I've just been reading this weeks Our Dogs and there is an article in it about an owner being fined after random testing found chalk and hairspray in a dogs coat. I went to an open show the other week and the woman next to me was using hairspray on her poodle. She did not try to hide the tin, it was in full show on her grooming table, is this common practice to use spray even though you shouldn't?

No it isn't common practise ..and no , you cannot smell the hairspray or see the clouds of chalk every time you go to a show and stand near to certain breeds ;)

:D :D :D

Melody

OK I'll stick my neck out, some poodle exhibitors are very selfish the seem to think that whilst they are waiting to go into the ring it is fine to do the trimming they should have done at home and to cover any exhibit within range with water and then hair spray. It pi**es me off, to have my dogs feet full of someone else’s hair and their lungs full of some one else’s spray, but unless I feel so irritated to complain to the KC and put my money down then there is nothing I can do about it, and sorry yes Mel with that particular breed it is common practice.

I think Mel was talking tongue in cheek Jackie :D

Good, I won't have Mel on my neck then Sara. Just all the others with breeds that are highly! Prepared.

I'm sorry, but if they have to spray their dogs coats with hairspray doesn't this mean that their coats are incorrect!! I've seen people with Pomeranian's at shows with talc and hairspray and when you have the same breed and the smell of the stuff comes over, many a time I've nearly choked on it. I feel sorry for people with asthma who have to be near these owners.

In Pom's if your dog has the correct harsh texture there's absolutely no need to use these products!! I'm glad that I'm now into Spanish Water Dogs where you just wash and go. At least with our breed when you are put up it's on the merit of the dog and not how it was groomed!!! Though even now there's people taking in groomed Spanish and to me these people should be banned too, as no brushes or combs should go anywhere near their coats.

:rolleyes:

Very much in agreement Jackie, I attended one show where this woman clipped,trimmed brushed,tweased then clipped again at God only knows what- I couldn't see any improvement being made, this performance went on indefinatley, I felt sorry for the poor Dog! It bordered on the obsessional (some people pay to have therapy for such behaviour) All these beautyfying procedures should have been done at home, I'm maybe a little bias as my darlings got short hair but when you are trying to negotiate around rings especially indoors these people are b****y pests.
She

Just come back from a small show & was chatting to a couple of poodle people whilst they were grooming miniature & standard poodles. The mini people had a huge can full of hair spray which they "fixed"their dogs topknots with so that they were solid-yuck-the lady with the standards didn't need to as her dogs topknots didn't need it. The mini people said it was about time they could use anything they like to make their dogs look good :o & told me to tidy my cavaliers ears & feet :( :rolleyes:

Cavalier breed standard does not allow any trimming ! but there are people at every CH show with dogs with "thinned & shaped"feet but they are of course not trimmed lol

Still beat the poodles with my young boy who was also best cavalier & best toy & in the last 4 for BIS complete with his "slippers"on his feet(feathering-lol)

I've been near the schnauzers when they have been chalking & using hairspray one ruining a new coat i had with the chalk spray

you want to have a shar-pei-----------which are often benched next to SHIT-ZU-SCHNAUZER-POODLES!!! they put up tables inbetween the benches and yes --ive seen-smelt and actually been sprayed, :( -i dont care a bit if they use stuff BUT!!!! its hard lines on the breeds around that are caged and cant get away from it, or are in the line of fire---now that hets to me and i have had words about it, i expect to be able to leave my dog on a bench without it having to breathe in all the crap thats getting used,

To Jackie H: What a selfish view! It is impossible, in today’s show ring, to take a poodle straight into a ring with no final grooming. When you brush the coat it can stretch leaving tufts of hair all over the dog. I know that, to non-poodle owners, this seems excessive but it is the one thing that can make the difference between a 1st and 2nd in the class. They all want to do well and the benchmark is total perfection when it comes to coat condition and appearence. As for your dog's feet and the fur; just bad house keeping on the part of the offender. They should be made to keep their work place tidy. If it was out side the show ground, they would be fined for littering.
When was the last time you saw someone at a championship show cover their dog with hair spray? I believe, at least, 95% of poodle exhibitors have understood the rules and follow them. For the few offenders of the rules, which exist in all breeds, you seem to attack the many that follow them. This is not on! My suggestion is to report the offenders to the show committee who should be able to act upon your disapproval. There are cheats in all aspects of competition and they should be pointed out at the time of the incident and not after.

