I've asked this question before in a different post, but I think it got lost somewhere, because I can find it anymore (blond and all that :D)
*deep breath* Anyway, here's the question/problem.
I cant for the life of me get Kyra (12 mth GSD bitch) to retrieve to hand. We're slowly starting to train her to find objects by picking up the scent we give her, which she does with great enthousiasm!! We make it all a big game and she loves it! Until it comes to the point where she actually has to give it up :( I've been at this for about 4 months now, so its not like Im respecting results overnight.
I've tried to lure her back with a treat, but she'll come back then and drop the object about 4 metres away from me.
I've tried to encourage her to follow me by moving away backwards, again she will follow but drop the object.
I'd like her to retrieve to hand, but sofar no luck.
Any tips? (and dont tell me I should have gotten a retriever :P)

I don't know if this will help, but when our young lab (sadly long gone now) wouldn't retrieve to hand, as she came towards me I would send her past me with a big sweep of the arm, and a "Go on!" command. This seemed to take her by surprise, and she stared in amazement as she went past, then I called her to me, and she was so relieved that I wasn't cross with her she came instantly and gave me the dummy straight into my hands!

It may not work for you, but it's worth a try. hope it helps. :)

Oh thanks for that!!
I definately need to try something new, because all Im teaching her now is that its ok to completly ignore me ;)
( I think she's been watching me handle my bf too much :D)

Does she retrieve a ball or frisbee ok? Or is that what you are trying to teach her?
If she retrieves a ball to hand for example, you could try calling every other object 'the ball' !!
Do you have a key phrase, like 'bring it back' ??

You could try attaching a lead to your GSD and reel him/her in. Also try teaching the hold/leave commands so that your dog will learn when to keep the ball in his/her mouth and when to release. The Hold is taught by placing the dog in a sit and tapping under the chin when you say hold - this also helps with being able to get forbidden things off the dog too.

Frustrating isn't it :D You get so far and then hit a brick wall :(
Stop trying to get her to give it up and take a step backwards. If we break the retrieve down it consists of several parts to achieve. Firstly the dog going out to find the article, then the dog picking the article up, the dog returning to the handler with the article and lastly the dog presents the article to the handler and finishes the exercise.
When you have her happily bringing it back to you then move on to the final stage.
I have a similar method to Jeangenie. I stand with my legs apart and encourage the dog to run straight back to me and run straight through my legs carrying the article without stopping. Then I call him back to me and give him loads of cuddles and praise - still not taking the article off him. This gives me a very fast and straight retrieve because the dog anticipates the game continuing by running 'through' me. If I'm doing a 'proper' one lol I'll put my legs together when he gets close and he'll screech to a sit in front of me.
Only when he's happy to come to me with his article will I think about moving on to getting him to give it up to hand :)
Lara x

Missy isn't keen on retreiving (well - she's a Springer, not a Retreiver <G>), and like the others, I've broken it down into the component parts, and we worked on the 'give' bit before we went on to the send away.....I would hold an object in my hands and let her take it from me, and reward her for giving it back..... Then we moved on to just dropping it at my feet, then throwing it small distances, and slowly over a period of weeks, making the distance longer and longer - we're up to about 20' now......

Have you tried teaching the "hold" and "give" as a seperate exercise from retrieve?

I think I posted this for someone recently but if you have not tried it and I have not posted I will try to explain it

Christine

A couple of thoughts for you.

I never use food when training a gundog to retrieve. One of the reasons the risk of dropping the article to get at the titbit.

I treat retrieving as work, not play. Start with the hold. Then sit stays holding. Then recalls holding.

A gundog "Trick" for a dog dropping is, as it gets close turn your back to it, call it up to heel and do a (Short) bit of heelwork.

Try it and see how it goes. Let us know how it's working out, there are answers to all problems if you look hard enough.

Best wishes, John

I don't know why, but all the German Shepherds I have ever had have taken to retrieving like the proverbial duck - I must be lucky I guess!

