We saw a 2 colour toy poodle on holiday in wales does anybody know where i might get one of these from? my wife hasn't stopped going on about it and i'd like to surprise her with one
Chris

Hi Chris,
Parti-coloured poodles do occur in litters occasionally, but not often, and many are not reared, because it is a breed fault.

by not reared do you mean killed? if so that is terrible

'Fraid so.
:(

who comes up with these rules? i have just been reading http://www.caninehorizons.com/The_Parti_Poox.html
this indicated to me that these colours have always been around and far from a fault.

The breed clubs along with the Kennel Club decide on the Breed Standard (blueprint of the 'ideal' dog, to aim to achieve) of all breeds, and only dogs which conform reasonably closely to the Standard can be shown, or should be bred from.
:)

so it isn't a real fault just a man decided one, thank god we aren't KC registered

All breeds have faults, because all breeds, by their very nature, must have certain characteristics. That is what makes them different to each other! If you don't want those particular characteristics, you get a different breed, or a crossbreed.
Horses for courses!
:)

well i don't want a different breed or a cross breed just what was originally a poodle

Trouble is breeders would no doubt let people have their miss-marked puppies if they could trust them not to breed. But people being what they are, there would be loads of non-standard poodles on the market, at an inflated price, because they are different, and people are greedy. Then in 40/50 years time there would not be such a breed as a poodle as we know it.

Breeders who really care about their breed, breed to the breed standard and try their utmost to protect their beloved breed, they do not PTS puppies light heartedly, they do it to protect their breed. OK they may be wrong, but that is the way it works at the moment and until such times as things change, that is the best way to protect the breed.

ok, I get the whole breed standard thing, and for most physical charictoristcs of a breed it does make sense - but colour? What difference does it make if a poodle is black, white brown or multi-coloured? Who decided what was the 'right' colour? And on what basis?

Sorry, but to me, colour in a breed standard makes no sense.

Buff

So if there is a genetic link between a colour & a physical fault like deafness it doesn't matter ???

Very strange point of view

Apologies, but are you stateing that there is a genetic conection between colour and deafness or meerly suggesting it?

If there is irrefutable evidence that such a connection exists then I agree, breeders should aviod breeding dogs where this trait may come through. However, if through genetic throw-back, an 'incorrect' coloured dog is born unplanned, I dissagree that it should be distroyed. Even if the dog is deaf, it will still be able to live a full and happy life, (we wouldn't dream of distroying humans that show deafness as babies!) The breeder should just ensure that the puppy will not be bred from in the future.

(Sorry for the spelling!)

Buff

Interesting! Can you tell me how the breeder can ensure the puppy won't be bred from?
(And some deaf dogs have a miserable life).

Through reading posts on this forum, one of two ways, either through keeping the puppy until it is old enough to have spayed/ castrated and then selling him/her, or through a legal contract which the new owner must sign and agree to. Of course the latter is dependent on having owners that stick to the contract!

Alot of hearing dogs have miserable lives too... should we put hearing dogs to sleep just in case they have miserable lives? What a nonsense!

I missed the rearing until any genetic fault appeared Hmm so about 6/7 years of age for late onset cataracts etc then

Moonmaiden, genetics is not black and white. You can never say that a dog is completly free from genetic diseases, traits etc at any age!

I was meerly trying to say that multis should be reared as any other puppy, and their health monitored at least as much as the others, and not destroyed in the first instance because they dont conform with the standard.

Again I never said they should be destroyed just not bred from

Unfortunately many people lie when they promise that a pup will not be bred from. Contracts are not legally binding, however much we may wish they were.

This kennels are the owners have a "tame"barrister in the family but they only breed the very occassional one & they usually place them with friends or previous owners, but I know where you are coming from

Not many people are as fortunate as that, Moonmaiden. If there are people who you know and trust, it's a different matter. Mostly, though, pups go to total strangers, and the moment the pup is out of the breeder's possession, they have no control over the pup's future.

If there are pari coloured poodles it is obvious that they are not all destroyed doesn't it. What is wrong is breeding for a pretty colour & selling the puppies are rare at inflated prices. In know of one well known Standard poodle breeder who has parti colours in their litters. They are very carefully placed in non breeding homes with a binding contract that the puppy will be spayed/castrated & they are followed up closely. They don't happen very often & are health checked regularly too.

