Hi
I became a firm convert of the value of crates for toilet training with first my retriever several years ago. I also used it to excellent effect with my lab so when I got my now 14 week old bichons I crated them too.(they are in together)They are completely different from my lab in every other aspect of dog training but it has come as a shock to find that the crate does not have the same effect on them. My lab would cross all 4 paws rather than soil or wet her crate. These two seem not be bothered. I come down to a wet crate every morning despite late last toilet stops(Midnight) and very early first visits(Between 5 and 6). I don't know whether I am expecting too much!?! Should I be putting a puppy trainig pad in their crate so that they have somewhere to go? I thought that the point of the crate was that they wouldn't want to mess it as it was their bed. They are OK through the day although I feel that they perform outside because I take them out every hour and so there is little chance for them to do it any where else. They know the command and will usually try. If I am at all lax in getting them out hourly then they will quite happily poo or wee in the house. Surely this means that it is more by luck that they ever get it right rather than them getting the idea that the house is not the place to go? Any advice anyone please? I am on alien territory with toy breeds.

They are crated separately, aren't they? If they are in together it may have only been one who is soiling, and the other is getting to think it's normal, and will do it as well.

In terms of a dogs expected life span there seems to be a huge difference in the length of time it takes for a dog to get control of their eliminations. The breed I have no are quick and easy, but when I had rescue GSDs used to recon on about 18 months. Has anyone researched this, is it true different breeds different time for control, or does it just seem like that.

Funny you should ask if they are in together or not. I had one of them on her own in the home for a week and she was doing fabulously without soiling or wetting at night. When the other one came to live with us I crated them separately for a little but two crates and a lab's bed took up the whole kitchen so I put them in together and that is when the trouble started. I know that they are both guilty now because if I catch them soon after it has happened I can tell who has a wet/dirty rear. What do you suggest?

I would certainly crate them separately. They are both more likely to be clean if the other hasn't made a mess that needs 'covering up'.

jeangeanie-do you ever have any other advice on toilet training apart from sticking them in a cage!

Shaunie, do you have anything better to do than attacking posters? I've noticed that you've yet to offer any helpful advice to any posters. We know you don't agree with crating. You've made your point. Move on, please.

I posted for help with my dogs please, not to perpetuate the same argument that has infiltrated other posters genuine requests for help.

Sorry Gee. Things are beginning to get under my skin a touch. I do think it would help to have your pups separated more (maybe the crates touching so the dogs can lean against each other for company) till you have this sorted out. I know how difficult it can be to train two pups at once, because I've done it myself, and until I knew which one was messing I didn't know which one I should concentrate on more. It worked in the end, though, so I'm sure you'll crack it too.
:)

every post about toilet training or chewing involves caging do you know how to do it another way jeanmeanie, i don't mean to be rude but do you have any other knowledge what so ever on toilet training it could help those who don't like to cage

Shaunie, for the last time, please read what others say! I've only just told you that I don't use crates! Which bit don't you understand?

Oh yes lots Shaunie - because I don't use crates/cages! It's just much easier to train puppies separately than together. If you had any experience about more than one dog you would realise that.

I see how this might get under your skin Jeangeenie. Your advice seems balanced and to the point at issue. By the way Shaunie,"LALALALA...I don't hear you!":D Sorry. Seems its getting to me too! Back to house training my pups...

Hi Jeangenie,
Reading all the posts re crates. What started as a mildly amusing difference of opinion rapidly degenerated into name calling and personal abuse. I think you handled it in a very mature, adult fashion,unlike the other poster. I have always found you to be a helpful,knowledgeable person on this site,and hope this ignorant person has not offended you too much.Keep up the good work,we are all 100% behind you.
Jeanb

agreed - in my time using this board i've found your advice re my pup really useful and kind. thank you :)

Yes I agree completely with all of you supporting Jeangeenie. Thanks Jeangeenie for taking time to reply to posts. If you and all the other experienced folk didn't do this,(quite voluntarily let us ALL remember), the rest of us seeking your wisdom would be really stumped. Please keep posting!:D

Thank you all. That means a lot to me, because I admit I was getting close to snapping. Thank you for the vote of confidence, and I'm glad I can be of help to people! I freely acknowledge I don't know everything, but what I do know I'm more than happy to share.

Differences of opinion are great - it means we all learn - but personal attacks, false accusations and downright lies are insupportable.

Thanks again.
:) :)

Keep calm,
Your advice is fine. I've been close to arguments too.

Sarah.

in my humble opinion it is very difficult to have 2 puppies the same age - they look to each other for encouragement rather than concentrate on the owner, unless you can attend to them individually. from experience, the 'dirty' one can incite the otherwise 'clean' one to copy, and the dominant dog will 'mark his/her territory to show their dominance - a messy business!
to me their crate is their bed, which should be a peaceful and clean place, and i would definitely seperate them at night.
my pup [JRT] has been clean through the night since 8 weeks, sleeping for 9+ hours, so i don't think you're expecting too much.

I crated them both separately for the last two nights and guess what.... they both weed their crates. How on earth do I put a stop to this?? It seems like the whole point of toilet training by this method is lost on them:D

We use crates for pups at night for their own protection, we do divide the cage so they can eliminate away from the sleeping area so I am not sure it can help with toilet training. And using the cage is not done for that reason; we take a very relaxed view of toilet training because I do not believe that pups will be clean until they have full control. When they are clean overnight then I expect them to go outside during the day, well at least most of the time. So I suppose you could say I don't train, I let the other dogs do it and so far I have never had a problem and never had a relapse. Do think people become distressed about this and because of it do not enjoy the puppy as they should.

Gee, it could just be that the pups can't manage to go all night, they may some nights, and they may be dry for a few days, but until they have control they can't be dry it is not physically possible. It may be in your case they have become a bit confused but I am sure if you wait a while they will get there.

When they do go outside don’t forget to be there with them and to praise. Ignore any inappropriate peeing and clean the area with a detergent.

Thanks. Have cleaned everywhere possible with biological detergent. I'll try and relax about it and keep up the toileting routine of taking them out every hour and rewards for performing and ignoring mistakes.

Do you have any idea what sort of conditions these two babies were kept under BEFORE you got them? Dogs who are kept in an area which is all the same (ie - in a large shed or similar with no access to outside) often are slow to learn there are different places for peeing and such like as they've not experienced it up until now - the whole world was their 'nest' and they had no choice but to make a mess in the nest - which makes the idea of a crate mean nothing to them :(

My sister always said she felt that she taught her Newfie pups to pee on Vet Bed because that is what she used in the puppy nest. As they got older and were able to use a run they would still run back to the Vet Bed to pee.

The pups were kept in the breeder's home in her kitchen. She used a whelping box and a puppy pen and she had started to train them to puppy training pads at night and to go outside in her garden during the day.

try putting a plastic bed that takes up most of the space in the cage, put some bedding in and keep your fingers crossed, -by the bed taking most of the space up hopefully theyll snuggle down and sleep all night.