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By weims ![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 03.02.02 19:19 UTC
someone I know who has a 7 month old weimaraner is going to have him castrated next week. I think this is too early... he is a well behaved. well balanced dog and is getting on well with the spayed bitch he is living with. his owners say the reason for having him castrated is that they dont want him to dominate the bitch when he gets a older? Also to stop him roaming... but training will stop this (if it starts). In my house the eldest bitch is the dominant dog with the male second in line and his sister the bottom of the pack.. so it doesnt always work out that the male is the "top dog".
What do you think?
Lynn
By John
Date 03.02.02 20:01 UTC
Bitches almost always keep the poor dog in order, just like in humans!!!!
Regards, John
By gary2
Date 03.02.02 20:16 UTC
Finn is at the bottom of the heap along with ME!!
If for no other reason than that I think their action a little drastic. Get them to contact the breeder of the dog to ask their advice,,No good asking a vet they'll take the money every time.
Pecking order is decided very early wether he has his Nad's or not. If the bitch is older and spayed I see no reason to look for problems, If she is anything like My lot she will put him in his place even if his B***s were cast iron
By LISA68
Date 03.02.02 20:20 UTC
Is my dog strange? Oscar was castrated when he was 8 years old for medical reasons and in the year since he was done I have definitely found him to be more dominant with my bitch and more aggressive with other dogs.
By Jackie H
Date 04.02.02 06:41 UTC
I have only ever castrated one dog and would never ever do it again except for health reasons. Oh! and my bitch rules the roost, as far as she it concerened I am the only one with higher rights and I have to remind her of that quite often. JH
By Ingrid
Date 04.02.02 08:29 UTC
No Osacar is not strange, it is one of the side affects that can happen, just nobody mentions it when they recommend castration as the great cure all for all behaviour problems. I have heard said that it's rare, it's not as rare as people think, but usually castration of problems dogs is followed by training which would have cured the problem in the first place if the owners had bothered, and in a dog as young as the the weim that started this discussion you will never know as he hasn't had time to develop properly.
One thing that does interest me is has anyone heard of a vet that does vasectomies as an alternative to stop unwanted breeding, most vets I have spoken to just laugh at the idea. Many years ago a Vet I used did them but when he retired the practice stopped it. Ingrid
By weims
Date 04.02.02 09:03 UTC
Gary... I am the breeder ! The person concerned is not listening to what I am saying and I thought someone might be able to come up with something new that I could tell her... I have gone thru all the arguments for not having him done so early but she is determined that he is going this friday! Unless I can persuade her otherwise!
Lynn
By Jackie H
Date 04.02.02 12:12 UTC
I've sent you an e-mail, let me know if you don't get it, it is not a virus honist. Jackie H
By Leigh
Date 04.02.02 16:32 UTC
Ingrid, I have used this method with rescue dogs in the past. Vets here do prefer to castrate though. Leigh
By sierra
Date 04.02.02 12:27 UTC
Yes, Ingrid, there are vets in the States that do vasectomies. A lot of people don't want their male dog 'looking strange' and have identification problems with neutering a male, so I know several vets that did vasectomies to prevent unwanted breedings, particularly where there was an unaltered bitch in the house (remember in the US neutered dogs/bitches may not be shown).
Frankly, I think it is a great idea for those who have major qualms with neutering. Bitches can also have their tubes tied, but will still come into season which kind of excludes one of the major reasons for spaying a bitch.
By Pammy
Date 04.02.02 15:54 UTC
This could also be very interesting in the field of showing as the standards say - two normally decended testicles - if they're "snipped" then they'll still have those!!
Pam n the boys
By Ingrid
Date 04.02.02 17:54 UTC
I wonder why vets prefer castration, is it just an easier thing to do ?
Yes I've heard the argument about stopping various cancers but I've never had a dog done and all have lived long active lives without any problems.
Personally I prefer my boys with all their bits and am convinced that doing them early does stop natural development in both body and character, vasectomies for me would be the ideal solution.
Ingrid
The KC rules state Operations to prevent breeding, doesn't mention castration! So the KC would have to agree it as per their policy!
Anyone want to test it out, or alternatively do as a large number of spayed bitch owners do, Say nought, :D no one can tell!
By fleetgold
Date 04.02.02 09:09 UTC
No, not unusual. It can certainly happen.
