I have had my Bracco on Burns for about 4 months and the transfor amtion has been incredible. No more anal gland probs, scurf in hi coat or bad behaviour.I would really like to wean puppies on Burns mini bites but have a real reservation about the low protein content compared to other puppy foods, most seem to be 30 ish percent. I have contacted Burns reagrding this and they tell me that their food is 98% digestable. A food may have 30% protein but if it is only 60% digestable the amount of protein available to the dog is reduced. I understand this and DO really want to use Burns for pups and I am totally in tune with their ethos.There is jut something that makes me feel uneasy about weaning pups on something that only has protein levels in the low 2o's.I have used Pedigree Advance in the past.Am I just feeling uneasy because of the current trend of feedng high protein? Can any of you help me come o a decision?
Diane

Hi Diane,

Burns is an excellent food, but so are a number of other brands .. all of which have much higher protein content than Burns for puppies. I personally do not believe that Burns is any more digestible than other premium brands (like JWB or Arden Grange, etc.), or at least not so significantly more digestible than the rest of the best. After all, as good as the ingredients are in Burns it is still a dry food cooked at very high temperatures, like the rest.

If you really, really want to use Burns than why not just supplement it a bit? I little dry powdered milk, or a little scrambled egg, or a bit of chicken or white fish should up the protein enough for you to rest easy. :-)

I know if the low protein levels made me feel uneasy I would use what I knew worked in the past.

Stacey

Hi Diane, to be honest I am not sure too high a protein level is a good thing, always get mine off puppy by 4 months because of the high level. Could just be a bee in my bonnet but not only does it make them hyper (not good in a large pup) but think it pushes the growth which is something else I'm not keen on. Preferring to let a pup grow at is own speed allowing the muscle development keep up with that of the bone. This idea of very high protein is like the old idea of adding calcium to complete foods and look at the problem that is now know to cause.

Hi all

I'm really interested in this thread because we have switched our two to Burns in the last 8 months due to concerns about high protein levels and the effects, and the boys absolutely love it and they are in great condition. We're not due to get another pup just yet, maybe in a year or so, but I had already wondered if the lower protein levels would be ok for a puppy (large breed, slow to mature). So I'll be watching the replies with interest to see what the consensus of opinion is!

Lesley

Hi Diane,

A higher fat content is of more benefit to a growing pup than a high protein content. My first litter were weaned straight onto a junior food because I didn't want to go and use that company's puppy food. In bigger breeds it is better for a slower growth rate too.

Thank you so far for your comments, any more opinions welcome!So far, with your help I am leaning towards Burns.The literature from them says that puppies on Burns will be slower to mature but will reach thier full potential in the end.That was the bit that put me off a bit, they said WILL be slower to mature. I have visions of having under weight, poor boned pups at 8 weeks when they should be going to their new homes.I am not in favour of rapid growth but am a bit concerned as to why Burns is one of the only top of the range puppy foods that have such a low protein content. Keep your comments coming please, I will have to make up my mind soon.
Diane

Slower to mature does NOT equate with underweight pups with no substance. Rapid "forced" growth has proven to be detrimental to the long term health of both canines and equines with associated problems. The only thing I have against one of the Burns recipes is the inclusion of sugar beet pulp which I find unecessary.

Would be interested to know why they include sugar beat, may ask them.

At the moment my adults are fed on the venison & rice and the result is first class, both the condition of the dogs and the small amount of waste. Having a puppy soon I hope and will be expecting to put it onto the Burns, but will go and check first.

When I was first in dogs to feed to hurry along the growth in dogs was called 'steaming' and it did not produce the best finished dog in fact it caused problems as did the practice of giving calcium.

Funnily enough Tohme, we originally had our boys on the one with sugar beet pulp in, but recently switched to Lamb and Rice. Although they were doing very well on the original one, I have to say they are doing better on Lamb and Rice. Whether this is down to the absence of the sugar beet pulp I don't know, but it makes you think.

