what is the differance between a border collie and a working bc ? i thought they were the same only one was from farming stock and is not kc reg.if this is the case why not just call them all border collies ? thanking you all in advance.

Apart from any finer breed points there is a big difference in the temperament, to call them all BC would lead to people buying a working pup for a pet to be kept in a flat whilst the owner works most of the day - disaster - mind you I don't think any dog who was originally bred for work should be kept thus, but such is life.

If you think of the WBC as an athlete who need to train every day all day and the show BC as a retired athlete who would like to train but will cope if made comfortable and allowed to train just in the evening and at the weekend.

There is no actual breed of working border collies

There are border collies/working sheepdogs registered with the ISDS(quoting my ISDS dogs registration certificates) and/or the KC & border collies/working sheepdogs not registered anywhere.

To blanket state dogs from working backgrounds are not suitable as pets is incorrect as is the show ones beeing retired athletes-some show/obedience only bred dogs can be unsuitable as pets & some working bred dogs won't work.

What is important for all border collies/working sheepdogs & ALL dogs is that they receive a level of education/training suited to the breed & that they are ALL trained

I have only ever had ISDS dogs & have never had any problems, but then I have been brought up to train my dogs from the outset whatever breed-GSD, Bearded/Border collie, Cavaliers & Mongrels etc

Working Border Collie is a misnomer.

And now lots of people will jump on my case with tales of working dogs gone wrong, sorry heard them all before & for the record my two current ISDS dogs have been shown & won in the breed ring(& my first male ISDS Border Collie won at sheepdog trials & Championship shows-despite having a "breed"fault) & both sadly have been(unprovoked )attacked at shows by the "retired"athlete show bred Border collies out of control & not able to cope with partial training. On the other hand I know some lovely show bred nicely trained & pleasant to be with dogs who would love to work but never get the chance as they are "show"dogs

Retiring into the shepherd hut

Are you saying that BC no BC should be sold to pet/show homes?

Where did I say that ????

Only that ALL dogs need training

Hey ho Back to the hut

Did not say you did, and I said that all BC if fact all dogs need something to interest them but suggested that a BC taken from a farm would find it difficult to live in a family when exercise and interested came when the family had the time. Do you think a farm bred BC could cope with that? I don't in fact have seen what happens when that is tried, if people living in that sort of home with that sort of life style would IMO be best, if they must have a breed that is best suited to work, buy from a line that has over the last ???? years been bred for the show/pet home.

Some could mine that has no interest in working & prefers to lie in the sun all day certainly could he's quite happy to do nothing all day

But as you are clearly more experienced in border collies than me you must be right

I was at a country side show recently and while watching the border collie demonstration the commentator anounced " dont buy a farm bc as a pet they need to work get a show breed one they've had the brains breed out of them". I was shocked i had a bc for 15 years and there was no shortage of brains there .I do agree a farm breed bc is not recommended for the average owner as we keep telling people, but on reflection do you think he may of had a point ? Do wbc have a much higher intelligence than your average bc .If you dont use it you lose it.

Basically he was talking a load of rubbish I have Border Collies as pets now I don't work them & they are trained & I have no problem with them wanting to work all day

There are show bred border collies doing sheep trials & working for a living

The essential thing is that ALL dogs need training & without it they can be problems

I believe I am right in saying

A Border Collie - Registered with the Kennel Club and/or ISDS
A Working Sheepdog - Is infact an unregistered Border Collie, but can be registered on the Kennel Clubs 'Working Register' to enable it to compete in Working Trials, Obedience or Agility.

The registration of a collie does not dictate whether a certain home is suitable. But, if the person looking for a collie is inexperienced in owning one or has young children, IMO I would not recommend a farm bred dog due to it's strong eye and herding instinct. I accept there is always going to be an execption to the rule on both sides.

A show bred collie has not had it's brains bred out, but by diluting the strong working instinct it usually makes a better pet. Lets face it, the majority of Border Collie owners do not live on a farm with access to sheep, so this can only be a good thing.

Any prospective Border Collie owner must be prepared to spend the time training the dog to use it's mind, it doesn't take a lot of time, just commitment.

Regards
Sandra

Well said Sandra :) Gillian

You don't have ISDS registered dogs then Sandra as their registration certificates read Border Collie(or working sheepdog) not border collie(edited to add the cerificate has the bold wording) ergo a working sheepdog registered with the ISDS can be registered with the KC as a border collie

But you are more versed in Border collies than me so what I have in front of me from the ISDS is probably wrong I must contact them & tell them

Moonmaiden, There is no need to be aggresive with your reply.

I didn't say I was right, just what I understood to be the case. I am not aware (and I stress the word aware) that the ISDS registers 'Working Sheepdogs'. I know a ISDS registered Border Collie can be Kennel Club registered as a Border Collie.

I have always believed that 'Working Sheepdog' was the term used for an unregistered Border Collie, but I am willing to stand corrected on this. Perhaps you would like to enlighten me what the difference is in a BC and and WS on the ISDS register? Can't quite understand what you mean by "not border colllie ergo a working sheepdog".

Sandra

There is no difference the ISDS do not differentiate & ergo means therefore sorry you did not understand the word. Any dog registered with the ISDS therefore can be registered with the KC as a Border Collie. It is only the KC that differentiates between BC & WSD demoting the later to the non breed showing side-sad really as some WSD have really good pedigrees free from the close breeding of the some breed show lines & look more like BC IMHO than some"breed"dogs

Anyway I am awaiting the reply from the ISDS

Aggressive me ,no thats only for my working bred collies isn't it after all they are not fit to be pets only for stock work

Must go now & get back into the shepherds hut tail between legs after being corrected again

Thank you for your reply, but I wasn't aware I had 'corrected' you in any way, I just gave my opinion. I would also like to put the record straight that I have not said collies from working lines cannot be pets, I even stated there is an exception to every rule.

I said, I personally would not recommend a farm bred collie to an inexperienced home, which I stand by. I have had a collie from a farm, one from BC lines on one side and WSD on the other and currently have a Kennel Club registered Border Collie. I am just giving an opinion on my own experience and from other collies I have met over the years.

As to looks, that really is a personal choice and long may it remain so.

You can come out of your hut now, I just ask you to accept we all have different opinions, which is a healthy thing as long as it is debated without rudeness. ;)

Sandra