Joan
Take the rough with the smooth
By weimowner
Date 05.02.02 10:16 UTC
So far, you have only heard Lynn’s side and I would very much like, as the subject matter of your discussion, to put my side across. Firstly, this is purely a matter that has my dogs’ best interests as members of my family at heart. I am basing any decisions that I make purely on my own circumstances and dogs; their well-being is uppermost in my mind.
I have said all along that I am prepared to listen to anything constructive that Lynn can produce to substantiate her feelings about not having this done and so far I have not received any hard evidence in order for me to do this. Not for want of trying either, together with this posting and also one that I have been keeping abreast of on another forum, where incidentally not one response has corroborated Lynn’s theory, but resoundingly agreed with mine, it would seem that it is a struggle to find anything to validate the ‘don’t do it’ attitude. Owners with a longstanding knowledge of Weimaraners of both sexes have also in fact confirmed a matter that we also don’t agree on about the health benefits that this surgery can offer, (and I quote) “I do not know of any real health benefits to castrating the male dog”. With comments like this that I know to be incorrect, how am I supposed to take an objective view on Lynn’s reasons for not having my dog castrated?
For those that are still interested and haven’t fallen asleep yet at this lengthy response, my reasons are these (taken from my original postings on a weim list we belong to, so they have not changed):
>>I am currently extremely happy with the way my two dogs interact both between them and also where they fit into my family structure, i.e. at the bottom. ‘dog’ is currently a very well balanced male weim, he has the potential to rock the boat though and we therefore do everything within our power to enforce our 3 yr old weim bitch as the alpha dog. To avoid, as Claire said, problems in the future, I feel that this (castration) is a step in the right direction to maintaining the status quo. I do not wish to subject ‘bitch’ to any unnecessary thuggish adolescent behaviour from a dog that is clearly going to be bigger than she is. Also, bearing in mind where we live, our dogs quite often run loose on our 4 acre field when ‘husband’ is working outside. About 200 feet in front of our driveway there is a busy A road running past. I do not want to put temptation in dogs way if he ends up with the desire to roam, the only way out of our property for him if he did roam would more than likely be under a set of a juggernaught's wheels. Again, I want to stop this urge before it rears it's head.
END QUOTE.
The issue of roaming is a look into the future, forgive me for this, I do worry about where we live. Neither dog shows any sign of this anyway so it is not really an issue that needs much attention.
By Leigh
Date 05.02.02 10:39 UTC
Welcome to the forum Weimowner.
The saying "if it ain't broke... don't mend it" springs to mind :D
Personally, I would be loathed to risk an anaesthetic for problems that
might present in the future.
>>I do not wish to subject ‘bitch’ to any unnecessary thuggish adolescent behaviour from a dog that is clearly going to be bigger than she is.
I would be very interested to know,why you think that castration will stop this 'behaviour'? Training could stop this behaviour to a degree, surgery will not I am afraid. I am also certain, that your bitch is more then capable of pointing out the error of his ways, should the need arise :-)
Leigh
By weimowner
Date 05.02.02 11:18 UTC
Thank you for the response Leigh.
The subject of anaesthetic has already come up, I have discussed this with a well qualified friend in the ‘industry’, this is her response: “anaesthesia has made great advances in the past few years, most animals have injectable anaesthesia as a pre-med, then go onto inhalation anaesthesia, which is much safer, veterinary surgeries are equipped to deal with emergencies and they will have oxygen and adrenaline ready for emergency situations” As you may be aware, male neutering is a 20 minute operation, unlike the spaying of a bitch that can mean hours under anaesthetic. Are you therefore implying that we should not spay our bitches as they are at greater risk due to being ‘under’ for longer?
To your other query I respond like this, castration would remove a lot of aggression simply because he will not have all of that testosterone coursing through his veins, look at body builders when they inject steroid and testosterone. They get extremely aggressive and demand sex all the time, read any Take- a- Break or Chat magazine!! If he doesn't get a chance to experience that really strong urge to copulate or be aggressive then he will not have it ingrained in his mind.
I completely agree with the point that to remove a dog’s testicles will not stop any aggression or roaming etc that is already shown in a dog’s behaviour. They are then in my mind already conditioned to doing this, (subsequent training may help dampen this but it will never truly go away). My argument is that if this procedure is carried out prior to these traits becoming ingrained, then you will have a better chance of having a more ‘rounded’ individual later when all those other 18 month old dogs are sent to rescue organisations.
