(Con'td from Lab cruciate ligament injury)

My decision not to give any more boosters was made on 29th October 1996 - the day I lost my six year old terrier to an adverse reaction to his annual jab. 
At about the same time a good friend of mine did a lot of research on vaccinations and as a result, also decided not to booster her dogs.  She also put all hers on the barf diet, which I didn't.  I still feed commercial brands.  At the time we thought it would be interesting to see the effects on the health of our respective dogs.

Seven years later I would say that all our dogs have remained equally healthy and happy.  The only times mine have been to the vets have been for slight tummy upsets.  Buddy, the younger one, does have patella luxation but this is a condition he was born with. 

Needless to say I have never regretted my decision not to booster.  It would be interesting to hear the views from others who have made the same choice - particularly in relation to the day to day health of their dog(s).

Hi Kath & Joyce, ok I`ll start off what I`ve noticed with my lot since not boostering but this also coincided with feeding them raw & not using any chemicals whatsoever. Joyce you`re experience will be lot more valuable cos you`ve been doing it well not doing it really longer than me.
Each of my dogs had alergies that vet put down to food, when food was changed it was put down to fleas, vet said alternate between advantage & frontline cos fleas become immune if you use just one product for long time. When this was done vet said well probably grasses, pollen etc could be anything really. That was when stronghold had just come out & they were being done with that. In the summer of 2001 all my 7 adult dogs were on steroids with 4 of them on a/b`s as well for secondary infection.When my litter of pups had the reaction to their first puppy vacc(June`02) was when I started lookng in to things & realised the itchiness in my dogs always started about 6/8wks after their boosters & the yr of 2001 they got the boosters in the June(instead of April like the previous yrs) & the itching started at the end of July. Last summer only a few dogs had itching & I managed to control it with antihistamines, this summer I got a lovely natural shampoo that I washed them all with at the begining of summer & no itching at all! The constant moulting has stopped, I`ve not had to use a worm or flea treatment them for over 2yrs & were as before one or the other was at the vet for something or other all I`ve had to do is have them this year for full blood(not titre) & fecal test. Happy to say bloods were all normal & fecal was negative. Thats more than good enough for me & makes me very happy
So that`s my comparison between before & after boosters with my lot, who`s next?

(PS moved this post from cruciate injury thread)

Christine, Spain.

Hi Joyce,
found my way here! Sorry to hear about your terrier, that must have been a big shock for you.

I thought I'd copy my bit from the previous thread for others who missed it....

I've never boostered my Springer or my previous one and neither has needed vet treatment apart from one bump on the head. Bess is now 6yo and old Bess lived to 14 very healthily. Like I say I haven't a before and after to compare so other people's stories will be interesting.

Bess has been on just commercial until recently but now she's on comm/barf mixed as I had trouble with some dog food I'd been using (Sneyd's Working Wonderdog....don't buy it!....I'll post separately about that). I think it affected her general health and although she's never been ill we were troubled with fleas. I don't like chemicals but did try a flea collar which made her neck sore so have been using natural remedies and I think she's now clear.

Kath.

Hello. In Brazil we never even heard of boosters! I was just wondering if the pet's insurance could stop payment if they found out the dog hasn't had the booster? All the insurances I had have a clause saying the dog/cat must have it in order for them to pay for treatment?
Val xxxx

Hi Val,
I don't have pet insurance so I'm not certain, but I think some (most or all?) insurance companies state that they won't cover the illnesses that could have been prevented by vaccination.

Am I right? Anyone???

Kath.

I agree with Val, I am sure most insurances have a clause stating that all vaccincations must be up to date or they won't offer cover. I am currently having this dilemma as my dog is 5 and has always had boosters. I am not convinced this is necessary anymore but am anxious about doing away with insurance. I could just put the money into an account and sit with crossed fingers.

Hi Jackyjat, :)

Yes, but won't offer cover for what ? All illnesses or just the ones prevented by vaccination?

I admit they're very ambiguous. As an example both Norwich Union and Petplan state "You must arrange for your pet to be kept vaccinated against the following. Dogs : distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis and parvovirus If you do not keep your pet vaccinated, we will not pay any claims that result from any illness it must be vaccinated against."

