I have two dogs, mini Daschund and yorkshire terrier. They are both male and the Yorkshire terrier is a bit of a bully to the other dog. The yorshire terrier has been neutered but the Daschund is in tact. They are both six years old and to date I have not been able to train the Terrier any manners with regard to the Daschund. Okay so the thing is this. They are fine with each other as long as there are no 'humans' around. As soon as there is a human on the horizon the Terrier gets very posessive and wont let the Daschund socialize in the same room! It's very sad and I dont know what to do. The poor Daxi just gets growled at until he "slinks" out the room looking very miserable. Sometimes they have come to full on blows with each other and there has been blood and panic. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try?
Many thanks.

Hi

Can i ask how you react in these situations? For example, do you tell any dog off, or try to make them get on, or what? :)

Lindsay

Lindsay I've tried shouting at the Terrier and then coaxing the Daxi back into the room. Then tried making a fuss of both of them but the Terrier doesn't stop growling. I've also tried speaking softly and trying to calm the Terrier whilst petting them both and still the growling. I've tried scolding the Terrier whilst petting the Daxi (probably the worst thing to do) and still the war. Don't know what to try next.

You say they are both six years old - did you bring them into the home at the same time or was one homed with you before the other?

Hi there,
Sounds as though you have a dominance issue! The problem is that you have the dominant one neutered. It should have been the other way round (I know it's a bit late now!). You have to establish your Yorkie as top dog. This means making a fuss of him first, feeding him first etc. Don't pet them both together, give your Yorkie the fuss first. Scolding your Yorkie whilst petting the Daxi is just confusing them and putting your Daxi as top dog, which is making matters worse.
Hope you get on O.K.

Sarah.

Would it help to have the Daxi neutered as well?

Kath

NOOOOOOOOoooooo.......... Neutering alters the balance between the dogs - at the moment they are too close (because the terrier has been neutered already :( ) If you get the Daxi neutered too you will be right back where you started. When you use neutering to try and address a behavioural issue like this you *should* always neuter the lower ranking dog to make the differences between them more obvious, this isnt' a choice we have now - so we have to rely on approaching it in a purely behavioural sense to try and show the dogs there are differences between them and what they can expect from you.

I know it alters the balance, but that balance is already tipped the wrong way. I know it's not ideal but I would have thought that neutering the Daxi would bring him "back down a notch" on the dominance scale and hence tipping back to more a even balance and help back up any behavioural training.

Kath.

The problems all started because they were too similar - neutering the more assertive dog may have put him below the Daxi, but if you now neuter the Daxi you end up back where you started......... Now we know there is also a bitch involved things are really changed - has she been speyed?

I repeat - has the bitch been speyed? We aren't dealing with a simple male on male situation apparently...... Was the Yorkie neutered before or after the battles started?

By shouting at the Terrier you're teaching him that having the Daxi around is bad news :( by coaxing the Daxi you're telling him there is something to fear, that you're scared too....... I think you're going to have to accept that for the time being having them both being petted at the same time isn't going to happen. Work on the obedience side of your relationship with each dog seperatly, so that you can call one for a fuss and the other stays where it is, and make sure it doesn't get any reward for trying to interupt. Your dogs look on you as a resource, and if the terrier values that resource higher than the Daxi, he's not going to want to share - you wouldn't expect them to share a bone would you? But you might expect them not to keep squabbling over it by making sure each has an opportunity to enjoy it uninterupted.......

Heck my situation sounds more dire than I originally thought!! More bad news I'm afraid in response to some questions. Horror - the Terrier was brought home first, the Daxi came about four months later but before we go any further I have to tell you that my Yorkshire Terrier bitch was actually the first home! Okay introducing new information now!! She is very placid and stays out everyone's way which is why I never mentioned her before. The males don't fight over her and dont seem to have any 'issues' at all with regards to her. Okay so she arrived, about two weeks later the male Terrier arrived and then the Daxi. They were all puppies together. The reason I neutered the male Yorkie is that he was a very cheeky pup and actually the breeder asked me to take the pup a week early because he was 'bullying' his much smaller brother, as my partner said "there were the first warning bells". Unfortunately I had already established a relationship with Tyson (male Yorkie) as I'd been visiting him at the breeder's home for some weeks before I took him home so there was no chance I was able to give him up, even now I have no regrets - my life just wouldn't be as full without him. Anyhow things were fine for ages except for his "leg humping" (hope I'm allowed to say that - how else would you put it?? :-( ). He was out of control right from when he was still at the breeder! Aside from being 'oversexed' he started his aggressive behaviour and the vet suggested we neuter him - "to calm him down". Anyhow I now know this was a mistake and would NEVER put my Daxi through that - my Yorkie cried all night and so did I!!! I just seem to have made so many mistakes - like Dominos!!! You knock one over and the whole set falls down! Please tell me there is a light at the end of the tunnel?!
Thank you all for your comments/suggestions and thoughts - please keep them coming and try hold back on the scolding for my mistakes. ;-)

Good luck!
Maybe go and see a behaviourist (your vet should be able to recomend someone). Hope you get it sorted out.