I must add that I am a novice with weims, I do question my own ability due to my lack of experience with young male weims in that I am not sure how I would cope with an ‘out of control’ adolescent. I can already hear people shouting, ‘you shouldn’t have one then if you can’t cope with it’ but as far as I am concerned, I am probably being far more responsible as an owner than all those people that might be shouting. At least I am not afraid of admitting this instead of going with the flow so that I don’t upset everyone’s ideas and end up with a dog that I can’t handle.
I await more responses/challenges, and yes, I will have a reply to anything you put to me. As I said previously, I am not taking this lightly, I am trying to make an informed decision and as such I have done the research!
By Jackie H
Date 05.02.02 18:22 UTC
I wish you could see my poor old boy that I stupidly castrated at 13 months. But as you can't you will have to take my word for his sad condition, please don't do it.
My dog aren't your breed, but I have two intact males, one bitch and the castrated male, the bitch more than holds her own with the intact males but they all jump on the poor old boy who is castrated and we have to give him HRT to help him, among other things, to be more assertive.
Jackie H
By weimowner
Date 06.02.02 09:55 UTC
Hello Jackie,
Thank you for your reply. Could you please give me some more information re your dog? What breed is he, why did you decide to have him done at 13 months and what is it about him now that makes you describe him as being in a ‘sad condition’? How did he fit into the pecking order before he was castrated?
By Jackie H
Date 06.02.02 16:19 UTC
I have sent you an e-mail as it is to long to put on here, You will have to make your own mind up, and if you decide to go ahead, I hope you will have a trouble free time with your boy, I can only say that having had the experience with castration that I have I would only do it again to save the dogs life. Jackie H
By John
Date 05.02.02 19:19 UTC
Sorry Weimowner but I dont think Take A Break or Chat Magazine are qualified to talk about dogs (Nor men for that matter) Some, (Most) of the people here have years of experience to fall back on and know what they are saying.
John
By Bec
Date 05.02.02 20:07 UTC
My castrated dog (who was done at 10mths) is the Boss in my house and my entire male boxer is right down at the bottom of the heap so I really think it depends on your dogs nature more than anything else.
By sierra
Date 05.02.02 20:49 UTC
I agree, Bec. Though I have to also admit that I really don't understand all the adament opposition to neutering. Color me confused once more. I went through 60 of the 30,500 articles found through a search engine on spaying/neutering and only one had possible adverse effects (and attributed those to spaying/neutering done prior to puberty).
Neutering Male Dogs, an article by a Member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Cousellors
Neutering: Benefits and Safety Vetclick’s Neutering Article Pros and Cons of Neutering Male Dogs by Amanda Booth, B.Sc., D.V.M., M.VetSc.
Spaying and Neutering by American Dog Trainers Network
A Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers (did mention some possible adverse effects if done
prior to puberty
[link http://www.peteducation.com/category_summary.cfm?cls=2&cat=1625] Spaying and Neutering[/link] by Race Foster, DVM and Marty Smith, DVM, particularly [link http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1625&articleid=911] Neutering – Why It’s a Good Idea[/link]
Manage Reproduction - PROGRAM FOR COMPANION ANIMAL BEHAVIOR , School of Veterinary Medicine, UC Davis
By Quinn2
Date 05.02.02 21:46 UTC
As I have always understood it, intact dogs & cats are higher up in the ranking system than neutered or spayed ones. I think the dominance of the animal doesn't have as much to do with sex as temperament does. If you have a dominant female in the house, she will rule. Same goes for males. They all have to find their own place in the pecking order. You can't force it on them!
And as far as steroid popping body builders having a higher sex drive, well, I've always heard they have "performance" problems!
By weimowner
Date 06.02.02 09:58 UTC
It is interesting to read that neutering is carried out at 6 or 7 WEEKS without any impact on a dogs development. This is obviously a fairly new train of thought, but as with the concept of mobile phones 10 years ago, when we would have laughed at someone if they said that most of the population would have one including children in a few years time, we may all be routinely neutering our dogs in a few years time at 6 or 7 weeks old if we have no intention of showing or breeding them!
The dog world must surely move with the times and the new research that is carried out, (see links in Sierra’s post) could be a step toward this?
By sierra
Date 06.02.02 12:08 UTC
There was a thread that had a lot of discussion about
early neutering that you may find interesting. Early neutering has been going on in the US for years. I have to say that given the UK contractual laws and the purported inability of a breeder to enforce their spay/neuter contracts I am leaning more and more toward being pro early neutering.
