How accurate are hips scores at predicting the future health of a dogs hips?

If you are asking if because a dog has a score above the breed norm will that dog be lame the answer is it depends. If the dog develops muscle to support the joint the dog may be fine, but any degree of malformation will lead to some extent of bone damage and that in turn to arthritis. This may be mild or bad and will be treated as and when the dog needs it.

There have been and no doubt still are dogs that have to be PTS because the joint is so bad that the dog will be unable to cope with walking once it is fully grown. Hips this bad do not normally get as far as being scored because the dog does not manage to reach the age when it would be scored, 12 months in the UK.

He hasn't been scored as he's only 7 weeks old. I'm considering having him hipscored when he's older.

Essential if you intend breeding. Very important if you intend working, useful for all dogs. It allows you to be forwarned and if the scores are particulaly bad, plan a life for the dog which will minimise any future trouble.

Regards, John

Thanks John, the reason is the latter - future planning of his lifestyle. By the way do you know of field trial training in the Leicester area?

Hi Angie.
Try the Midland Area of the United Retriever Club Secretary

Miss S C Jaggard
Nortoft Grange Lodge
Guilsborough
Northants

Phone 01604 740352

I don't know just where they train but as usual, a phone number can bring another phone number. Working people are generally very approachable.

Best wishes, John

Whenever I see that a dog 'has' to be pts because of severe HD I am surprised. With medical advancements, and the availablility of several forms of surgery (inc total hip replacements) I wonder why this is not considered as an option? I do know how expensive it is (my last GSD having had both hips replaced) and lack of insurance could be a reason, but rarely does surgery seem to be mentioned ahead of 'pts'

Why?

Katrina

Thanks again john for the info.
Hi Katrina, I must confess I know very little about the treatment options available for those unfortunate enough to develop hip problems. I would be interested to hear of your experience of this though.

There is two possible treatments, cut and remodel the pelvic socket or a "Straight forward human type" hip replacement. Obviously neither of these is possible until the dog has finshed growing.

Some years ago a friend in Flatcoat's had a bitch with terrible hips. it was standing "Roached backed" and it's hind paws were crossing trying to hold it's hips in. The vet would not operate until the puppy was 18 months to 2 years old. By 18 months the dog was playing, running in the fields and generally having a good life! She kept the amount of exercise controlled but never did have the operation and the dog lived out a full happy life! It's what I said Pottie, about being forwarned.

Best wishes, John

Actually John I believe there are 3 options, the other being femoral head osteotomy. I do agree that early diagnosis of bad hips can have lots of different outcomes, some though, even with care will not have a good outcome other than surgery, or it would seem the shortcut of putting the animal to sleep.

Pottie - to reply to your note, my GSD had both hips totally replaced, one at 5yrs of age and the other at 6 yrs. She was brilliant afterwards, and was able to run, jump (although we discouraged this) and swim. No one could believe she had one replacement hip, let alone 2! It was I believe the greatest gift we were able to give and changed her life completely. Yes it was expensive and due to our insurance at the time we had to pay over £1000 towards the second op, yes it was stressful (more for us than her, they adapt so quickly) and Yes it was More than worth it. Should I ever have the misfortune that this happen again, I would have no qualms (if surgery was warranted) about having it done. The results are marvellous, BUT you do need damned good insurance. You also need to be referred (IMO) to an orthopaedic surgeon who specialises in the field.

I really hope that one day with breeders (hopefully) moving towards responsible breeding, and the hip screening process, that this defect will gradually fade away, I wouldn't wish it on any dog or owner. But if you are unfortunate enough to be in that position, I would just ask people to give their dog's a chance and make euthanasia the last resort. The results from surgery are magnificent.

Katrina

It's a hope we all share Katrina. Unfortunately with the puppy farmers and back yard breeders with nothing but ££ in their eyes I sometimes despair. HD was diagnosed in humans many years before it was first realised that dogs also suffer from it.

As a matter of statistics, OFFA, the “Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals” in America, released figures in June this year about the mating probabilities. Missing out the middle ground, dogs with excellent hips mated to bitches with excellent hips together produced 96% puppies with excellent hips. On the other hand, displastic dogs to displastic bitches produced 25% displastic puppies. In other words, 75% had at the least reasonable hips!!
Of course, these are bare stats. The number of displastic matings was quite small so a couple of "Funny" scores could have had a big impact on the results. The dogs being studied in these stats were Labradors

Regards, John

Hi John

Interesting statistics, but somewhat scary. Proving perhaps that the whole issue is just one big lottery. I do hope that those stats are borne out by my new Shepherd pup, whose parents and great grandparents had fabulous hip scores. I must admit that I watch and wonder about her hips.

I'd like to do agility with her (in fact we are in pre-agility training classes). So I have it in my mind to have her hips x-rayed when I have her spayed early next year. She will only be just over a year old then. She then wouldn't start to do agility proper until 15 months of age, and then with restrictions. At least I feel that I would be in a position to be confident that I would not be making a bad situation worse if God Forbid, her hips were a problem. Obviously then I wouldn't do the agility.

If you were me, would you have her x-rayed?

Katrina

It is to a certain extent a lottery Katrina but it's the best we have. Years ago GSD's hips were terrible but the careful breeders have really made inroads into them. The scoring system was as you possibly know originally brought in by the Shepherd people. Dr Malcolm Willis was the brains and a fellow by the name of Thorpe was involved with pushing it (Can’t remember his first name, I only met him once around 20 years ago at the now defunct Stewards Association inorgreal meeting.)

