck for a pet owner, an accidental mating, but some of us will still take the breeding of "mutts" seriously, and fulfill our obligations to the mother , the pups and the new owners.

Hi Philippa,

Like you I know people who love IWs but can't bear the thought losing one after only a few years, and I also know people who would like a longdog or lurcher, but are put off by the cowboys who make up 'pedigrees', and don't rear the pups well. So I'm sure that you will be successful with your responsibly bred small IW look alikes. I might even want one myself at sometime :-). I know how I'd go about breeding small 'deerhounds', but I've never thought about how to get a small IW type lurcher, and I'd be fascinated to know what crosses you plan to produce them.

I can't imagine life without one or two wolfies either, but am depressed by the average longevity although - with fingers crossed - mine have done well. I'm probably going to get into trouble here (especially since you know far more about IWs than I do :-) ), but my impression is that some lines of wolfhounds (and deerhounds) have a longer average lifespan than others. Sticking my neck out further, I suspect that the long lived hounds are bred by people who scour pedigrees for long lived ancestors, make a concerted effort to breed away from osteosarcoma, bloat and especially cardiomyopathy, and aim for tall, but lean and athletic 'greyhoundy' dogs - even if that means losing out in the show ring ......

Sharon

Hi sharon, How great to meet another IW fan!! What a dog eh?
I believe that longevity in Wolfhounds dosnt so much run in lines and families, as runs in size. I cant talk for other IW owners, but my own experience has been that the smaller ones last longer than the taller ones, not on a weight factor. However, I think that to let an IW get overweight is asking for trouble!! Same as humans I suppose. The "best" one of mine ever achieved was just over 11 years, but she was only just the breed minimum height. I have tried to concentrate my breeding on temprement and longevity, more than beauty for the show ring, although we have shown with some success( more luck than judgement) I have fortunately never had any temprement problems at all, all rock solid, love kids, other dogs etc, but health and longevity, well, not quite so good. I have lost them at 11 weeks, 18 weeks, 4 years, and then up to 11 years. Admittedly the two youngest were born with problems. but that still counts as a loss in my book.
As for my "small wolfhound" lurchers. We spent months tracking down a bitch to use as our foundation bitch, no disrespect meant to lurcher people, but we found that whatever we asked for , that was what their litter was!! I think if I had asked for a Labradoodle croos, that is what their little would have been!! Not easy as Lurchers dont come with proper pedigrees. However, we did eventually find a lurcher breeder who kept proper records os his litters, and Millies ears are tatooed with the initials of her mum and dad. She is a greyhound x beardie. However, not a show beardie, but a working beardie, a very different dog.
We are planning to mate her to another working beardie, to get more bone and substance than the greyhound, and then hopefully that offspring back to a whippet, or whippet cross to conform the size. No plans past that stage at the moment. The working beardie has not got a coat like a show beardie, dont want a mini Wolfhound with a long flowing coat thank you. I initially thought of a Spinone cross, but I bet the pups would pick up the Spinone ears !!!!!!!!! Its also very difficult to get pedigree dog owners to allow you to use their dogs. I can understand this, as not everyone is agreeable to breeding crossbreeds. Thanks for the interest. we must keep in touch, and I will let you know how the pups come along.

Hi Philippa,

Deerhounds are my main breed but wolfhounds are my first love :-) I come after two generations of women who would have exchanged the kids for a perfect greyhound, and would probably be the same if I hadn't seen the Irish Guards mascot aged about 5. That was love at first sight, but by the time I was in the position to have a wolfhound, the breed was going through the phase (which I'm sure you remember), when puppy prices had shot up and there were a lot of new people breeding. I reckoned that the last thing IWs needed at the time was another tyro, so I got my wolfhound, and have had one or two ever since, but decided to breed deerhounds instead. I've always been more interested in working the deerhounds than showing them, and of late have been toying with showing IWs.

Fingers crossed, touch wood etc, I've been incredibly lucky with longevity and health in both breeds. So far I've only lost four under 10 - a 4 yr old wolfhound with a brain tumour, a 3 year old deerhound in a stupid, stupid accident, a 9 year old deerhound of cardiomyopathy and last month a 6 year old deerhound with a gastro-intestinal lymphoma.

At the moment my IWs are Megan, an 11 yr old, and Lewis aged 7 months, who just arrived last weekend. I'm very afraid that my good luck may be about to run out with Lewis, as my vet thinks he may have wobblers syndrome.

You have far more experience than I do with IWs, but in deerhounds my feeling is that the heavier dogs perhaps do tend to have shorter lifespans, height is a minor factor, or maybe even irrelevant. But longevity in UK deerhounds is total guesswork, because there aren't any studies, even along the lines of Betty Murphy's Wolfhound Longevity Report.

