its already hapened keith, in the dog press the dog thats had its award taken from it at border union wasnt the only one of the breed tested, another was too, but they accepted the ammount of hairspray on it could of been from someone else, so it was allowed,

We all know that hairspray, talc, chalk and lots of other things are used on show dogs. I saw someone at a show covering an Akita in talc. I presumed that a breed like that would have nothing done with it. We go in the ring against dogs that are covered in hairspray but what do we do? Ours are never going to look as finished as the sprayed ones. Some judges don't care but most will prefer the immaculate ones. We all know that the show game is crooked both judging and exhibiting so a bit of hairspray is a long way down the line in things that need to be stopped. How do some dogs have huge coats? If a dog lives a 'normal' life it gets dirty and it coat suffers from exercise in the wet, runnning through bushes and playing, so are these dogs with huge coats kept in crates most of the day to protect the coat? The lack of muscle on some would infer that. Until human nature can be changed the whole situation will go on. My dogs are pets that live with us in the house they are not a comodity to futher my ambitions and greed. They will stay with us to their death not be re-homed when past their sell by date.

Question: Why do the trade stands sell all this paraphernalia for grooming if we are not allowed to use it???? Someone must buy these products as these businesses are not going down the pan. In fact many seem to be expanding!!!!!

Their answer would be that you're allowed to use anything you like, as long as it isn't in the coat when the dog is being judged. Very grey area, in my opinion!
:)

Quite agree with you there. This random testing has been around for so many years now though and only a handful of people have been caught. I can remember about 20 years ago I was showing Black Min Poodle at Builth....he had won post grad and he was tested. Thankfully it came back negative.

A poodle may have a little hair spray on, but as the KC has banned the use of hair spray, it is still cheating. Rules are to be followed, not broken. We must address all rules and break none. There are other forms of cheating that affect the dogs in the ring, such as double handling. Is one form worse than the other; no! They are all the same! It isn't fair for people that follow the rules and loose out to cheats.
As for the dogs with huge coats; it's not fair to say that all dogs with huge coats are kept in crates. Yes some may be, but not all. The people who treat an animal like this are showing to fill gaps in their lives and not for the sport. My Standard poodle is not the most muscular in the world but she is walked 6 miles every day and lives in the house with me. Some dogs are different from others. I would be very upset if I was accused of keeping my dog in a crate just because she had a lack of muscle and a big coat.

Think Keith, that is the trouble with a forum like this we can't be personal so we generalise and do not always remember to clarifie by saying (most, some, IMO, etc) Sure that well all know that people are different and nothing applies to all.

I was not meaning that all poodles with lots of coat are crated. I only meant to cause offence if this is what someone does!! I was trying to point out other things that people will do to win. Winning is all in some exhibitors minds and they will go to extreme lengths to win. It has been reported in the dog press recently about a poodle that had chewing gum put in its coat and another that has been poisoned. One exhibitor saw out of the corner of her eye someone putting something into her dogs water she acted quickly and cleaned this dish etc. This is the owner of a top winning dog. As Keith says there are lots of things like double handling etc that need to be sorted. Personally I would be happy to show poodles in lamb trim (you can't hide the faults then) but that is not the way it is at the moment so with regard to hairspray if we can't beat 'em do we join 'em?????

Ummm... am I being stupid here but how come when the Judge runs his hands over a 'sprayed' dog he doesn't feel it? If the dog is 'chalked' how come the clouds don't give it away... ???

Ok with the chalk maybe the excess is brushed out to avoid the clouds... how about in umm suspect breeds the judge has 1 black cotton glove on when he feels the dogs conformation...

How long does it take a steward/official to walk round the benching areas of suspect breeds and take a look at what is happening during pre-show grooming....

I REALLY am at a loss... not long ago there was a long thread on double handling and other forms of cheating.... it is very apparent to this newbie shower just over a month away from their first show that every man and their dog [feeble pun] that is in the slightest bit experienced in showing KNOWS this goes on... startling to me is that it seems it goes on in PLAIN view. Some are cheating... it is known that some are cheating... that must include at least some officials - officials seem to turn a blind eye... WHY? In my opinion an official who turns a blind eye when they know a rule is being broken is as guilty as the rule breaker.

I can very much undertstand why an honest exhibitor wouldn't want to get involved, and puts up with it - inconvenience of being next to a sloppy benched exhibitor, or maybe the process of having to lay down a bunch of cash to make a complaint... maybe if there was faith in action more would be prepared to risk some cash and not be worried about repercussions of umm 1 kind or another.

I love this board and got a lot of info and advice, but have found my jaw drop at some of the things I have read on this and other subjects.

I don't think I will get this quote right, but hope I get the sense of it...

"When good people stay quiet the evil prosper.... "

Sigh... I sound all bitter and haven't even shown yet LOL... well, am still VERY much looking forward to my first show and my tiny video camera goes with me everywhere and any interesting shots I will find a bit of web space to show them ;)

regards Dave