Lesley

Hi Jackie, thanks for the input, the thread is very interesting to me. Are you actually in Spalding? I am PE11 4RA maybe quite near you.
Diane

Hi Diane, have mailed you, now I am going to look up to see where you are.

EDIT: Found you, if you were any nearer you would be in my back yard.

Mine are on Vennison and Rice and its brilliant.

It is good even better that the fish & rice that I used before, well worth the extra I paid for it. Always belive that you can judge a food by the amount and style of the returned product - must say the produce of the venison is small hard and very neat. (never thought I would find myself talking about poo like that) :)

Yep - it has "spade-rolling" qualities.

And its smells good (the food that is) :D

Hi Diane,

I was reading the Rottie notes in last weeks DW and here's something that might interest you?

"Puppies fed with a lower protein diet during the greatest growth period were found to have better & stronger hip joints than the ones fed with very high or very low protein diets....

Very strong puppy diet (32% protein, 20% fat) is recommended for the first 3-4 months after which a drastic reduction in nutrients (21% protein, 12% fat) for the following 10-14months. By doing this, we can control the speed of growth and most importantly, do not allow excess amounts in the nutrional level of synovial fluids resulting in the overgrowth of cartilage and through this bone deformation"

Thank you that is so interesting. Burns is only 21% protein and even the DW notes suggest 30% for the first three to four months. Maybe I will wean them on a higher protein and then recomend Burns at 6 months. I'm just not sure and Burns cannot seem to reassure me.
Thank you all for your comments.
My next problem lies in that the product that will take over from Pedigree Advance doesnt come out until November, maybe too late for me to wean on.

I never had all this worry and indecision when I had babies!
Diane

Hi Diane. I have used Burns for about 4 years now as it really suited my lab. She had a litter two years ago - nine lovely healthy even sized puppies. We had given her the higher protein version in the latter half of her pregnancy. I weaned the pups onto fresh meat and the Burns mini-bites. I supplemented the Burns with fresh beef mince so they did have some extra protein. They all grew into healthy adults. We kept a bitch and her hip score is low. She is healthy and strong and I work her, so she has to have lots of energy and be fit. I believe it is a very good food, but like other people have said, there are obviously lots of good foods available and it will depend which suits your dog. Hope this helps.
Lorna

Wouldn't it be nice if we all knew the amount of protein, fat etc. retained by the body from a given food. To feed a high protein food where the protein is mostly grain or sweetcorn will not leave protein in the body as anyone who has cleared up after a dog feed on such food will know.

I will be feeding Burns to my pup once it has been changed over from what ever the breeder is feeding, I have been so impressed with the results I have got since I changed over to it, and I have always fed food from the top end of the market.

Thank you so much Lorna. It is nice to hear from someone that actually weaned on Burns. Did you give the mince raw? Did you give mince from the time of weaning, three weeks?. I have the bitch on Arden Grange Prestige at the moment as again I looked at the highest protein Burns and it was only 24%.I wish I could make my mind up, but thank you, your post has really helped.
Diane

Hi Diane, we started with little balls of raw beef mince, then I mixed the mini bites with water to make a soft mash which we mixed with the mince. Gradually I cut out the water so they had the crunchy bites. It was my first litter so I learnt as I went, with some advice from my original breeder. I've kept both my labs on the Burns. We won a big sack of Technical at a working test and I've just been using that and I notice a great deal of difference in the amount coming out the other end :)
Good luck with whatever you decide on.
Lorna

Diane,

Just a word of warning from me with regard to minced beef. I know what happened to me was a "one-off" incident but...........

I have weaned all 3 of my litters onto minced beef and then Advance puppy porage. My tiny girl from my last litter choked on the mince and "died" for a while in my hands until I managed to dislodge the mince and get her going again. It was a very frightening moment. IF litter No.4 is ever born, it'll be straight onto the porage and no meat until they are older. I have found Nutro's puppy foods very good too if that helps and they contain no nasties too.