My feelings on neutering for those dogs which I am not responsible for producing is that each person must follow what they believe to be in the best interest of their dog and lifestyle
unless there was a contract stating that the dog would not be neutered without first seeking the agreement of the breeder. It has been pointed out repeatedly though that in the UK puppy contracts are really not worth much so I'm not sure other than an ethical obligation how that would even impact the decision.
By weimowner
Date 06.02.02 09:56 UTC
Ah, perhaps you should read the posting again re Take a Break, and put it into the context from where it came…oh, and grin or put your tongue in your cheek while you do so! ;o)
Hi Weimowner
As you mentioned my name briefly in a posting above I feel I should post my thoughts for what they are worth! I still disagree with castrating a dog so young as mentioned in my email on a different forum but then that is just my personal opinion :-) It seems to me that there are a lot of people who are against castrating at a young age. I'm sure you have done research already but seeing as you only brought this subject to certain people's attention only a few days ago, I personally would postpone the operation until I had looked into matters even further.
Now I'm not just saying that to bide extra time as at the end of the day the decision will be yours. I got the impression when you first told of your plans that you had spoken to a few people and were happy with their responses to go ahead and castrate, however I also got the impression those people only pointed out what they considered to be positive reasons for castrating. Now that you have been made aware of what negative reasons are also to be considered I personally don't feel you have given yourself enough time to consider ALL the pros and cons.
I was faced with a similar situation when having my bitch speyed due to health reasons and believe me the decision was not taken lightly, one minute I was for it the next I was against it, I even contacted a specialist at the University of Bristol to discuss my case (much to my vet's slight annoyance & amusement) and eventually after talking to goodness knows how many specialists, vets and my breeder about 2 months later we made our decision and we still stick by it.
I hope I don't sound patronizing and I know you love your dogs to bits. I just wanted to throw other thoughts into your pot for you to consider without sounding like trying to get you to come round to other people's way of thinking. It may not always sound like it but everyone is trying to offer you help and advice as they see fit but it is up to you only as to what you do with that advice and the decision you make will hopefully be the right one for you. One thing I would say is if it were me (no offence to others) I would be talking to people who know the breed inside out as every breed is totally different particularly when it comes to something like castration.
I wish you well in whatever you decide. :-)
By weimowner
Date 06.02.02 09:57 UTC
Thank you Claire for you response, it is most refreshing to hear your approach, I shall probably take more notice of how you have put this than all the replies that just say ‘no, don’t do it’. I am listening to both sides, I have said all along that I would, however when you hear the likes of Lois and Sierra (Lois being more than qualified specifically with Weimaraners) encouraging the neutering of young Weims/dogs it is very difficult to hear others when they say their reasons for not doing it.
I do appreciate that everyone is offering help and advice that is why I am grateful that this thread has remained on the board. I hope that people don’t think that I am being stubborn or single minded about this, if I was I would have said, ‘no, that’s it, I have made my decision and that is it’, I haven’t said that, so please keep posting your thoughts!
By Quinn2
Date 06.02.02 10:18 UTC
Hello again Weimowner! :) It sounds to me like you have already made your decision. The world will not stop if you neuter or don't. Life is unpredictable and no one can say for sure what will happen if you opt for surgery. The same can be said for keeping him in tact. Your alpha bitch could get sick or even just old and the balance of power will shift. I could go on and on, but you get my drift. :)
Oh, and if you do decide to go ahead with the op., ask your vet about prosthetic testicles. They are all the rage in The States! :D :p
By weimowner
Date 06.02.02 10:21 UTC
ROFLMAO!! Thanks for that, made me laugh amongst all these posts!
By weims
Date 05.02.02 11:26 UTC
[deleted]
By lisa
Date 05.02.02 11:49 UTC
Just my thoughts. Sorry weimowner but you kinda shot yourself in the foot with your earlier comment about the body builders. You stated "they inject steriods and testosterone" so you have admitted their behaviour is due to abnormal levels of testosterone. So nless you intend to inject your dog the two cannot compare.
