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By stephanieohara
![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 09.10.03 15:53 UTC
Should i get Mia wearing a choker when we are out on walks?
By Jackie H
Date 09.10.03 15:59 UTC
NO, use a half check if you need more control.
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 16:39 UTC
My mia has a half check, its not as harsh on her young neck.
Her dad, however, does have a choke chain as he is fully developed. I don't use it for the choke action tho. If used correctly the choke chain slides up when the dog pulls. This makes such a noise that the dog thinks less of pulling to get to wherever quicker, but turns its attention to the noise. As its so close to her head it scares him a little and he slows down.
It works a treat, he walks to heal with no bother at all.
The half check still makes the niose but offers more support to the throat area. My mia walks fine with it.
Do you mean a full check-chain collar? :) They are only chokers when the handler does not use them correctly.
Christine
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 19:14 UTC
Yes, they are more commonly known as the choker though. I know they are not designed to actually choke the dog and responsible use of the collar will help to conrol the dog. A friend of mine uses them with his gun dogs and has had a lot of sucess with them.
By digger
Date 09.10.03 18:06 UTC
IS there any particular reason you think she should have one? If you need more control, try using a training harness or a headcollar (but not a headcollar if you use an extending lead) and work more on the training....
By mandatas
Date 09.10.03 19:28 UTC
NO, they are very old fashioned, rarely work and have been proved to cause damage to the wind pipe, neck and optical nerve at the back of the eye.
If she is pulling and you have tried a half check, use one of the headcollars or anti pulling harneses out there. They are much safer and kinder.
manda
x
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 19:42 UTC
I beg to differ. My dog has a choke chain and it works fine. I am unable to use a head halti as he is terrified of having anything over his head or face. This is the only way we can stop his pulling without distressing him by using head collars. I have found that harnesses are of little use with such a large breed. This was a last resort and we are pleased with the result.
Everyone has diferent circumstances to accomodate while trying to train and control their beloved pets. While you are entitled to your opinion. please do not lay down the law regarding methods of control without knowing why these methods have to be used.
By Jackie H
Date 09.10.03 19:51 UTC
Would never advice a novice owner to use a full slip (choke) collar, they need skill to use properly and should not be used on a pulling dog. Use either a harness or a half choke and take the dog to training classes.
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 19:56 UTC
Its hardly difficult. If i can use one anyone can! A vet or trainer should be able to point in the right direction.
A question was asked, i gave what advice i could (as i thought everone here did) and now i am recieving abuse. Lovely this place!
By Jackie H
Date 09.10.03 19:58 UTC
Who has abused you, not me, I just don't agree with you, thats all.
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 20:07 UTC
It often gets nasty in here when debates start up and people put their opinions accross.
We all have different experiences with our dogs, my latest has been Kuma with his fear of things over his head. Thus making the use of a halti impossible. The Check chain has worked fine for me. I must admit i didn't like it at first but as i got used to it i have found its okay. He hates the chinking sound of the chain and it stops a pull before it starts. Perfect.
You have obviously had a bad experience with the chain, and therefore advise against its use incase someone else has a similar experience.
Whatever, the person posting this thread has been given a number of options and she can make her own mind up.
By Jackie H
Date 09.10.03 20:47 UTC
Exactly, I still don't see where the abuse or nastiness comes in, your happy to advice a novice to use a choke chain, I am not. Your are sure people will use it correctly, I am not. We just disagree, having reason from our own experience to advice it totally different directions. Would only add that if someone is going to use this type of collar they find out how to use it and do not use it on a pulling dog.
By LlMEY
![[fr]](/images/flags/fr.png "France")
Date 09.10.03 21:13 UTC
A check chain used correctly is excellent for some dogs. I used one on the GSD I had for many years, a rattle of the chain was all that was needed - and training into it was minutes.
Do agree that someone that knows how to use a check chain shows a novice... and everyone is a novice to start with including half check chain users ;).
Find a training school you like the look of, just go along and watch for a night without your dog most I think will let you do that. Then try their methods with their recommended collar, be it check chain or something else.