Only just found this thread. My boy was on Burns fish and rice, as chicken never agreed with him over long period. Girl was on Burns chicken and rice as she wasn't fond of the fish one and my little girl was on whatever I had the most of (she'll eat anything). They are now all on Burns venison and have all showed improvements, although I was previously very happy with them. And they all love it. :D
I had a large litter and weaned with watered puppy Burns. I added a little whelpi, scrambled egg, yoghourt etc, basically because I'm a softie. They never had upset tummies and all did extremely well. I know of others who weaned on Burns without additions, and their puppies too did really well. I have a medium size breed (SCWT). While she was nursing I fed the bitch on puppy Burns and meat/cheese/whelpi/ yoghourt etc. on vets advice, so she had extra goodness without excessive bulk.

I agree.
I took my pup off puppy food and put her onto junior at 13 weeks. This took her from 30% to 25% protein and keeps her growing at a steady rate. I also keep my adults on a food lower than 22% in protein as i agree that it makes them hyperactive.
My dog had a gammy ear and nothing would shift it. I was advised tolower his protein and after two months it cleared up. It was put down to his liver not coping with the amount of protein in his diet and was showing up in his ear.
Has anyone else had this problem or is my behaviourist living in cloud cuckoo land?

In general ear infections are the prime indicators that either the dog has a yeast infection or an allergy. Protein would not cause a gammy ear. High protein diet has been highlighted as a prime cause of hyperactivity however as all the experiments have been done with commercial dog foods it is difficult to come to any conclusive results because the range and content is so varied. Most commercial diets have grain as their prime ingredient or a collection of grains so that at first glance the content appears to be mainly meat. By law the largest SINGLE ingredient has to be identified first therefore you could have chicken, maize, modified maize gluten, wheat, sorghum, soya etc etc; when added together the grains outweigh the meat content.

Grains that are used for pet feeding are not "first class" and may have been contaminated with aflatoxins. Grains breakdown into simple sugars in the body which feeds yeast (think of beer and bread). In yeasty prone dogs I would ensure that the diet contained no yeast, which quite a lot of commercial foods do, sugars (inc sugar beet pulp) and the only grain I would feed would be rice.

Maize, which is a main constituent of a number of "premium" dog foods contains no tryptophan, a precursor of serotonin (the feel good factor you enjoy after a large carbohydrate meal or hot milk etc) and is much more likely to be the source of hyperactivity. Clomicalm, the animal prozac, is tryptophan!

High protein is one of the number of "myths and legends" that has been perpetuated down the ages with no real research.

Dogs that are fed raw and have no grains or carbs seem to manage on their levels of protein ok :) That is, after all, what nature intended and what all carnivores subsist on in the wild.

(Fortunately for them the "behaviourists" have not been able to "sort them out" yet :))

Thanks for clearing that one up for me!
Coincidentally i switched him to a low protein sensitive food, lamb and rice, which was probably more to do with it.
Thanks again
Caz

<Dogs that are fed raw and have no grains or carbs seem to manage on their levels of protein ok That is, after all, what nature intended and what all carnivores subsist on in the wild.>

This is the comment that I was going to make. Why worry about protein content?, it is completely irrelelevant in nature and the key is to balance a dogs food as you do your own diet. In my opinion, feeding a dog a commercial food every day is equivalent to a human living on supermarket ready meals, you would do so occasionally but we all know that it's not good for you long term.

For all the hype, Burn's is still just another heat-treated, grain-based commercial food and it's like arguing that McDonalds is better than Burger King!

snomaes

Dogs in the wild do have a mixed diet, and do eat some roots along with fruits and vegitation as well as the guts of the prey they kill which will contain whatever the prey has eaten plus of course the fur or feather or at least some of it. Your general statement is correct but it is as well to remember that the 'natural' diet we may feed to our dogs is a far cry from what wild dogs eat.

In fact studies have shown that very few carnivores actually consume any "guts" from any animals, if they do it is generally the intestine not the stomach. None of can or necessarily want to exactly replicate the "natural" diet but it has to be an improvement on the manufactured, processed, cereal based commercial "food" produced as the by product of processing foods for humans. Whilst the wild dog does indeed eat some fruits, veggies and roots, insects, faecal matter etc this would make up no more than 10% of its total diet at most.