Keith, I have know objections to final grooming, but it is not me who is selfish when I have to put up with several people taking up space for a table and cage and trolley room for a std Poodle and the clippings from said poodles for 3 hours and the water all over the floor and the hair spray and the 4 letter words because I want to take my prepared at home dog out of a door for a pee. Selfish me, think again.

You keep talking about Hair spray! When was the last time you saw this being used, on a poodle, at a championship show? Why haven't you mentioned Bichon's or any other dog? Poodles demand a high level of grooming; more than most breeds but it is the choice of the owner as is it yours to choose a breed. I could go on all day about it, but as long as the breed is recognized by the KC, it is here to stay.
Not sure I know why a poodle exhibitor would use water. This would only spoil the look of the coat. It must be the water they give the dogs to drink. I can't believe that the silly poodles slop their water while they drink. Are you sure that it's only poodle exhibitors that are to blame for your objections. I think your argument would be best addressed to all in asking for respect for fellow exhibitors and keeping the benching area tidy.
For any groomer taking three hours to finish a dog is madness. I have to agree with you on this. They are fanatical or have gone completely mad!
Keith:)

About a two weeks ago at darlington A large can of Elnet hairspray was used on a black standard & I had forgotten my camera. Sorry but if the rules say no spray them no spray should be used. But there are others who use stuff that is not allowed as well like the schnauzer people who got caught. I see Cavalier people trimming their dogs & using whitening under their eyes to remove the tear stains

There is one little point that we all seem to be missing here, if people do use hair spray on their dogs coats how can they claim with all honesty to be animal lovers, the majority of cosmetic products as far as I am aware are tested first on animals- often dogs. Feel free to put me straight if I am wrong in this line of thinking.
Also can someone explain what people use to whiten the underneath of a dogs eyes? (being the owner of a low maintenance short haired breed) I find this strange. Would the same people inflict this procedure on their children to improve appearance?
A bit of food for thought!
She

Sorry I don't know what it is as I don't use it & don't associate with those who do it looks like dried chalk but it isn't as they have to mix it together by shaking the container-seen them do it. My cavaliers don't have the problem of runny eyes , the same people can be seen trimming their dogs feet in the grooming area.

I personally saw a very well known exhibitor of Poodles using hair spray at a match for Best in Show Winners. I wasn't the only one to see it and although the officials were told nothing was done.

Mind there was a huge cheer when the dog was beaten in one of the rounds.

So sorry Keith it does happen and regularly.

Although I will agree it it not only poodle exhibitors who are at fault, setting lotion is another one used in spray form on some terriers leg hair.

Sadly Keith, I'm not talking Champ shows, I'm talking open, yes to some people it is that important that you can make other peoples day out miserable and yes water what they were doing with it I have know idea, the handlers/groomers were not the sort of people you would start up small talk with, 4 letter words being the level of their conversation. Not talking one show here it is my experience over a number of years. I now move if I find one of the people from the grooming world set up next to me, if necessary to the car park.

I'm glad that people have come out and mentioned other breeds. It's not fair for the cheats to get away with this. I'm shocked at the owners using hair spray at champ shows. They are playing a stupid game and risk more than they imagine. Not only will they get a ban/fine, they risk the whole show world knowing that they are cheats. Pity them, as it's only a matter of time!
Really interested to know who it was that was using the hair spray. May be you could email me as I love to hear gossip. (Don't we all, that why most of us are on this forum). If they were well known, and the officials did nothing, then you could put it down to politics. Some thing that the show world could do with out.
As for the 'four letter words', shame on them. People forget that it is a family sport with many juniors taking part. Children are the futre of the game and it is upto the adult exhibitors to show sporting conduct inside and outside the ring.
I am very interested in the testing conducted by the KC. Do they take random dogs or do they take a sample from all the dogs in the breed. This second mentioned would be better as creepy crawlies have a nack of hiding in cracks in the ground.
Keith.