You would be supprised, I've seen dozens. I even had one of my Labradors I had to teach to retrieve! Usually (but not always) the reason is something we have done at some time when the puppy was very young. The trick is trying to remember what it might have been!!! Something, possibly dangerous which the pup picked up where we spoke loud of rough over? Something somewhere!

Regards, John

I managed to improve Maverick's hold by an unusual method which initially horrified my trainer when she saw it :)

Once she knew what hold meant and would do it, I then wanted her to hold her chin against my stomach so as she was sitting there I dropped a piece of liver into her mouth in front of the dumbell. For some reason she will then sit there for as long as I want her to and only eat it after I have removed the 'bell.

Christine

Wow, thanks for all the tips guys!!
Definately very helpful!!
I'll try the long lead and letting her run past me and teaching her hold and I'll keep you posted!!

Do you do, or are you interested in, obedience work with your dog? There is a great web-site and you can buy videos of the trainer training for different sports/protection/schutzhund etc. I've got one of his videos and he is EXCELLENT
Josh_

Well, being a white GSD, she definately does not have the temperament for Shutzhund, which is one of the main reasons for me to do
obedience with her, so I can get her socialised with people more.
But yes, I'd love to take this obedience further once we've passed the silver course with her. I was thinking more in the direction of
rescue/track dog? Ofcourse I dont know if she'd qualify, but its something I'd love to train her for, if even for personal use.

What's Shutzhund?

Shutzhund was originally set up in Germany and is therefore the German word for "Protection Dog".
Its basically a standard used by police dog trainers as well as privat trainers for dog obedience focussing on
proctection work, eg sleeve work and cornering criminals etc..

Hi Jill

Schutzhund is a competative sport consisting of tracking, obedience and protection work.

For those of you interested here is an article about Shutzhund: http://www.morningstarairedales.com/pg4.html

And for those of you who are even more interested (since Wolfwitch and I both posted foreign websites) you can find out information about the British Schutzhund Association here and details of local training clubs :)

LOl, one of these days I really need to figure out how to make interactive links :)
*hint hint hoping someone will kindly mail/post some instructions*

Click on the 'help' topic above your name and scroll down for instructions :)

Thanks for the replies. I'd never heard of Shutzhund before. It does sound really good and I like hearing about the different sports that dogs can do. I'd never heard of Flyball before I got my b/c and now I've got his name down for it when he's old enough.

www.leerburg.com

He's actually a breeder of german working line GSD's but having worked as a police handler he has gone into training. I bought his "Basic Obedience" video, and it/he is absolutely brilliant. He explains everything in detail but does it in such a simple manner. He showed how his brother taught a mouse to "play basketball" and how breaking each simple step down into small step can be applied to dog training. He explains the different stages of dog training and so much more. In the video there are snipets of a wide veriety of other videos that he has filmed and sells, from Dogs sports like Schutzhund and the French Ring, t working dogs for herding, protection, and specialist subjects like training a narcotics dog and even how to groom your pup!!!!. He isn't the trainer in ALL of the videos, but gets experts around the world.
You can see the list of videos that he sells on the web-site along with training articles equipment etc etc. Have a look, make sure you tell me what you think
Josh_

Thanks for that Josh, I'll will certainly check it out!!
I started this week with trying the retrieve on the long lead, but unfortunately she'd still rather drop the object than
have me take it off her.
So now going completely back to step one, Im not going to take anything off her anymore, but instead teach
her to "hold" first, till I actually give her the "give" command.
I'll keep you all posted ofcourse!! :D

I've just taken a peek at that site, and have serious concerns about some of the advice - mentions of helicoptering, slamming dog's heads into the ground, \(surely this must have been some sort of sick joke???) and to solve the problem of a dog not coming, put it in a down stay, then when it does not come to call, give it a Level 10 correction not just once, but maybe 3 times ....and this Level 10 is really physically nasty for the dog :(

Also the article about clicker training shows no knowledge whatsoever. NO openmindedness there at all.