The check chain has got a bad rep through improper use as a CHOKE chain. Setting the ring under rather than over will turn it into a choke chain, it doesn't release if a tug is given. Used properly there is nothing cruel about it.
To me the cruelest thing of all is seeing a dog pulling its owner along as if it were a huskey pulling a sled! Dogs are all different - but finding a method that works for the dog AND the dog owner is the priority in my opinion... both need to feel good about it.
Regards Dave
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 21:39 UTC
Thank-you Dave!
Just the point i was trying to make and made a bloody mess of it as per usual!
By jacki
Date 09.10.03 21:49 UTC
Don't take it to heart miasmum, sometimes on posts its hard to type out what you mean without sounding abrupt because you can't see the posters face, i have made this mistake myself although i didn't mean to be abrupt, jackie H was only saying not to advise novice owners to use a choker, can't see anything abusive in that myself :)
By Miasmum
Date 09.10.03 22:03 UTC
Had a few problems on here about a year ago. Just returned with a bit more experience with my dogs.
I'm still a bit on the defensive after last time, jumping at everything you know?
I know nothing personal is ment but its instinct to jump on the defensive. Just trying to help someone out.
I use a head collar and i swear by them, i found a choker was literally choking my young lab and i will never go back to using a choker.
heidi
p.s Toby is only 7months, one day his tongue went blue because he was pulling to get to a friend.
By stephanieohara
Date 10.10.03 07:10 UTC
The reason for asking whether i should use a choke chain on Mia is because i have tried on several occasions to use a harness, she hates it refuses to move let alone walk, i thinks she feels it restricts her, don’t ask me why, my old dog loved the harness, think its possibly just the way Mia is, even our friend who is a trainer says that if she doesn’t like it don’t use it which is fair enough, Mia also doesn’t like a head collar, probably for the same reason (i think i have the most picky dog in the world!) the other reason for asking my question is she is so god dam big around her neck that a lot of pet shops in my area for some reason don’t do collars bigger than 16" Mia's is over 18" so i thought that something along the line of a choke would be useful not only to control her when she get a bit excited (not in the pulling sense to choke but in the noise sense to stop her pulling) but also so it fits round her neck.
Can I also point out that I’m not a novice, been keeping dogs for years, just never kept a rottie before, totally different breed of dog, different needs and different personalities.:D
Miasmum thanks for your help ;)
By Jackie H
Date 10.10.03 07:48 UTC
Sorry again. Stephanieohara, don't know why I thought you were a novice dog owner and not just new to the breed, but still would advice you try either a half check or taking the dog to training classes to practice using a full chain choke. Guess if I had not seen the damage that can be caused I would not be so insistent but believe me they can cause horrible damage, not just bruising to the skin and underlying tissue but in some cases they have been know to damage the spine, the other thing to consider is they can be slipped.
By stephanieohara
Date 10.10.03 08:03 UTC
Jackie,
Thanks for your comments will defiantly keep that in mind, I do have my reservations about using a choke think I will take your advice and use a half check, Mia is such a powerful dog already, she is very well behaved even for her age, I just don’t want her one day to go loopy at something break off her collar and run off, you never know what could happen, I really need a collar that is gonna withstand her strength and something that I can control her with (in a nice humane way) if she does go loopy for some reason (hopefully she wont)
Thank you again for your comments they are much appreciated. :)
Steph.
By Jackie H
Date 10.10.03 07:24 UTC
Miasmum, was not having a go at you at all but have seen some bad injuries cause by full slip chains and even in one case a full slip fabric collar, which in the course of one walk cut into the dogs throat. They are difficult to use with a long coat dog and most people need to be shown how and it takes a good few weeks to get it correct, it is easier on a short coat, but I still maintain that if the dog pulls it is not possible to release the links quick enough to avoid harm to the dog. Sorry if you thought I was being nasty or abusive to you, it was not my intention and I am sure you under estimate yourself when it comes to the skill you have in using the full slip chain. But they do need a lot of care if the dog is not to be hurt.