I know all about the 'Question: "what is the breeding of your lurcher pups?" Answer: "what would you like it to be?" syndrome :D. Did you get Millie from David Hancock? He's the only person I know of using working beardies to breed lurchers. I'm sure that you will get something very nice with your planned crosses, but if you don't use a wolfhound - or a deerhound ;) - won't you lose the wonderful character and expression of the big celtic hounds? Its a fascinating project, and - hint, hint - I'd love to see the litters as the breeding program progesses. I also know about the reluctance of pedigree people to let their dogs to be used in crosses, and the reaction to those who do, but more on that subject would have to go in a private e-mail. I hope that you are not going to stop breeding IWs altogether. I saw your Evening Star last year (East of England?), and she's my sort of lady!

All the best, Sharon

Hi sharon, Im so sorry to hear about Lewis, although Wolfhounds have many ailments, that is a really unusual one for this breed. May I ask, (confidentially) where you got him from? You can e mail me at sighthounds @ hotmail.com or phone me on 01702 545342
You really have been lucky with the age of your Wolfhounds, well done you. Obviously loads of love and attention helped :)
I too have a Deerhound, but you wouldnt think he was a Deerhound to look at him. He is slightly taller than my male Wolfhound. Has a coat like an Old English Sheepdog, almost a fleece. and bone not far short of a St Bernard. Very nicely bred, but we did know he was soft coated when we bought him.
Yes, Millie came from David Hancock, and it is our intention, hopefully later in the year, to travel up to Scotland to visit Brian Plummer and buy a working beardie male from him, but its such a long way from Essex! lol
Just a bit of interest for you. Brian Plummer charges £150 for a working beardie pup. There is a man who lives on my doorstep, really only 10 mins drive from here, who has two of Brians working beardie males. I approached him about using one at stud, and he was quite agreeable. When I asked the stud fee, he was asking£700!!! I dont think so lol
I will keep my fingers crossed and hope that Lewis has something different from that diagnosed by the vet. Please let me know how you get on, give me a ring and we can chat IW Lurchers and Deerhounds :)
Thank you for the nice comment about Star, I bred her mother, grandmother and great grandmother. She was bred by my best friend, and I had no intention of showing her. When she was born, I had to work really hard to get her going, and so when it came to choosing a puppy, I picked her. She really was the ugly duckling, turned into the swan. We have just mated her, but sadly she has missed:( Oh well, we will try again next time. Please let me know how Lewis gets on.

Hi John & Leigh,

Anastasia Noble bred a black greyhound into the Ardkinglas deerhound line in order to widen the gene pool when out-bred dogs could be KC registered after four generations of breeding back to KC registered dogs. I only wish that it was still possible (and that there were Miss Noble's around, with the knowledge and self-confidence to do it!)

Like everyone else, what I don't like is the commerical aspect. I just can't bring myself to believe that people are breeding dogs called schnoodles with a serious intention of creating a breed with a purpose other than making money. But maybe that's too harsh? In any case its no reason to be hard on people who are looking for a munchkin or a labradoodle. Which isn't to say that the potential problems can't be pointed out, and they shouldn't be gently guided in another direction :-)

Best wishes, Sharon

Hi Sharon,

>> In any case its no reason to be hard on people who are looking for a munchkin or a labradoodle.

If you read my posts you will see that I don't have an opinion on people looking for ladradoodles or any other breed come to that :-) I provide the links and any contact numbers that I have and then it is up to them. As I have already said, the bracco was saved from extinction a few years ago by the introduction of amongst other things, GSP blood. If the Italian breeders hadn't of done this then I would not have my lovely lad now ;-)

Leigh

Hi Leigh, I didn't mean to suggest that. The problem is my disorganised mind. I started to add another example of a valuable out-cross, without which my hairy horrors would be different, and quite possibly less healthy. Then I remembered comments in one of the threads admin linked, and wandered on with a complete non sequitor. Sorry :( !

Sharon

I think if it's a dog it should be welcome because a dog is a dog when it comes to it :D . And a dog is sort like a person in this senario because if you don't like a person you don't go up to them and tell them and you don't cast out the people that like them . It's totally immoral .

This I cannot agree with. A dog is not a person!

Reading this thread the consensus seems to be that all dogs are great in their own way, pedigrees, cross breeds, lurchers etc. We are all "dog lovers" so god bless 'em all. My concern with so-called designer dogs is that they are being bred in haste to give people the latest thing, a fashion accesory if you will. It is my understanding that it takes a long time to establish a healthy breed which comes true to type. I once read that it took an inordinate length of time for the original pekinese breeders to develop that breed but that they saw this as a long process and not one to be rushed. They were willing to wait for generations of careful selection and breeding to get it right. Are these schnoodle etc. breeders rushing things ? I am probably wrong here. What do others think ?