As you say Josh, there are different trainers on there with different advice, but some of the advice is frankly wicked. Shows no under standing of how dogs learn, but just physically get on top of them and terrify them. I am really angry after reading just a fw of the articles, I am now trying to chill and calm down.

On the positive side, there are some good videos of the ringsports and a book on Malinois :).

I wish he didn't advertise e and prong collars, but then sadly it's not an ideal world. I feel quite depressed now :(

No, actually i feel damn depressed, I am now going out with my gorgeous little Terv to clear my head and try to rid it of the rubbish I have just seen.

Sorry Josh, I'm not angry at you, just at the site. I shoulld be used to it all by now, but I still get affected :(

Lindsay

OH REALLY????!!!! Thats why I recommended the videos and not the articles.
I haven't read his articles. I'd love to take a peak at the articles that you've seen. Which ones were they???????? I dont know too much on clicker training myself but would be deffinately interested in the "come" command. Thats not at all like he explained it in the video. He does sell prong collars but in the video explains that these are hardly ever needed and should never be used by any except for professional trainers, and they never really find the need to use them! He uses check chains but puts more emphasis on positive re-inforcement with tone of voice, and initially, treats.
If feel really bad about recommending the site now!!!!! REALLY REALLY REALLY SORRY!
Josh_

HI Josh

I'm not sure which articles they are, I just clicked on what sounded interesting, but they were on training and behaviour, and attempting a sort of question and answer service. I couldn't read all of it and skimmed some of it. It is very possible that they were written by someone else, but presumably someone who trains in ways he would approve of.

I am sure i also read about putting a prong collaron a pulling young puppy, then when it runs to the end of the lead and yelps with pain, it will learn not to pull. I haven't used one myself, and would never, but people I respect such as Sheila Booth used to recommene them (although not now) and the impression i got is that they must be used with great care, not in the way that their use is described on the site....the Level 10 correction was with a prong collar I think :(

I'm actually quite confused because what you describe in the video isn't at all complementary to what is on the site so not sure what to make of it really.

It's kind of you to say sorry, it's OK, I just sometimes can't bear reading this sort of thing and can't help getting upset about it. I'd actually like to go back and read more, but it's probably better not to.

Best wishes
Lindsay

To be totally honest, I dont care whether he wrote it or not..its on HIS site!!!!!!
To be honest ITS MY FAULT for recommending the site as a whole rather than just the video.
Having seen his video I now see that he uses positive methods to do the initial "training/teaching" stage, but when it comes to the "the dog MUST do the command" stage, he is very forceful, even though he NEVER says to put a prong collar on and give a level 10 correction in the video. Actually, on the video, he refuses to even demonstrate it because of "the effect that it can have on the dog". Apparently these are effective methods when used by the RIGHT type of people with substancial knowledge, but he should be aware that its not just "experts" that come onto his site to get honest advice, and to give people that he's never met advice like that....well I just dont know what to say!!!!!!!
If he's going to give advice, he should give the "whole picture", from treats, voice control/tone, communication to the more advance stages, and not leave out the early stages "just for his videos"!!!
Rest assure, I have written a very, well lets say, stern, letter to him and am awaiting his response.
Josh_

I wonder what his reply will be .... it'll be interesting to hear, Josh :) Just a thought too, but there was a trainer around las t year who was using really rough techniques and actually broke a choke chain on a dog....he ended up in court. I feel that actually terrifying a dog (which is what i believe he may do) is totally wrong and he should really face charges over it. I'm not sure what the law is on this. Wish i knew more about it.

Lindsay :)

I think it would be unfair to "publish" his reply, but as soon as I get it, IF I get it, i'll email it to you privately!!!