Use them myself in the show ring but replace with a fabric half check the moment I come out, as I feel I can’t control my dog safely on a full slip chain without the risk of hurting him, true it is finer than one would use for walking but it would still damage him if he lunged and being fine is more difficult to release.
By Miasmum
Date 10.10.03 10:12 UTC
No problem. Like i said, we all have good and bad experiences with our dogs and their equipment. Its always going to be a subject of debate whether or not to use one. Some swear by them, others hate them. If i had the option with Kuma i would use a head halti, unfortunately he if too afraid of anything being placed over his head. My bitch wears a head collar no bother, it depends on the dog i suppose.
I'll probably see you around in here.
Take care.
P.S I hope you find a solution to Mia's pulling.
By LlMEY
Date 10.10.03 11:58 UTC
Well said Miasmum! This thread has been an example of how to work things out in a mature and sensible way exploring different ideas. It is all too easy when using print without any body/facial expression to give the wrong impression. The more and wider ideas the better in my opinion, I always find it useful when someone explains their reasoning. We don't have to always agree but we should respect others right to disagree.
It's always disappointing to see a potentially good thread drop into a flame, thank you Miasmum and Jackie for showing how a thread debate should be done!
Regards Dave
By mandatas
Date 10.10.03 19:47 UTC
Hi Miasmum,
There are a few dogs out there who will not tolerate a headcollar, I agree. Obviously the choke chain works for you, and you have had good results, I would guess you have used it responsibly.
I see many people (luckily much less now-a-days) with a choke chain on and their dogs are still pulling like a chain, choking themselves, the chain is on the wrong way round and also people constantly severly jerking their dogs around. This is the sort of thing I am trying to stop, people like yourself who have used it well and had good success are the exeption to the rule unfortunately.
I didn't intend to offend anyone, but CC are a real BIG hate of mine, along with electric collars. :(
manda
x
By Miasmum
Date 10.10.03 22:20 UTC
Its the only option for Kuma i'm afraid. I too would never use an electric collar, no matter how bad the dog.
I only use the chain for the noise it makes, never for the choking action as many people do. I actually took Kuma to the RAF police dog handelers so that they could show me how to use the check chain effectively and safely. I did an awful lot of research into the collar before i used it.
If i see anyone i know with a check chain i ask them whether they have been shown, if not i show them how to use it properly. I do try to educate people on the correct use of the collar so as to reduce the amount of dogs being seriously hurt through inproper use.
I have been lucky to have access to pro dog handlers who are more than happy to help with large dogs such as Kuma. I am that happy with them i leave him there with them when i go away.
Sorry but RAF dog handlers are just that handlers not trainers the RAF dogs along with all other HMF dogs are trained before the handlers get them. Having seen forces dogs from the different forces(does anyone remember the TV program that showed a forces dog handler nearly pulling the dogs head off he had just been allocated because he did not know how to "handle"the dog "Fred"properly) I would be dubious as to whether I would ask them for guidance. The essence of good heelwork & ergo walking correctly on lead is that the dog knows what you where you want it to be & wants to be there too. I dont mean obedience heelwork, I mean walking at heel
I always train my dogs off lead at home & this means you have to work harder at keeping the dog beside you, but the reward is that when the dog is on the lead it never learns to pull as you already have the control from the off lead training
I was taught this many many years ago by a policeman who was a dog trainer
but not a police dog handler as he did not over 30 years ago approve of chokers for training dogs & his force insisted as they still do ojn their use. His GSD's were better trained & able to do police work than the dogs the police use. He refused to apply for the dog section even though it meant he never progressed beyond sargeant
JMHO & those who continue to use chokers may very well be right.
By Miasmum
Date 11.10.03 08:40 UTC
Exactly Moonmaiden.
It is them who handle the dog at all times, therefore, they would know how to use the choke chain safely and effectively as they are favoured by them on this particular camp. Than is the very reason i went to them for advice on using the chain. Had i wanted help in taining the dog then i woul have gone to a TRAINER! Did i say that i had him trained by an RAF dog handler? I don't think so.