Sarah.

Wow Sarah, is it really that bad?? You seem to know your stuff so now I'm really panicking.
Lisa.

Hi Lisa,
I'm no expert on behaviour, but I do know that dogs need a structured pack with a definate leader (you) and then a doggy pack order, which seems to be your problem just now. No-one can give you detailed advice without seeing your dogs, which is why I suggested a behaviourist. The advice I gave you is just basic. You need to see a professional who can sort this problem out before it escalates any further.
Good luck,
Sarah.

Don't mistake 'looking miserable' for doggie body language which says 'OK - you feel strongly about this, I'm not going to take you on - look, I'm outta here!' - so long as he's happy and bouncy at other times I doubt there's too much 'miserable' about him. The 'miserable' posture is the dogs way of communicating - just the same as a dog lowers his ears and 'looks guilty' when his owner says 'Who did that?'...
Also, a dog fight can escalate very quickly into something very nasty - and although the Daxie isn't a terrier- they were bred for very similar jobs, and won't give up without a good argument. If you haven't had to take either of them to the vets so far, they've managed to sort out their differences very effectively in their doggie way (and I'm afraid dogs don't always 'play nicely' :( )

Thanks Digger will try keep that in mind. Just seems very sad when he tucks his tail between his legs and leaves the room. Sometimes he sits in the hallway by himself! Such a pity coz of the two he's far more loving whereas the Yorkie is like a cat - only wants attention when HE wants it. Oh boy!! Can anyone suggest a really good Canine Behaviour course. Would really like to study up on the subject - not so I can tackle this problem alone (think I need all the professional help I can get at this time) but so I dont make any more mistakes!!?
Many thanks.

Not going to suggest a course (which can cost a fortune) but a couple of books - Think Dog by John Fisher, Dog Behaviour by Ian Dunbar, and Dog Behaviour Explained by Peter Neville. If you want to go further you could also try Dogs are from Neptune by Jean Donaldson......

Hi

One other thing you could try is promoting your own position in the pack and remove the offender out of the room every time he misbehaves. You need not speak to him just put him out. It is your house, your room, your dogs and you decide who goes where not the dog.

I'd be letting him know exactly where his place is and that's lower than yours. The fact that he does not misbehave when no human is around but does when there is is enough for the human to take charge of the situation and deal with it accordingly.

I also agree with Kath Bar, if it IS a case of the Yorkie being dominant aggressive then it is because the two males are NOW too close in status and the distance between them needs widening. Therefore if the Daxi is neutered then the gap will be widened and the Yorkie should feel that the Daxi is less of a threat and not worth bothering about. If it were a case where neither dog was neutered and the Yorkie trying to get top position I personally would then castrate the Daxi if I suspected he was slightly less dominant than the Yorkie to widen the gap between them and leave the the more dominant dog (Yorkie) in the top dog position.

Ps Not suggesting that you do castrate the daxie until other options have been tried but I do agree with the theory.

Hi Dog behaviour,

Thanks for that. I'm not sure Digger understands my explanation (perhaps I didn't explain it well). Digger, if you neuter the Daxi you don't end up where you started, you end up how you need to be. That is with both dogs of equal *gender* status but with one of them being *characteristically* dominent. (i.e. how it is in nature when both dogs are un-neutered). That way you can begin to establish the pecking order by the way you relate to each dog.

Does anyone else understand me because I don't know how else to explain it?

Kath.

Hi Kath

I understand you perfectly but it is hard to explain. I was trying to put a summing up on my reply but failed miserably. You've done it spot on!

Hi Dog Behaviour and Kath, I understand where u are coming from with regard to getting my Daxi "fixed" but that really is a LAST resort. I will definitely try the suggestion you made re: taking the Yorkie out of the room. As a matter of clarification - take the Yorkie out and keep the Daxi in? Bit worried this might cause some more hassles but worth a try. Not to mention will have to bear with the Yorkies very loud howling and scratching (any suggestions how I could solve that too or will it just subside when he doesn't get his own way?). Mmmm beginning to see that the Yorkie runs the household instead of me!!! Need to shift the balance.

Thanks Digger for the books and all your assistance and also understand where u are coming from re "fixing" the daxi. There are two sides to every coin. Thanks everyone for suggestions so far!! Haha think the Yorkie is in for a shock!!! :D

Hi Paws4me

Sorry, It wasn't meant as a suggestion that you get your Daxi 'fixed' just that I agreed with the theory behind which one should have been/should be 'fixed'.