As to whether you should score, you are hoping to take part in a stressful jumping discipline just as I have to put my dogs over fences. I had Anna's hips scored before getting too far along the road. In gundog Working Tests there is no jumping until the dog is out of puppy. (2 years old) I had her done to clear my mind when she was around 18 months so I could then start training with small jumps ready for the real thing at two years old. If her hips had been poor I would have been devastated but at least I could have planned her life around it. As it happened she's a 2/2 so I can let her jump with no fears.

Best wishes, John

Hi John

Yes, I want to be very cautious about the agility. When she starts agility 'proper' at 15 months, they are just tiny jumps and the tunnel (at the moment she's not allowed to attempt the tunnel, as she would have to dip slightly). I too would be devastated if her hips were poor. Not because I especially want to do the agility (it's more a fun thing for her, and to stimulate her very energetic young brain), more because I've tried so hard to get a healthy dog, especially after my last lovely old girl and her problems. If her hips weren't good, as you say, we would find other ways of exercise and stimulation. She is first and foremost a companion and friend. I was thinking of simply having x-rays to look at the condition of the hips rather than for BVA scoring. Do you think it would be best to have the x-rays for scoring? She will only be about a year old at that time, and I know that the full status of hips is more reliable at about 2yrs. Not having 'scored' a dog before, I'm not sure which route I should take. I presume the x-rays required for hip scoring are probably different to those my own vet would do 'just to have a look' I would appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Thanks

Katrina

If your vet does a good job of the ex-rays and if you know what you are looking for then you can get a fair guide to the state of the hips. The problem of course is whether you know exactly what is required. The BVA actually do, (or did) an information sheet entitled "The BVA/KC Scoring Scheme for the Control of Hip Dysplasia: interpretation of criteria" I would suggest you ring them on 0171 6366541 (The 0171 is the old London STD code so you will need to find the new one! Sorry!!) and obtain a copy, It is so informative. If you have trouble or it is out of print let me know and I'll scan my copy and email it to you.

Regards, John

The 2 cases I know of were so bad the pup could hardly stand and could not move, I don't know if surgery was considered or if the deformity was so bad (both the femoral head the socket and pelvis) that surgery was not considered possible. One was a Newfie and the other a GSD and it is true this was a good while ago.

Hi Jackie
With a total hip replacement they create a new socket and implant a ball joint into the bone of the leg, so I think it is (now) quite rare that a dog could not have the surgery.

It's surprising though how many people are amazed that this kind of surgery is available for dogs. I would like to think that anyone in this situation would be told all the possible options by their vet, but I wonder if this happens. I would just love to raise awareness that it can be done and joy can be restored to that dog's life. I do stress though that good insurance is paramount. So I would like to say here to everyone who has a breed disposed to HD (and even if you don't) - get good insurance cover early on, once it's diagnosed you haven't a hope of an insurance company paying out. It's also important to have a company that doesn't exclude conditions after 12 months, because quite often the dog can go on for a number of years before surgery becomes necessary (if ever). I don't want to come over like a zealot who would whisk an HD dog off to surgery at the drop of a hat, but for lots of dogs it is the only option other than euthanasia. I would also like to give encouragement to anyone in this situation that it's not the end of the world.

Katrina

Just a big word of warning then stay well away from the KC insurance as I was foolish enough to take it out assuming that it was for life, I didn't read the small print thoroughly enough and thought the KC was one of the best, oh yes and because it is so darned expensive.

I now have £5K for to cover MB my 11 month old Lab for the rest of her life who has just been diagnosed with bad hips.:(

Lucy

Edited to say I am not saying that she will definately need it but it would be nice!

Do the KC do insurance?

yep!

When did they start I contacted them not 6 weeks ago to ask if they did and they said they did not but put me onto someone else, very odd. What is it called and who is the underwritter.

They have done it for at least two years as have had Moose insured with them that long.

If you go onto the web site there is a sectioned called Insurance at the top !

HTH

Lucy

Thats Pet Plan isn't it? not the KC, they just sponsored by them.

I am sure it says KC on the claim forms but I could be wrong.

It has the same logo on the forms as the website has 'The Kennel Club Health Care Plan'.

I think LJS is right, the KC do their own insurance. I too was caught out not reading the small print with my first Shepherd, who was insured with DBI. Having had so much trouble with her health, and having had to contribute much to the cost over the years, I am now an expert at reading Pet Insurance policies. I also think that you do, largely, get what you pay for. The cover I have now for the pup, and for my existing old girl mongrel is with Pet Healthcare Insurance Services. I have a prime plan, which costs me £17.99 per month for each of them. But it has no exclusions, no time limit on how long they will pay out for a condition and something like cover of £9000 per condition.

I suggest (strongly) that everyone checks out their policies, reading the small print, and checking with the Company if something isn't clear. It's too late after the event to change your policy, but if you check now, you can still swap around and get the right cover.

LJS : £5000 isn't too bad, depending on how severe the problem is, it may be enough to cover what you need over the years. I wish you and your dog the best - as I said, it's not the end of the world, and so many dogs do really well on light medication and sensible exercise. If you do need surgery one day, often only one hip needs to be done. We were very unusual to have both done.

Katrina

Thanks Katrina

I know £5K is not bad and we will pay up any amount if needs be which touch wood (touching my head) that she will be OK and live a happy a active life .

Just feel a bit of a pillock really to have taken it out without looking at the fine print. Not like us really but we will know better the next time !!

I do as Katrina has said urge people to review their policies out to make sure that they are as you assume ! :)

Lucy