On the one hand they're saying you must vaccinate, on the other that those are the illnesses they won't cover if you don't ( but no mention of not covering any other illnesses)

If the won't offer any cover at all, why don't they say that?

Kath.

Edit: I put my money in an account and sit with crossed fingers. :)

When push comes to shove they will try any way possible not to pay out. My neighbour uses homeopathic remedies for her dogs rather than vaccinations and cannot get cover anywhere.

I totally agree with you there! In my post to Val I was just stating what it says in their terms and conditions. They'll dodge payment if possible, to make a profit, which is why I've never insured any of mine. :) I use homeopathic remedies for mine too(though haven't used the vacc. nosodes), so they might not have me anyway!! ;)

Kath.

From what I`ve read from others when insurance has been discussed in the past it seems your insured for everything other than the diseases covered by the vaccines ie: distemper, parvo, adno, lepto p/influenza. So if you don`t vaccinate you`d be covered for everything except those diseases. Thats what others who have inquired from their insurers have said they`ve been told.

Christine, Spain.

Thanks Christine,
That's how I've always viewed it when I've looked into insurance, but I've never actually got as far as enquiring with any companies so wasn't sure if I was right or not.

Kath.

For some there is little choice other than to vaccinate as kennels and training/agility club won't take unvaccinated dogs :(

Daisy

Hi Daisy below is the link for Chris Day, a very well know h/pathic vet, scroll down to no. 24/25 & see what he says. It might be worth considering nosodes & getting in touch with him & asking if he could tell you which kennels & agility clubs accept the nosode certifictes :)
http://www.alternativevet.org/Nosode%20protection.pdf

Christine, Spain.

Many years ago we had problems with our pomeranians soon after vaccinating them. We then started using the dead vaccines, which are used more often these days. Once we changed to this (touch wood) we've never had any problems.

I do not booster my dogs after a certain time and haven't done for a no. of years. I'm interested in the insurance bit though, has anybody had any problems regarding this?

I have today had a reminder from my vet re: boosters telling me how 'regular annual booster injections are VITAL to maintain my pet's protection against highly infectious and potentially fatal disease. As immunity provided by vaccination is not indefinite and will gradually fall, leaving my pet at risk'. I think this could be last year of boosters for my 5 yr old springer, but will probably continue for a few years with the younger cocker especially as I wish to breed from her. It makes me cross to think the vets don't give consideration to the other side of the coin.

Hi J/jat, that is an outright lie being told to you by your vet. Boosters are not vital to maintain protection at all!!
Ask him to show you proof of what he`s telling you, links to any articles that prove it or names of any scientists that have proven research & data that boosters are vital. Just ask him.

Christine, Spain

Hi there,
I haven't been on the site very often but this actually touched a nerve.
20yrs ago I had a Dobi bitch bought for me by a very special person in my life. He bought himself the brother. We were told to vaccinate, we never vaccinated any other dogs we had owned.
At the time they were using "Kavak" live vaccine. The pups reacted badly to the first injection but we still had the second jab.
When I took them for the third jab I said that "Helga" wasn't very well. The vet said this was normal.
He still gave them the jab.
2 days later Helga became ill and was in the vets for 6 days. At a cost of £287 (20yrs ago) Helga survived, with brain damage. She lived to be 5yrs old. With difficulty.
Max her brother, a much bigger puppy, succumbed after 9 days, because it took him that long to show symptoms the vet could do nothing for him and he died.
The puppies did not live in the same house until they were 12wks old.
The vets attitude, "Oh! That happens sometimes you still have Helga".
The special person in my life had died in a car acccident when the pups were 12 wks old.
Needless to say I have never used a live vaccine again and have never had boosters since.
My partner and I now have 5 dogs (Mastiff, Bullmastiff, JRT's and a X) they have had their first vacc's but not their boosters and they have never had a vaccination related problem.
Sorry to bring this up after so many years but it really got to me.
D4wn