In some breeds there are proven health faults linked to colour & the colours are not deemed "acceptable"because of that.

Nowhere have I written that puppies of the wrong colour breed wise should be destroyed but they should not be bred from because of their colour alone. People who breed solely for one trait of a dog rarely do so to improve the breed, but more often for cash gain. Like the blue GSDs that occur when a certain dog is line bred to, these puppies are not rare nor are they worth any more than the correct/acceptable coloured puppies, another example are mismarked Bearded Collies with excessive white(Shetland Sheepdogs also come to mind)as long as they are healthy puppies, I saw one mismarked SS that had been sold as rare for £750 & was being offered for stud at the same price :(

The thing is Buff the gene that produces a colour is sometimes/often connected to other physical characteristics. And until it is clear that is does not have other effects breeders will steer clear, as you say, what does colour matter, so why take the risk, better to stick to what is known, don't you think and discourage others for making a demand for the non-standard.

Edit: you posted whilst I was, (irrefutable evidence) would you really want to wait until some problem became obvious just so you can have a new trendy colour.

I completly agree with you Jackie. What I dissagree with is putting down a perfectly healthy dog just because its not the right colour.

How do you know it is healthy? How do you know if it is breed to another of the same colour there wont be a disastrous health problem. If you do know for certain, then fine I'm with you, if you don't then I will stick to my statement.

You rear the puppy as you would any other puppy, monitoring its health as you would any other! multi- coloured poodles are not something which have just turned up out of the blue, so I would assume related health traits would be known by now?

Perhaps I just don't have the stomach to ever be a dog breeder. I would never be able to allow puppies to die or be destroyed just because of some human-written rules that state they should be this colour or that. Who gave us the right to play God in such a way?

I haven't read anything that indicates even remotely that parti colours carry defects, these dogs appear in paintings dating back to the 1500s and i for one consider it is more the founders of these breed standards that decided on what the fashion would be rather than the original and true poodle type, to fault a dog and even worse kill it because you don't like it's colour is nothing more than cruelty and can not be excused by hiding behind somebody elses say so. ( a bit Hitler like don't you think)

"somebody elses say so" explain please.

Breeders are killing dogs because who ever came up with the breed standard decided to write partis in as a fault, if these colours have always been common to the breed then this is a fault on somebody's say so not a real one.

I assume "somebody elses say so" refers to the decisions made by a few breeders who decided at one point in history what a certain dog should or shouldn't be. How they ever decided on 'right colours' baffles me!

It all has me baffled Buff, on one hand breeders claim these dogs are worthless and on the other want to say they are worth a fortune if bred? confused or what

For people who love a breed as a whole, such puppies are worth less (not worthless, there's a difference). To people who want to con the gullible, they are worth a fortune.

CDshaw, you are confusing dedicated and concerned breeders with those jumping on a bandwagon to fulfil peoples taste for the unusual, they are not committed to the breed just their bank balance.

And you are confusing the fact that healthy dogs from normal size litters are being killed by people who think they are a law unto themselves. We rely on soldiers to defend our country, but who can stand an army barmy freak

As I'm sure you are aware, the RSPCA kills about 20,000 healthy dogs each year because there are not suitable homes for them. Responsible breeders do not want to risk adding to that number.

And thank you for your show of manners.

and thankyou for your first reply to my question which led to this debate

It is a sad fact that, sometimes, the numbers in a large litter of pups has to be reduced. In my breed, the average litter size is 8, which is a reasonable number of pups for a bitch to rear. However litters of up to 17 have been recorded, and no bitch can be expected to rear that number. Handrearing is a possibility, but often unsuccessful with such small puppies (from such a large litter they tend to be undersized). So obviously you start by culling out any malformed pups - any vet would agree that is the best place to start. After that, you remove the weakest. Beyond that, then non-standard pups would be the next. Not that the breeder wants to destroy any pups at all, but this is reality and not cloud cuckoo land. :(

Don't forget, cdshaw, the fact that you have seen a parti poodle proves that not all are culled!