Would you like to tell my hounds that they are not suposed to eat it all. The internal organs, all of them, are what they eat first.

Ditto, Jackie! When mine catch and eat a rabbit, they don't leave anything.....
:)

Oh yes in small animals mine eat everything too, rabbits, hares, weasels, mice etc. However in "big game" this has not been observed. :)

Is Burns only available by mail order or is it available from shops? Does anyone know a stockist in the Leeds area.

Thanks
Janet

They used to have a list of stockists on their website, but now you have to e-mail them and they will send details of the nearest one. www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk (sorry, not sure how to do links) and click stockists.The mail order is free delivery on orders over (I think) £25 which covers a 15kilo bag, but not much use if you only want to try it.

Thanks - I saw that you had to email which seemed a bit inefficient for them and potential customers - not sure what is wrong with a list! I will certainly get through 15kg quite easily just trying it out (two large dogs) but thought I would try to pick some up this weekend - deliveries are fine if you can specify when but otherwise they always seem to happen when I am out! :) No worries - I will email them and go during the week.

Cheers
Janet

Hi,
Burns will send you a free sample of whichever food you are interested in,and a list of your nearest stockists. I get it from my local pet shop. They order the mini bites in for me,but they have the rest of the range available.If you e-mail them on Monday you will have all the literature etc in a few days,they are very efficient,and if you have any queries,they will answer your e-mail personally.

Also, they will leave the delivery where ever you need it. I work all day and am never in when they deliver so I get them to put it in our greenhouse round the back. I have never had any problems! All in all a great company!

actually they got back to me within 24 hours with the nearest stockist. I don't know why they use email - perhaps interested in keeping track of the number of people interested.

Anyway my response was a very complete response with a full address, telephone number and contact name. For which I was a bit impressed

Wendy

I think it may be just down to high turnover of stockists. If the shop doesn't sell a lot, they wont keep it, and the mail order is so good, I suppose once people decide to stick to it they order direct.

Thanks all - I will mail them and maybe get it delivered. I get AMP meat delivered but at least know what day that is coming! Look forward to trying it (or at least letting the girls try it! :) )

janet

Just a P.S. - I ordered off the net Friday afternoon - delivered this morning.

Was chatting about the possibility of Burns on another thread. I thought that I had read that the protein levels seemed quite high...must have got this wrong. My lab is prone to hot spots and like the idea of more natural diet but not sure about my pup Bichons(17 weeks old). Breeder said they shouldn't have beef and should have low protein diet. Any thoughts re this anyone please or re pups on Burns. Am feeding appropriate size of Iams to all. Lab needs the light version as is spayed.

Feed my spayed bitch on the same Burns as all the others, just feed less. Would not use Iams, but of course the choice is yours.

After much deliberation I have decided to feed the litter on Burns and reccomend it to the new owners.Hopefully it will produce the amazing results I have with my Bracco. Thank you all very much for helping me come to a decision, and the decision I wanted to come to all along.
Diane

Do contact them about their breeders club. There have been slight changes, but it used to be a free 2.5 kilo bag of puppy burns for every new owner and for each new owner which buys their first 15 kilo bag, a free 15 kilo bag (to be ordered when you need it) for the breeder. They also provided all the literature for each new owner and £5 off the first order.

Yes that is still how it is. They have been really helpful discussing all my worries re the low protein level of the food.The breeders scheme is good. If the litter grows on nicely I will be a convert from Pedigree Advance.
Diane

Phoned the people at Burns yesterday. Really helpful. They've recommended adult maintenance for all 3 to keep the levels of toxins down as Bichons are prone to these building up they say. Samples arrived today and let them all taste a few bits.They loved it. Have ordrered today and will slowly wean them on to it.
Gill

hi i switched to burns minibites for my pup and he loves it,i think its a great food.cheaper than my other brand eukanuba.if any of u had bad experince with burns please keep us posted'
thanks

YEH burns great u cant go wrong.