Josh thankyou, I'm not actually sure if I could cope with his reply, as i expect he will want to justify what he does, but perhaps you could put some of it in your own words? I already woke up this morning with Level 10 correction in my mind and I don't want to let this man "in" - does that make sense?! :)

Lindsay

OH YES!

OMG! I just went to look at that site! Almost every answer was inflict some pain!

THAT IS NOT THE ANSWER!

Just replied to Lindsay. Which methods have you read which you aren't happy about? I'd love to know how you would sort them out. Apparently the techniques he uses are taken from a trainer in Germany, Bernhard Flinks, whos supposed to be the most successful Schutzhund trainer "EVER", and he also trains dogs and handlers for the German Police. Are there any schutzhund people here? Have you lot ever heard of him?
Josh_

Anything advocating electrical or mechanical aids to be specific. And this is for dogs the person advocating them has supposedly never even seen!!! Anyone posting on any board on the internet or passing on advice in any way had a duty to ensure their advice in not likely cause the dog any harm. Quite frankly I was horrified!

John

>Anyone posting on any board on the internet or passing on advice in any way had a duty to ensure their advice in not likely cause the dog any harm<

TOTALLY AGREE!!!!

>And this is for dogs the person advocating them has supposedly never even seen< I agree that people shouldn't make matter-of-fact responces when they have never even seen the dog, let alone without checking history/backbround etc etc

Having said that the 14 month GSD was not a "behavioral case", although I'm sure there are "softer" ways to teach your dog rather than "LEVEL 10 CORRECTIONS"!!!!!!

Me too John. I still feel quite stressed !!!

Lindsay

AHHH yes, just read the one about the 14 month old GSD!
Yeah, that corrective behaviour does seem VERY harsh!!! I wouldn't go anywhere near a prong collar looking at those things. WHO DESIGNED THEM !!!!!! I wonder how they tested it out? I wish I could try it around his/her neck!!!!

Going back to the original post.....I would have no hesitation in recommending the video to anyone. The methods are BRILLIANT. I cant believe any dog wouldn't respond to his methods. Its hard to descibe it, its a shame he hasnt written more on the methods, but then I guess no-one would buy his videos!!! He does use a choke chain, but if used PROPERLY, I personally have no problem with them, but he puts so much emphasis on positive re-inforement that I think that if you have a correct balance of positive/negative re-infrocement (at a GUESS 95 % pos, 5 % neg) then its better than 100 % positive with you calling to your dog in a nicey nicey voice and him running off somewhere. And plus when you add Jan's methods into the equasion, I think your going in the right direction.
I must say I have a question on pos/ neg infrcement. With pos inforcement, your supposed to keep the dog up beat (i know its more than that, but for the moment that description should sufice), but when the dog looses interest (for instance,..... again, i know it more than that, but it'll do for now), then your supposed to give him a "check (neg re-inforcement). But when the dog looses interest, isnt it that the handler is just not doing the pos reinforcement properly in the first place??????????? (hope that made sense)
Having said that, I have no problems with recommending him as a dog TRAINER (but thats just from my own personal experience) but would have doubts about him being a BEHAVIOURIST, and trying to CORRECT problems. I'll leave that to Jan!

Josh_

Do you have any experience of him Josh? Other than watching his video that is?

I'm sorry but taken from the little I've read and I stress I only read the recomendations on one section of training but I would not let him near a Hamster which belonged to me!!! I've been involved with training for more years than I care to remember and if I could not get the results I want without resorting these tactics I would leave dogs forever!

That is how strongly I feel about it.

Whilst you may be able to pick out the odd relevant snippet - a lot of it is now 'old school' methods that are outdated and superceded.