Sorry Keith not into gossip, you'll have to remain in the dark on that one:-)

and yes you are probably right it almost certainly was political!!

As for the children, I personally think the children are far more sporting than the adults and could show them all a thing or two. ;-)

Jayne

[deleted]

You must have second sight then Keith, as I didn't say what year, what area and whether the BIS were Champ Show or Open. LOL LOL LOL :-D

My feelings are that you have to feel sorry for the cheats, if thats the only way they feel they can win, then someone somewhere went wrong in their upbringing. ;-)

Jayne

Sorry Jayne,
I got your your post crossed with that of Moonmaiden, who pointed out time and venue.

I don't know the name of the exhibitor at Darlington but have seen them around the champ shows a lot-there were hair spray cans on most of the grooming tables of all sizes of poodles

The testing is done on BOB & other top winners randomly-had my beardie Champion tested years ago when it first started, but as they could only do a test from where it is not visible(at least in Beardies then it was as the breed standard does not allow trimming)I couldn't understand why she was selected-hardly likely to dye/spray/chalk her tummy area lol-came back negative-no surprise as i only use natural products & was one of Doreen P's 1st customers

I was told today , all be it second hand info that a dog had it's CC removed from Darlington for products in the coat. Not my breed.

I was told by reliable person so hope it is correct.

One of the unfortunate things today is and this is just an example but if you compete against dogs full of product and yours doesn't have any , you are almost or MAY be at a disadvantage right away. Rightly or wrongly...

I never ever chalk my dogs bodies ever, when I had strip then out the chalk is on my finger tips only, I do their legs only and brush it out as I think chalk can harm the skin but standing next to a chalked dog makes mine look less white when in fact it is natural.

It all makes for a good debate..

Pam

Pam I think it is cheating, and it would be best if it were stopped, dogs have been disqualified but whilst it is the norm in some breeds it will continue. What happens in other breeds is really nothing to do with me, but when the way people behave, intrudes on the enjoyment of others at a show it becomes everyone’s concern.

I collect books and have some from 1950s it is funny to see the trends change from year to year..

I may be wrong in saying this but I think it is worse in the states..

Pam

The Aussies are generally benched beside the OES at Champshows - and I get a definite whiff of Johnsson baby talc in the air going past them:D :D :D

Margot

I don't think anyone could add anyhting to a Staffords coat. She says innocently :D

Karen

hi Pam, dont know about any CCs being removed - I think it would be a bit early as it would have to go to committee etc, but there was coat testing at Darlington - more thanb 1 breed, and I know that Cockers were one of those tested. It was apparently a 'random ' testing, taking certain placed dogs from pre determined breeds/classes.

Someone commented that spray etc is more prevelant in the USA - all sorts of extreme presentation, including bleaching and dying, are more prevelant in lots of parts of the world. I think it is pretty much against regs. all over the dog showing world, but an official blind eye is turned in many countries. I know that on the shows where we appear with Terriers we always hope we are no where near the westies if we have black dogs as the clouds of chalk are not condusive to shiny black coat! Of course, chalk, if well brushed out, is allowed. It is substances remaining in the coat which are prohibited.

Somone commented above that they think 'at the show' finishing and trimming is wrong - it should all have been completed at home. Well, in some heavily groomed breeds the extra finish you can get from "on the day" final preperation make all the difference between a tidy, clean dog, and a superbly presented one. Of course, people should give consideration to those benched around them , which does not always happen, but we often have to finish at shows, and if a dog is travelling to be shown by one of us it almost always requires one of those last minute preparations. As long as grooming mess is cleaned up I dont see the problem , and it is certainly not against regulations. This is one of those area I much prefer the USA scene - bathing and drying point facilities available at shows, bliss!
bye
Gwen

Gwen, I have know objection to finishing but 2 or 3 hours of trimming does not fall under the term finishing. Of course we all want a dog to look its best as it goes into the ring, and the snipping of the odd piece of hair is fine. But I can't speak for Champ shows as I am on a different day but at open shows they arrive early set up a grooming station and start work even if they are not in the ring for several hours, and every one apart from have little room to move have to put up with clippings, water and hair spray to say nothing about abuse you get should you need to open a door any where near to let your dog relive themselves.