I had a work colleague with a very naughty 18 month old weim. Naughtiness brought about through lack of training etc. They on the advice of some had him castrated, they now have a very naughty weim minus 2 dangly bits :) I had my westie castrated at 3 yrs old and if anything he know beleives he has the balls of a rottie and not a westie. So from my own experience castration solves nothing. Training and training alone (and I have had my fair share of problems with my 2 males) works. I was advised again whe I recently had problems with my afghan to either castrate or at least try chemical castration. I did neither, just took loads of training advise, booked myself and him for one to one lessons and made sure everything was re-inforced at home by everyone! It has by all means not been easy but we ARE seeing a difference. That was with a 2 yr old however had we started at 7 months with what we are doing now then I fell we would never of got to this situation. I am really lucky as my vets I feel do what they were trained for and that is to help animals. They therefore would always try and talk anyone out of castration unless they really felt there was really no alternative.
I don't breed, never have and never will (too much like hard work) and I also don't show although I could. I also don't have years of experience in different situations however knowing what I have gone through castration will only make your purse lighter and not change/alter the potential behaviour patterns of your dog. Only your hard work and training will do that so I'd put my hand back in my pocket and save it for vets fee's that really are a neccessatie (fingers crossed they never arise)
By rottybird
Date 06.02.02 17:01 UTC
well, i'm new to this forum and i am quite surprised at peoples opinions.
We have just had our 7 month Rottweiler castrated. We chatted to the breeder about castration when we purchased him. She advised that if we didn't want to breed from him and we were in any way concerned about him trying to get out to get to a bitch in heat, to castrate him. She had no qualms whatsoever about whether this was the right thing to do. She said that we would get a well rounded more loving dog. My (wonderful) veterianary surgeon also agreed with this decision. She said that there were far too many unwanted dogs and cats in this world. If everybody disagreed with castration think of the problems that would be created, many, many beautiful animals are destroyed everyday. We castrate cats and horses as a matter of routine, nobody is so anti-castration with these species. Surely it is up too the individual as to whether they want to castrate their animal? If Weimowner wants to castrate his/her dog and his/her veterinary surgeon is happy to do it, then how is it anybody elses business to tell him/her that what they are doing is wrong?
If i buy a new horse, i certainly wouldn't expect the old owner to tell me what i can and cannot do with my new animal. The only exception to this was when i took a kitten from the CPL (cats protection league) i had to sign a re-homing form stating that i would have the animal neutered at 6 months of age, i was given a form for my veterinary surgeon to stamp and sign to say that i had done this. I believe that Weimowner is being a mature and exceptionally responsible owner, good on them!!!!!
By weimowner
Date 07.02.02 09:44 UTC
Thanks RottyBird for your vote of support in this, particularly as you have a large breed as well. Whilst I have had emails sent to me personally showing support for my decisions, it is good to see someone post to this effect.
Sadly, other events have taken over this matter and my dog is not in a position to have this surgery now anyway.
On my first visit to my vet – whom I also happen to think is fantastic, (they successfully diagnosed a condition known as a pelvic/brick shaped bladder in my weim bitch for which she has since had major surgery – but that’s another story!) to discuss my dog’s castration, I mentioned that we were concerned about a few things with him. Blood tests were carried out for which we have received the results this week.
It appears that he has a condition known as Addison’s Disease. (www.supervet.co.uk/dog/addisons.html has a very good article). He has since undergone further testing yesterday and the results of this should confirm the diagnosis on Monday.
Thanks to everyone though for his or her input to the discussion on his castration, both for and against. :o)
By issysmum
Date 07.02.02 11:02 UTC
I've emailed you some links I have on Addisons.
Fiona Bray
I hope everything turns out okay for you both. Keep us informed on his progress won't you. I agree that is a very good article indeed, very informative, I've added the addy to my favourites.
Lots of Luck :-)
By rottybird
Date 07.02.02 13:49 UTC
Hi Weimowner,
i'm so sorry to hear about your dogs condition,
i hope that everything turns out ok for you,
Please keep us posted on his condition, good luck,
RottyBird.
By Jackie H
Date 13.02.02 17:27 UTC
Hi Weimowner, how is your boy doing, any news on his treatment yet. Hope you are able to get his condition under control soon, if you have not done so already. Jackie H
By weimowner
Date 14.02.02 12:20 UTC
Hi Jackie,
Thanks for asking after him, Otto has been given the all clear following his ACTH test (see the posting titled Addison's Disease also on the Health board).
BTW, you are only a couple of miles from me, we're in Deeping St Nicholas!
Regards,
Nina.
By Jackie H
![[us]](/images/flags/us.png "United States")
Date 14.02.02 14:09 UTC
Very pleased to hear that your boy is OK, it would have been ironic if after I sent you the notes on my boys problems yours had turned out to have similar ones and not as yet castrated. Jackie H.
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