From what you said, I am not sure that this is a case of dominance. If it was, the 2 dogs would fight whether a human was present or not. It seems to be that there is jealousy involved over a human which is why I suggested the human take charge of the situation.

However, if you get the books which Digger suggested I think you will find that John Fisher refers to the dominant aggression between 2 males in detail. (he has 2 books - Think Dog and Why Does My Dog...? - can't remember if its in both or just one) I think he says that if 2 dogs are close together in character and are challenging each other for the top slot, try to identify which is slightly less dominant and 'fix' that one to widen the gap. The lower ranking both characteristically and physically should then pose no threat to the higher ranking dog. In your case, and if the problem was one of dominance, as you have 'fixed' one already and yet there is aggressive behaviour between them it would appear that the gap is too close NOW. Therefore, to widen it, the only way to go would be to lower the rank of the Daxi to again widen the gap.

But, there are other things you can do before resorting to that and I agree it is a last resort.

With regard to putting the offender out of the room - yes, just him out and do not allow him back until he is quiet. It looks like he needs to learn who sets the rules around your house and will find out its you. They are often like naughty children and treating them as such does no harm and often a lot of good.

Don't know whether you have young children but if one is deliberately spoiling the game of another, vying for your attention at the expense of a sibling or teasing, you would probably send them to their room to think about their behaviour and consequences of action - dogs aren't that different and it just could work but I'm sure there are other good suggestions.

Don't give up too soon on any course of action before trying another if the first fails.

No-One has mentioned the NILIF program, which could help enormously in establishing you as the person in charge, therefore removing the need for one of the dogs to be the boss.

The lettters stand for 'Nothing In Life Is Free'. The principles are that the dog learns that he gets nothing without doing something for you, thereby affirming that you control resources and his life.

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bite2.html explains the principles. It is a very good method for turning the power around in a relationship without getting confrontational. Be aware that initialy ther may be extinction bursts. The dog may behave worse in trying harder to get your attention, as it wojn't understand why it's normal tactics have suddenl;y stopped working, do not give in, as this will seriosly set you back. When they realise that no matter how hard they try they can't get your attention on their terms they will stop trying. that is when you can call the tune, and call them to you, ask for a behaviour (sit, down, Paw, or whatever) and then you can give them a fuss, and send them away again. Ignore any attempts to get your attention. They get it when you say.

for other readers benefit I would like to add that some of the problems you are having are classic to having two or more dogs of same age or from swame litter. there is nothing to give natural rank to any of them, so they all vie for position. That is one of the reasons it is best to wait until one is fully mature before introduc ing a puppy. The pup will almost inevitabley look up to the adult, and by the time they themselves are mature the other dog is almost unasailable in it's position, and the erstwhile pup has beenin the habit of accepting them as higher in rank.

Hi again,

Dog Behaviour and Kath - please don't apologise, nothing to be sorry for. :) I just wanted to let you know I understood what you were both trying to say. I think it's fantastic that you've both been so helpful.

Brainless, thank you for your advice, I will read up all about NILIF NOW.

I wish I'd had access to sites like these when I was thinking of getting my 'children' six years or so ago. Strange ignoramus that I am I thought that getting them all around the same age would actually be better and not worse! Oh well you live and learn. Strange how the Daxi breeder didn't forsee this as a problem - coz I did actually ask just because I'd be putting two males together. She seemed to think that Daxis were very passive and there would be no conflict. Maybe I should give her a call ;)

Anyhow just want to say thanks again to everyone and I truly value ALL the advice given.

the Daxi breeder may not have forseen a problem, as she was perhaps experienced with keeping two or more pups from a litter to see how they turn out before deciding which to keep. This often happens especialy with the smaller breeds where seperating is easier. Also it is not the Daxi per se that is the problem, but the Terriers more dominant nature. Yorkies may be a toy breed, but they are all Terrier :D

As an oridinary pet owner you may not have noticed the first signs of a problem that the breeder would have nipped in the bud. Not blaming in any way:D It is easy to forget how it was when your were new to dog ownership, and managing dogs becomes second nature, so problems of this sort rarely crop up, but not so with a first timer.

If you put NILIF in a search engine you should get lots of links, the one I gave you doesn't seem to have the info I thought it did (site must have had an update since I saved it). Good luck.

Hi paws4me,
Yes, I understand that it's a last resort and there's only you can make that decision. :) I phrased my original post as a question so as to investigate and debate the possibilities rather than to give advice. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I always think it's best to hear all opinions and suggestions and make up your own mind which ones you want to follow up.

Kath.