My family have been working with animals for years and years and my Gran taught me a lot, but my first "lesson" was watching his video. I did use his methods (the video methods, not the ones on the net). The principles that he uses are pretty similar to what everyone else are. First learning, the correctional and finnaly distractional. He says that you must keep you dogs intrest at a certain level, if it goes too low, the dog will get bored, and if it goes too high, he will become to excitable, and will only want to play and not learn.He does use a check chain, but he stress that you can only use the chain once the pup has reached an appropriate age. He has a separte video for young pups. I mean when he explains things like this, its amazing to think that he's the one writing the artcles, but obviously it is!!!
Since then I've read loads of other methods but the way Leerburg trains his dogs, I cant imagine that you'd EVER have a dis-obidient dog (again I stress that he promotes the use of positive re-inf).
To be honest, rather than copying one mans style I try and look at different trainers and think to myself what I can/cant use with Sophie.
I took Sophie through his Basic Obidience training, and then as apart of the distractional phase, took her to a puppy/dog class, and she was BRILLIANT!!! I payed for 5 lessons, but I only needed to go to ONE of them, because I saw that she was focussed on me, and doing exactly what I asked of her. The other four were used just to meet her new friends! She was great at "obidience" but I learned about being "pack-leader" from Jan's books and also Sophie used to jump up at visitors, but then I used John Fishers methods of neg re-inf to stop this.
I LOVE reading/researching dog training books/manuals etc Can you recommend any which maybe worth reading? I'd love to know your phylosophies on training dogs. To be honest, thats why I'm here. To learn more.
I'm gonna start a new thread, I'd like to know more about different training methods/equipment etc. I hope you'll ALL add to the discussion
Josh_

John
I'd love to know specifics. Maybe you can pick a case, tell us how he does, say what you think is good/bad, and tell us what you'd have done. I REALY want to expand my knowledge (which aint that much anyway!) and its sometimes good to know both good and bad ways
Josh_

If people have a problem I try to help but I'm afraid I don’t have time to get involved with semantics. There are too many other things pressing on my time.

John

I have done a great deal of research into Leerburg. I would like to make a few coments. First of all, lets talk about the prong collar. Leerburg does not recommend this for puppies except in an extreme case such as a 16 week old puupy that is already showing signs of weak nerves and being a fear biter. Second of all, there have been studies by vets and colleges that show that extended use of the standard choke collar causes structural issues with the bones in the neck.. they examined dogs that had passed away that were trained with a standard choke collar. The prong collar on the other had showed no signs of damage to the dogs structure. They inflict a sudden sharp feeling to the skin. In most cases and with positive training, a "level 10" correction is never needed. He does advocate some force in training, but only at a certain age adn provided that the other non-forceful methods are not used. He has written many articles and answered many questions on his web sie telling people that they are ruining their dogs by using force for the wrong things and way to early. If you do a lot of research into GSDs, you will see that he produces great working lines and does everything he can to better the GSD breed-far more than what I can say for the AKC and CKC which promote "show dogs" with over-angulated legs and curved instead of straight backs. Look at what the original German Shepherd looked like 120 years ago in Germany and look at them now. They are very different. After reading some of the articles, I can understand how you would have bad feelings, but try to look into him more. He is extremely knowledgable and does everything in his power to make the dogs and the handler/owners a better team. FYI, he has a video called something like "your puppy, 8weeks to 8 months" This is a great video and does not use force at all.

Having read quite a bit from the Leerburg site I can find very little to recomend it. By and large the training recomended is far harder that I would use and more likely to cause more problems for the average pet dog than it would cure. As to Prong Collars, I cannot recomend them for ANY dog!

Why do I have the feeling that we have met before?

John

The tone and phraseology is certainly familiar .....

This post has been dragged up from ages ago, it's not active, and has already been discussed!

Lindsay

First time I have ever posted anything to the board so I do not know why I sound familiar. I have been reading many of the post on it and just decided that I would put my opinion in. You are free to disagree with it. Not a problem. As far as the prong collar goes, though, I do put a lot of faith in the studies that were conducted. I have seen the x-rays that prove the prong collar does not do any permanant damage.

I prefer no damage at all, permanant or otherwise!

John