Well the RAF handlers I have seen handling their work & not the demonstration dogs left a lot to be desired. The heavy use of the the choker was very evident, their excuse these were the work dogs ! I didn't like the GSD's being referred to as Alsatians either They did not convince me that they were suitable to have any of our rescue GSD's for training as work or demonstration dogs-pity because the trainers at the centre use motivation techniques. I had been asked to go by them as we had some nice young GSD's in rescue that were suitable for working homes. Fortunately the dogs are now in good working homes with the prison & police were the dog & handler train together & the handlers put the work in rather than been allocated a trained dog.
Just as a test I "lent"one of the handlers my fully trained BC. He did not have a clue how to handle a dog without the choker & being able to "correct"the dog physically not so much as an RAF dog handler as someone in the RAF with a trained dog. Odd my dog has been handled by young children, obedience handlers, WT handlers & a police handler from the Netherlands who was getting a BC as a specializt search dog none of them needed to "correct"him. The polce handler went on to train his BC without the use of a choker, the first dog he had ever trained without one My dog is WT/Obedience & SAR trained
But as you are a choker fan fine but they are not suitable for all breeds no matter how skilled you are at using them. I still consider that they are not suitable for general use
You are exceedingly touchy Miasmum , I have noticed on several threads that if someone disagrees with what you have said , you get up in arms very quickly :) It really isn't necessary ...the Forum is for exchange of views ..that is to say ..you get your say ..and then others get theirs ;) Not everyone will agree with you , that is what makes it a discussion surely?
I think you need to take your time answering posts , read your replies before pressing POST ... :)
HTH
Melody :)
Quite right Melody - a 'discussion' is :"examination of a matter by arguments for and against; debate;a disquisition in which a subject is treated from different sides". The whole point of a discussion is to have more than one opinion!
I remember being taught that the best, most sensible debates occur when people 'argue' against their personal beliefs, because then they really have to use their brains to think of the logical reasons to support something, and to lay their opinions aside.
:)
By Miasmum
Date 11.10.03 11:34 UTC
I have no qualms with other peoples opinions. When people begin to move away from the point i am making and the point to the discussion is lost is when i get annoyed. People didn't realise that i had sought advice from people using the CC regularly so that i could use it correctly. When i mentioned this it was then said that the RAF dog handlers leave a lot to be desired. I simply asked for their help, it was given and as a result i have been able to use the CC both safely and effectively. I agree that the GSD's used as forces police dogs are not always handled and treated with the respect they deserve but that was not the point of the discussion.
There is no point posting when you are annoyed.
There is no point in getting annoyed ..it is the internet for Heavens sake :)
By Miasmum
Date 11.10.03 11:45 UTC
Okay, maby i do jump a little too quickly. Do you blame me? Some people ramble on all sorts of rubbish, straying from the path of the discussion. This is of absolutely no help tot he poster now is it? My haste isn't of much help sometimes either i must admit but at least i try to stick to the point of the discussion (other than just now that is).
Because people *ramble* in your opinion , it doesn't mean to say other may not find it interesting though ;)
I simply suggest that IF a post irritates you , take a few minutes before replying ..or better still , don't reply to that particular post. There is no rule that you HAVE to reply to any post. Many's the time I have deliberately NOT answered a post because I knew I would lose my rag ..and it just isn't worth it :)
HTH
Melody :)
By Miasmum
Date 11.10.03 11:54 UTC
Well after reading through the discussion again, the poster will be trying a half check. Discussion ended by the look of it.
By bullmastiff fan
Date 11.10.03 12:06 UTC
Hello. I don't want to offend anyone and please don't kill me, but the OP said her dog doesn't like to wear a collar, harness, etc. Do you think she will LIKE a choke chain? My fist Bullmastiff didn't like anything either but he was choking on the choke chain(!) and after insisting a lot he accepted the halti and was the only thing that stopped him pulling without hurting him. I heard there's also a body halti?
Val xxxx
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