I appreciate the link - but value my training club more than my faith in homeopathic remedies :) Although I read with interest what is said about alternatives, I am a comparative novice in these things and, at the moment, go along with the advice that I am given by my club. The trainer there has a BC that had an adverse reaction to jabs when a pup and has suffered ever since with severe, auto-immune problems, but she is still a firm believer in vaccinations and boosters. Fortunately, neither of my dogs has had any reaction so far, but I will keep reading with interest :)

Daisy

Hi Daisy, thats really sad about the BC, if a pup has had a reaction then there is every likelyhood it will continue to have them throughout it`s life. Every time it receives one it`s immune system is being damaged. It is a fact that only healthy beings be vaccinated & once immunity is achieved it is extremely long lasting, probably & in many cases for life even. Thats why boosters aren`t necessary, they can`t give any more immunity than the animal already has, only if there is no immunity present will they have any effect & of course vaccines do have failure rates & carry risks. One way of testing for immunity is having titre done. So why booster for something if you don`t know whether it`s needed or not?

Christine, Spain.

I can see that :) Our trainer has had a life working with dogs - she runs kennels and a pet crematorium. She is still convinced that boosters are the way to go. Perhaps if more vets offered the titre tests initially before doing the boosters and gave some sort of certificate that the immunity levels were normal, then more places would take that as OK. Also, more publicity needs to be given about the testing and some backing by the RCVS. At the moment, just accepting that the dog had it's initial jabs perhaps many years ago, doesn't mean that it is immune :( so kennels etc have to err on the cautious side :(

Daisy

I can understand why clubs and kennels would insist on vaccination, for fear of spreading disease, but why on earth do insurance companies push for them? With so many cases of vaccinosis you would think they'd at least accept homeopathic nosodes. One hopes they at least cover treatment for vaccinosis, I doubt whether they would stump up compensation if they've insisted you vaccinate!!

Kath.

They dont cover it Kath as a member of our training club found out after her dog died

Just a thought, but do you think those who do not have their stock vaccinated or boostered or rely on some other method are relying on the fact that the rest do, and that fact helps to control generalised infection. And if the number who do drop below a certain level all hell will be let loose?

Her`s another thought, are the dogs who cannot be boostered or vaccinated ever again due to immune damage caused by vaccines, which is a known side affect, at risk due to disease shedding into the enviroment from recently vaccinated animals?
Also it is a known fact that only healthy animals should be vaccinated, the manufacturers themselves state this, that means any dogs with auto immune diseases, taking steroids, have allergies. Wonder why vets still vaccinate/booster them.
Boosters can not give more immunity than an animal already has. If the immunity is there it cannot be made more by boosters

Christine, Spain.

I think that's a very valid point, Jackie H.

They're finding that out with children in certain areas - the number of measles cases this year is likely to be at least 3 times that of last year, because the level of vaccination has dropped. If that happens with children, it is very likely to happen with dogs too.

But children are not vaccinated yearly are they for measles etc they are one offs!

I have Autoimmune disease caused by having a multitude of vaccines which over whelmed my immune system No i do not infect others but I am liable to catch anything that is going around as I has to have my immune system supressed to stop the white blood cells destroying the red blood cells etc

It may be a valid point J/G ...for reasons to booster.......but this thread is headed benefits of not boostering ;)

I'll consider my wrist slapped, Christine! ;) :)

LOL@ J/G :D

Christine, Spain.

I thought it was too much to hope for !!

Kath.

EDIT: this is in answer to Moonmaiden Re: not covering vaccinosis. Sorry this has got lost way down the thread!!

No I`m sorry Daisy *Perhaps if more vets offered the titre tests initially before doing the boosters and gave some sort of certificate that the immunity levels were normal, then more places would take that as OK.* titre testing doesnt work like that. The blood is tested by a laboratory, an excellent one is Glasgow Diagnostic Services, which is part of Glasgow Vet University. The results are graded according to the lab & they will show the amount of antibodies present in the animal to whichever disease it`s been tested for. So many antibodies & the dog is immune, so few & it isn`t!!! Thats it no certificate is needed. That is proof as designed by the scientists thenselves.
Now Dr`s Schultz/Dodds/Charmicael are experts in this field & they have provided proof of the existing immunty to distemper of at least 7yrs, parvo at least 3yrs & I can`t remember the rest. Also the makers of the vaccines state that they have found that themselves(all facts, not assumption) & thats why I know it`s not necessary for me to booster my dogs. Also you do know that when you vaccinate animals with attenuated modified live vaccines, the virus sheds into the enviroment meaning the virus is always around?
I do definitely agree with you that more publicity needs to be give about booster & titres & thats what we`re trying to do here. If you tell your vet you want your dog titred before the booster he will do it, it`s only a matter f him drawing a small amount of blood & sending it to the lab. I wouldn`t hold my breath waiting for them to tell you, far be it from me to suggest it may not be in their interests for people to know that it`s not necessary to booster evry yr :)

