Can anyone help? Is this allowed?

We were at a show today and this happened....... There were three puppies in as unbeaten but there was only two puppy classes. On asking how I was told that the exhibitor who won the junior class was a puppy but they missed their puppy class due to being late (although judging had been delayed)

I didnt think that it was accepted practice cos the exhibit who went in junior had not competed against the other puppies. But it went on to get BP.

Just wondering really cos it created a stir round the ring!

Thanks

The decision is the KC's. The judge, show, committee & ring steward have to let the dog compete & then when the KC get the marked up catalogue the will make the decision

The dog could be disqualified

I think, though I'm not certain, it would be considered okay for the three to compete for BP because they were all three unbeaten (I'm assuming there were separate dog and bitch puppy classes?). If the animal that won Junior was a puppy (under 12 months) then it would have been entitled to compete for BP even if it hadn't been entered in a Puppy class.
:)

You cannot withdraw to remain unbeaten but because it missed an EARLIER class it was not unbeaten AT THAT TIME! Lets face it, you do not need to enter puppy, you could just enter junior and still qualify for beat puppy.

Regards, John

Have just looked in the red book & the dog must be allowed to compete if the owner wants it too & then it's up to the KC. If it gets picked up which it should do if the secretary & judge mark up the results correctly then the dog may be disqualified but the officials at the show cannot make that decision.

But what rule has been broken, Moonmaiden?

Basically missing the class is treated the same as withdrawing but if the owner can explain why they may allow the win to stand but thats down to the KC. It happened to me at a Ch show the bitch was in Puppy & Novice & missed Puppy because they were simply late. When it came to Best Puppy Bitch she won & beat my bitch. Then when the results got to the KC the bitch was disqualified & my bitch awarded the win. They did the same at another show, but that day my bitch beat her for BPB & got BP as well.

Edited to add have put the red book away & it's too late to dig it out again :)

I never knew that - I know that if you arrive late the dog may not be transferred to another class, but I assumed you could still compete in other classes for which the dog was entered.
:)

Thanks for all the replies.

Where do you get a copy of the rules from? Am quite interested in reading up now, find out what else is or isn't allowed! Im sure time will tell what will happen, cant wait to find out at future shows.

Anyway Ive had a great day, and now must sleep.

You can get the Year Book (Red Book) for the KC and very boreing it is to. Think they have now brought out a smaller one just with the show rules in check it outhere

Thanks Jackie will look into getting a year book.

This one F(1)20

Dont know the finer points of missing class [$ arriving late, but certainly have entered my 8 months old pups in Junior classes @ Ch. shows this summer & gone on to beat puppy class winners for BP ])

Well done Sam, dont get me wrong, I have no ill feeling to the puppy or owners involved, only interested as it seemed to cause such a great deal of interest, resentment and confusion at the show, there were many people there who have been in the show world for years who had different opinions, I just wondered if anyone here knew. (I am beginning to feel that the puppies that were beaten have a issue with it rather than anything else but thats the show scene for you I guess)

If it had just been entered in Junior (often happens if exhibitor is showing two mpups, that the more mature is put in a higher class) then it would be entitled to compete. In this case though it may be disqualified if the KC pick up on it as it missed it's first class.

A few years ago we had a puppy who was doing very well in numerically large breed, she had won Puppy at most to the Champ. shows that year. At a West Country Champ. Show a little group of "grumblers" entered their puppies in a variety of other classes - Junior, novice etc.
Our pup won puppy bitch and when the challenge for best puppy bitch was called - in they trooped - 3 other unbeaten puppies! (i.e. not beaten by another puppy) although none had won their class.
The Judge a well respected breed specialist - took one look round the ring and dismissed all expect the minor puppy and ours without moving or looking at them again, served them right, it was just bad manners and very unsporting. It has happened to me at an Exemption show as well, the judge did move the other puppy and then threw it out - much to the applause of the other exhibitors.
It is often just a ploy to be seen in the challenge except where someone is exhibiting two puppies, then it does make sense.

But there is no rule that says a puppy must be entered in a puppy class. If the owner wanted to enter it in Open then that is ok. (Who knows it might get 3rd and get a stud book number!!!). It makes sense to enter in an age regulated class where and when appropriate as they become ADULTS after that then forever until eligible for Veteran.

No there is no rule, but unless you know the entry will very poor or you have a numerically very small breed and quality is low, it is pretty silly or pretty desperate. I once saw a "top breeder" enter a very inferior puppy in every class except Minor Puppy (no Veteran) to try to get a Cruft Qualifier. The puppy had been sold presumably on the promise of it being "good enough to qualify for Crufts" and these particular buyers had held the breeder to her word. Said "top breeder" stood like a lemon in every class with the seen dogs and was overlooked every time. Very Silly - she never did it again. If a dog is good - what is the rush it will make it in its own good time and you can only enter so many dogs for Crufts. I like to see sportsmanship not pot-hunting - but then I am an optimist!

But don't we all show for fun, surely what others do it up to them. Yes, of course, it is nice to win, and sure we do our best to get points or qualifications according to how much awards mean to us. To some it means a good deal, to me well it would be nice but what others do, as long a the dog is not being badley treated, then it is up to them, really can't understand why you would find it so upsetting. What you discribe is the sort of thing done by a newcomer and the usual response is to point out the person why it is not a good itea. By your own statement you do ok, so whats the gripe.

"really can't understand why you would find it so upsetting."

Never said I was upset and I have no gripe - I have never lost out any one behaving in that way - I was pointing out (in respose to the question!) that is usually counter productive althought permitted within the rules .

"usual response is to point out the person why it is not a good itea"

Though that was what I was doing.

Why so aggresive?

What did I say that caused you to make this statement (Why so aggresive?) Did not think I was, a bit surprised that someone who was obviously not only experienced but also successful should be worried what others were doing, particularly when it is well within the rules. It takes time to work out the best way to achieve the end you want, but we can either make suggestions or let them do their own thing, I feel no aggression to newcomers or you. Will agree that the old JW was a very poor idea but that was the fault of the KC not the competitors who were trying to win one, and yes I have seen some silly behaviour but it did not bother me personally. If they won then well done, I could follow suit if I was that bothered that they may have more wins than me.

I disagree with you smeagold beagle. I have often entered puppies in a junior or special yearling class...it has nothing whatsoever with being unsporting or anything vaguely similar :(

Finally dug out the KC reg that covers this it is F(1)20 I found it the other night closed the red book & then couldn't find it again :D:D