I have no problems with finishing at shows, but I do wish that exhibitors would think of the long suffering committee after the show and clear up their mess themselves.

We often spend half and hour or more after one of our Shows sweeping up the hair and it if it is done outside, chasing it as it blows in the wind, not a lot of fun after a full days work.

If we don't clear up the showground we use, charges us for the pleasure.

Another gripe of mine is exhibitors who pick up the poop in a plastic bag and then dump it under their car instead of the bins provided, and then drive off squashing it everywhere. Not a lot of fun clearing that up I can tell you, and it has to be cleared as in the plastic bag it will never disappear.

Jayne
:-( :-(

Jayne ,

>>> Another gripe of mine is exhibitors who pick up the poop in a plastic bag and then dump it under their car instead <<<

People never cease to amaze me...

Pam

HI Gwen.

Can't remember the exact comment I was told but it was a quote from a Kennel club representative I THINK. Hence the reason I do not want to say the breed as not 100% sure of the truth myself. If it is indeed true it will no doubt be more common news soon.

I try to do most of my preperation at home and then just the finishing touches at the show.. their is no way I could arrive at a show and just take the dog out the box and walk in the ring.. my goodness the thought of it :-) Westies with dirty feet and faces.. I have to say it does cause a giggle at the side of the ring if someone has a well chalked dog and it shakes..:-)

without a doubt some breeds with longer coats need a going over and final preperation..

I agree also that the USA with their grooming areas is great it keeps the breeds seperate and would certainly stop any problems with other exhibitors being gassed out with product. We are certainly lagging behind with this idea..

I can imagine how frustrating it must be being benched with lovely black shinny coats next to us.. I will need to remember and have a peek who is next to us at my next show.. if you see some stressed woman looking around you will know it is me :-)

BFN Pam

Some people at these shows have wonderfully groomed and beautified dogs, but could have spent a bit longer themselves getting ready. (sorry if I'm being a bit bitchy). It just amazes me how time they spend grooming their dog when they could take a look at themselves. I suppose I'm lucky having a short haired dog who seems to think rolling in smelly stuff enhances the appearance of her coat!!!!

Here here sarahl !! :p

It's a dog show not Miss world.

Yes I know it is. But if you're showing a dog when you look like you've just got out of bed and lovely greasy hair but your dog looks and smells wonderful, don't you think it's a bit laughable!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It depends who's being judged, Sarah - the dog or the handler?! ;)

Well I do my best to complement my dog and as a courtesy to the judge, mind you it is not an easy job these days, I take a dim view if the judge has not made some attempt too. Most do, but you get the occasional one who looks as if they have just come in from walking the dogs or cleaning the kennel. Think all exhibitors should try to be neat and clean, fashion does not come into it but suitability should.

My pet hates with judges – perfume (mostly men and aftershave or cologne) - heavy jewellery (mostly women) – High heels or spiky heels (always women) – big or strange headgear (both sexes?)

My pet hates with fellow exhibitors – smoking next to my bench – sleeveless vests males – sleeveless vests exposing hairy armpits and aggressive tattoos all sexes – unsuitable heels near my dogs feet – very short shorts (male) that make me lose my concentration & female that make the judge ditto.