Christine, Spain.

I'd be very happy to have the tests done - but it is pointless if I want to continue using kennels and going to my training club :( It's a vicious circle isn't it ? Until there is a general change of policy by vets in general - those of us who tend to be more cautious (my children have had every jab going as recommended by government :) ) will continue to do as vets recommend :(

Daisy

Hi
I'm actually seeing Chris Day with my oldie on Monday, and one of the things we will be asking him, is about the use of nosodes.
Will keep you posted! I've spoken to Pet Plan who all mine are insured with, and they've confirmed that it's only the diseases that vaccination usually protects against, that would not be covered.

Sami

http://www.gla.ac.uk/companion/prevax.htm

Christine, I will ask for evidence. Thanks. I would be interested to know how much people have paid for their titre tests. The link above does give prices but being a bit thick, I can't work them out!

Jacky

Hi J/j, one of the posters had her dog titred just a couple wks ago & put the results & costs up on here. Have a search for it.

Christine, Spain.

Hi Sami thats great :) Hope all goes well.

Christine, Spain.

It's good to read everyone's views on this subject - it's an important issue which needs regular airing.

As I suggested at the start of this thread, it would be interesting to compare the health of dogs who are not boostered against those who are - irrespective of what vets/insurance companies/training clubs/boarding kennels advise or require. As Christine and I have said, we feel that are dogs are generally healthier without the yearly jabs.

Those of you who, for whatever reason, have decided to continue boostering, would you say that your dogs are equally as fit and healthy ? Do you rarely visit the vet ? I'm not trying to generate any kind of competition here - I am genuinely interested in knowing how boostering or not boostering affects the health of our dogs over a period of time.

Joyce

Hi Joyce,

I'll just make it clear I have no personal axe to grind here - these are my experiences! My dogs are boostered every year, and, barring injuries etc, that is the only time they visit the vet. The only time I decided not to booster was with my 15 year old, who was clearly on borrowed time, and as she lived a very quiet life was considered at low risk.

When I was a little girl, before the days as mass vaccination, our family dog contracted distemper (hardpad) and never recovered, being very ill before he died. My mother tells me watching him suffer convinced her that she would never again put one of her pets at risk that way.

Hi JG, I had to watch first my 8wk old puppy go down with an horrendous disease, (vet was so sure it was caused by the vacc that he cancelled his contract straight away with the makers of it & changed to another manufacturer) nurse him for 3wks & then watch him contract & die from another disease, parvo, and carry on nursing the rest of the pups who also had parvo. They had been vaccinated against parvo, so obviously vaccinating doesn`t come with any guarantee that a) it`s 100% effective & b) the animal won`t suffer any adverse reaction ranging from minor to death.
Two pups who are still with me from that litter have only had 1 vacc for adno/distemper since then (they both had a skin reaction after & it was done when I knew no better) when they were 10mths old or so. Theyve been out & about to shows, mixing with other dogs, people etc & have been fine up till now. The benefit they have from not being boostered is no more harm will be done to their immune system, which any other booster would almost certainly do.

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine,
Please don't misunderstand me, I can quite understand your point of view. I'm sure under those circumstances I'd feel exactly the same. However Joyce did ask for personal experiences, as to whether dogs that are regularly boostered visit the vet a lot (and not to make it into a competition as to whose dogs are healthier) and I was simply giving my input.
:)

Does anyone give boosters every two years rather than one?