Sorry Buff, it does not work that way. All members of all clubs are involved in the drafting of a breed standard and if they felt the parti should be included it would have been done. You may be correct there may be no reason why they aren't but I think we must leave that up to those who know best, the breed enthusiasts. If there was a feeling amongst those who do most to care and further the well being of the breed that there is no present or future problem in including the parti, then they will no doubt put forward a proposal to change the standard. Until then breeders would serve the breed best by letting those who know do as they consider best. No reason why it can’t be questioned and may be it is within the breed, that I would not know.

I have Pomeranian's and I have a wonderful black and tan, but they can't be shown. Well let's put it this way if you did you would be well and truly frowned upon. Black and tans are supposed to help give reds which unfortunately are very rare these days in the breed, such a shame as years ago they were the most popular breed colour now we have the "wishy washy" wolf sables etc:d (I'm not trying to cause trouble and most of our dogs are this colour).

Watch out for our wolf sable who'll be in the ring next year!!!

I'm so glad that my main breed, the Spanish Water Dog nearly accepts all colours, although it doesn't accept speckles any patches have to be proper patches. There are a few colours not accepted but I believe that the Spanish are trying to change this.

I do feel that it's such a shame that just for a colour dogs can't be shown especially when they conform in every other way. Many black and tans are perfect in confirmation but nobody will ever see them!!.

The answer is to show them, if they are good, then some judges will place them, colour is only one part of a dog, and the judge will take, or should take, everything into consideration. If it is just the colour of the coat that differs then that should not cause too many ruffled feathers, but some colour changes carry poor pigmentation and other unwanted changes, judges will then not consider the dog and rightly too.

If people do not show colours that are not the norm there is not a hope of getting it recognised.

well said. The dog i saw was stunnuing and both the public and breeders are missing out with these silly rules, I can appreciate fully the need to maintain a poodles stance, formation and personality but a colour isn't going to change any of that, and it is such silly rules that encourage high prices to be charged for such dogs
Chris

It's not the reputable breeders who charge the high prices for them though! If they sell them it's usually for about half the average price. It's the puppy farmers and con artists who charge the high prices ....

I really hope i can find a toy parti poodle in the near future and hope i will not have to rely on a puppy farmer just to get the dog i want, but it seems i won't have much option if what i have read here today is anything to go on. thanks all for your input, sorry if i upset anyone and thankyou for defending breed standards (which was done in style)

Please don't buy from a puppy farmer. Anyone who buys from them is condemning another bitch and litter to the same treatment. Your best bet is to make enquiries from as many reputable breeders as you can, and hope to be put on a waiting list. (Most good breeders have waiting lists for any puppies, not only the occasional mismark). They are about, so I wish you luck.

Sorry but I am at a loss to know how anyone would consider buying from a puppy farm just to get a fancy, different colour, if you want a poodle pup then please tell me that it is not just the 'rare' colour you are interested in. If so it is like buying Christmas decoration. And as you must know puppies are far more than just their coat colours. I am appalled.

maybe the same could be said about all pedigree dogs Jackie H why can't you settle for a mongrel?

Sorry don't understand what you are talking about, so can't reply. Don't belive you are saying that people should buy from Puppy farms or by colour alone, so what is the point.

If you scroll to the top of the page you will see where i got white GSD from. with regard to puppy farms i never advised anybody to buy from one, so maybe you'd do well to get your facts straight, what i said is i want to buy a parti poodle and breeders are leaving me little option than to buy from a puppy farm because they insist on killing these pups, this isn't a fault in the breed, isn't a health risk for the poodle and is murder at the breeders hands, so who's got morals in that one, breeders or puppy farmers?

How many poodle breeders have you contacted so far, cdshaw, to ask to go on their waiting list?

none - I have searched the internet, and contacted breeders to ask if they have or expect any, but have neither found one or been told by a breeder that they have a waiting list for such dogs. and you can pull your snotty face all you want, i came onto this site to ask for help and advice, i didn't expect some self important dog fancier to assume she was the be all and end all, it might do you well to get a life and stop being so self important, you are not the authority on dogs and owners that you think you are and you have no right to look down your nose at anyone.