With you on the female pet hate Jackie, I try never to stand next to anyone who has a waist line, now that I'm in the menopausal years and my waist line is rapidly doing a disappearing act I think they should all be made to wear a bin liner..:D:D:D

I agree with you on the perfume and hats. They can really put your dog out of his stride. A funny thing happened to a judge at a show I went to. The judge was wearing a large leather hat, which looked like 'Croc Dundee' style. When he bent down to examine a lab, the lab grabed the hat and wouldn't give it back. This was very funny.
I also hate incorrect dress at a show. Some people think its' a trip down the beach. I have seen a man, not in UK, in the ring with tight red shorts, yellow running vest and running shoes showing a rotty. If any of you had have seen this, you would have died with laughing. The judge just looked and gave a funny shake of his head.

Talking of heels, did anybody see the gundog group at Darlington? Did you look at the judges and people around the ring? I'd say 75% were trying to stifle (spelling again) their laughter. Then there was a bloke doing the splits as he stood his dog. I've never enjoyed watching a show before as I did this one:d

Always find the Yorkie ring worth a visit. ;)

Gwen,

Still not heard if what was said is right or wrong.

I did see that a BOB was withdrawn at Border Union. Maybe this was the one as it sounds very similar to what I was told and could be what the original poster mentioned.

It is on our dogs website and wouldhave been in the issue.

Pam

Here's an interesting question. What if a dog, next to you, was sprayed with hair spray and in the process some landed on your dog. Your dog is tested and traces are found. Where would you stand. It's only a matter of time before this happens, don't you think?

Would think it does happen, but on the topknot (for want of a better word) they spray quite close, sure it must be clear to the judge that it is done. Have heard it said that the hair will not stay in place without. Don't know if this is true but perhaps there should be a change in the hair styles that are used in the ring if this is true, or if it is the norm then it should be allowed so everyone knows where they stand, seem unfair that people feel forced to break the rules. Wish they would just keep the hairdressing a bit more to themselves.

Once was stood next to a lady at the ring side who was trying to achieve a JW for her dog and it was when there had to be at least 3 dogs in the class. Anyway the said dog won Junior and Post Grad and if he managed Open he was home and dried. Well when she went into the ring for Open there was only her and one other in the ring so she yelled to her partner to bring the dog that was in the cage, he got the dog out and took it into the class, still in it's curlers or what ever they are called. Laugh the judge gave it to the dog with the rags in it's hair, can't swear to it but I think she winked at the steward. The owner of the JW seeking dog was furious.

There is a clip, for poodles, that has been recognized in America. This is a much shorter trim but I think its only allowed if the dog has a hunting ticket. (Not 100% sure on that). It is based on the continental trim and is more in favor to the original hunting poodle.
The top knot will not stay in place if is not sprayed. It will fall and I have to back comb the hell out of my dogs fur to try and get it to stay up. I was in a show, while abroad, and it was my first show in that country. I never used any hair spray on the dog and was placed second in the group. I was told that the judge, who was from Australia, said that I should have used hair spray to make the top knot stand up and make the neck seem longer. I was upset by this and a little peed off. I thick it's hard for us poodle exhibitors to compete when the judges do little to enforce the regulations. It is against the show rules in Aus' and they know the poodles are covered in spray, but they don't bother to question them. I'm sure it's the same in UK.
I feel bad for the lady tiring to obtain the JW. She must have cried when the dog with the wrappers beat her dog.
Keith:)

Wrappers is that what they are called, well the lady in question had brought the other dog so she could make the numbers up if when she looked at the catalogue the class numbers were short. What she said was 'dam' I will have to forget to day and try again tomorrow, so I guess this junior dog would have to repeat the performance the next day just to have a JW after his name. Hay ho such is vanity.

Glad the KC has changed the rules as it appeared some dogs were being over shown in order to get the magic JW, and others who should have been at home shown to make the numbers up, more a credit to the exhibitors stamina and their bank balance than the quality of the dog.

Another aspect of trying for the JW is watching a very lame and in pain dog being made to show to help it,s litter brother get points at an open show the poor dog was entered simply to make sure of numbers in the class as well as an inferior kennel mate, And if i had been judging i would have told the exhibitor to withdraw the lame dog it was dreadful standing on the outside of the ring having to watch the poor dog, all for the sake of a point