Yes I have done mine every other year, and in line with what the vaccination manufacturers advise in USA will in future do the every three. I want to do the Lepto annually though.

I read that there is a new vaccine out for this with proven efficacy for a whole year (the cuurent ones are not very good lasting on average only 6 months).

Can anyone remember what it is called.

No it`s OK J/G, I understand :)

Christine, Spain.

I`ve put together a list of links to some of the articles I quote from for anyone who`d like to have a read. I had them all in order with a little comment about what each one was about but as I added the last link I clicked the wrong thing & lost the whole lot so had to do them again!! Now they are pick n mix :)

Christine, Spain.

http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1
http://www.homestead.com/vonhapsburg/haywardstudyonvaccines.html
http://www.homestead.com/vonhapsburg/vaccines1.html
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/DrMcCluggage.pdf
http://www.avma.org/policies/vaccination.htm
http://www.danebytes.com/vaccine_article.htm
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/192002.htm
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/ImmuneSystem.htm
http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/articles/vaccineprotocols.pdf
http://devinefarm.net/rp/rpvaccin.htm
http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

Sorry, post deleted and put further down.

Heck, I keep getting them in the wrong place.

Kath

Jeangenie, I agree that vaccination is very important in both dogs and children (know someone who lost a child to measles through not vaccinating).

It is also extremely unfair to rely on everyone else vaccinating so that you (not you personally) don't have to, and which is why some diseases are on the increase again. I think the important thing with both dogs and children is to have the initial vaccination, but in the case of dogs, beware the frequent, lifelong boosters.

Fiona and Saffy (who has had her initial vaccination and first annual booster, but who may not have any more!)

Pick and mix. LOL, Christine :D

Thanks for those links. I shall enjoy looking at those though my eyes are bloodshot just keeping up with you lot!! :)

Hi, Alexanders.
I don't think people (not me anyway) are intentionally relying on others to do the vaccinating, we just don't feel it's right for our dogs (or at all, maybe) and perhaps don't know there's any alternative. This is why we're discussing Homeopathy (and anything else that helps, diet etc.) and weighing up the benefits of not boostering.

Kath. :)

I've always had my cats and dogs vaccinated, but my second youngest's dog's breeder had protected her with nosodes. I was persuaded by my "then" vet, to jave her conventionally vaccinated however. I did, and she has had 1 booster. My youngest dog has only had her puppy vaccs. and will be due for her first booster in December. My oldie has a severely compromised immune system now, leukaemia, and will not be vaccinated again....after 12 years of boosters, she's had enough!!! I lost a beautiful pedigree cat last year, who had always been vaccinated, and always had a reaction to the vaccine....but still the "then "vet vaccinated. Knowing what I do now, my remaining animals will not have annual boosters.
I'm lucky enough to be having a first consultation today with Chris Day, with my oldie.(With the blessing of my "new" vet, who although admits he's a sceptic, has nevertheless referred my dog. Now, that's what I call customer service!!)
I will get all the info possible on nosodes, and make arrangements for him to supply me with the relavant remedies.

Sami

Hi Sami,
What a fantastic new vet you have, one who's willing to be open minded despite being sceptical. What irritates me when I've used Homeop. remedies is people who, if a particular remedy hasn't worked say "Homeopathy doesn't work" and if it has worked, they say "obviously, it would have got better by itself". They don't question what the docs give them.

I'm sorry to hear about your problems. I hope your Appt. with Chris Day goes well and he gets your oldie sorted out. Keep us updated.

Kath.

Well, we've just returned from consultation with Mr Day.
I'm feeling very pleased with the way he treats the whole animal, not just the symptoms.And takes note of everything we told him about her.
He has realigned her lower spine and her neck, with chiropractic manipulation, and prescribed remedies for her heart, leukaemia and mobility. Also found she has a urinary infection, although she had a full urine analysis done only a couple of weeks ago, which I was told was not showing a problem, despite her drinking and urinating more.
I'm hopeful that it will give her back her good quality of life, so fingers crossed!!

PS. My others are on nosodes from now on!! They do not vaccinate or boost anything: what they do is encourage their bodies to protect themselves against any disease they may encounter.

Sami