hi everyone

i saw a dog-trainer last night who was in general fantastic. she teaches similarly to say the way jan fennell does (altho poss a little less extreme) and seemed really useful and really good.

the only thing that confused me was some of her advice about toilet-training. ruby is an 11-week old cavalier. at night we have her in a BIG cage (idea being that its more like a playpen) and have historically had a small pup-pad at one end, as we expected her to have to go in the night, so better to reinforce she should do it up the far end of cage. we have been leaving a bowl of water in her cage all night.

ruby nearly always does a wee & a poo in the night - i know its a bit odd but she does not seem to poo 20 mins after food, its more like 2 hours and also at some other times. she doesn't have diorrhea or anything wrong with her, she generally does about 4 poos per 24hours but its just not regular as clockwork when they appear. in the day she ALWAYS goes outside - takes herself there quite happily alone if the back-door's open, will alert us if not. (99% i go with her, use appropriate commands and reward with treat afterwards. if she's gone in her cage, i don't punish her or let her see any reaction, i just quietly clear it up while she's having breakfast or is busy elsewhere.)

she does hate having to go in her cage, you can tell by how much she wants to come out when its dirty - usually she loves her cage.

BUT i thought that pups did not have physical control till they were a little bit older, which is why i've not done anything more re this yet. i was planning to 'crate' train her more conventionally, by sectioning off half her cage @ maybe 14 weeks.

however the dog-trainer lady said ruby really should be clean already, she looked quite peturbed that she went in her cage at night. she reckons her pups are clean throught the night by 7-8 weeks. she advised that we take the pup-pad out of cage and take the water out of her cage at night & don't let her have big drinks after 8pm (goes to bed @ 10.30, up 6.30, 6.45). we did this last night & sure enouhg she didn't wee but she did have a poo.

rube's off for innoculation #2 tonight so i can ask my vet, but do you think it would be counter-productive to try forcing the next stage of toilet-training (ie making night-time cage smaller so she is encouraged to last the night) now? my feeling is she is just too young, i don't want to make her get used to going any nearer her bed if she doesn't have the capability to control herself. also is it ok for her to have no access to water for this long? i guess its comparable to going nil by mouth for us (darn awful, having done it far too many time myself!) so i don't think its a v nice thing to impose. understand it might have to happen while we completely reinforce toilet-training/going through the night, but is it too early to start now?

sorry for such long post, thought you should have all poss info! thanks for any help :) xxxxxx

IMO your training lady is wrong, different dogs, different breeds, different times for their bladder and bowel to come under conscience control. It is like saying because my toddler is clean yours should be. Total nonsense, think the whole approach to puppy training should be relaxed, and you should carry on as you are. In my experience they are able to control the bowel first and the bladder may be much latter and sometimes it will let them down right into their teens.

I find it worrying when trainer put their own narrow ideas onto their student’s shoulders, that is not their concern. You pay your money to be helped to train your dog, not to be told that your dog is behaving in an inappropriate manner. Your pup is OK a bit slow in the bowl department but not worth getting stress about.

We had toilet training problems with our beagle during the day. We asked the vet about this and he said by 15-16 weeks they should be fully toilet trained and able to hold their bladder. I wouldn't be really worried about your dogs behaviour she is only 11 weeks, an extra 4 weeks will probably make alot of difference. You don't have to put water in with her at night but i would still let her drink until she goes to bed. I know my dog has a good run round about 9pm every night and she needs a drink after that.
It is obvious that she is happy to go outside in the day but just can't hold herself over night. I just waited and at about 18 weeks my beagle got the message and she was fine. However, when my 2 labradors were puppies they were toilet trained by approx 10 weeks, they were really easy.
Good Luck and don't worry too much, they are all different.

If she trains the "Jan Fennell"way she will be using human pyschology like Ms Fennell does. This is not applicable to a very young puppy

I would not expect a Puppy at 11 weeks to not need to go to the toilet through the night unless it slept for the whole time. I would continue to praise when she does outside & the overnight control will come with age. You might even find she might start to wake you up if she needs to go during the night If she does gives lots of praise when she goes outside then

The smaller the dog the shorter time as a puppy they can manage without going to the toilet

thanks for all these replies - its really useful to have my instincts confirmed! i'm not going to worry about it for now, just get on with what we have been doing and address the matter in again in 4 or 6 weeks if it is still an issue.

just to be fair to the trainer, by the by, i made her sound a lot more prescriptive on this point than she was - it was just her advice in terms of what she'd do with her pups, as i'd asked her.

i thought this trainer was useful for me because of my position and weak points - i can't work as i've been ill so am home alone with ruby all day with nothing else of any importance to do, so my biggest potential problem with interacting with ruby is that i make her feel like she's the boss as we do what she wants. i was starting to find that she was dictating our routine completely and was in danger of becoming brattish if she didn't get what she wanted. not good at 11 weeks..... so stressing the importance of eye contact, of how important it is to be Alpha Dog and to interact with her on MY terms only is very useful for me. and the value of tidbits/games as a training aid doesn't seem exactly controversial to me - they seem natural ways to reward...... but i'm not sticking to any 5 minute rules or doing gesture-eating or being really strict & harsh with her - she's only a weeny little Cav, i can understand things might be different if i had a big pack of big headstrong dogs but that's hardly my situation!

oh there are so many things to think about with training a pup aren't there, and different advice coming from every corner - i'm sure there a few definite wrongs and then a number of different potentially successful routes, its just got to be key to choose one stick to it and be consistent. i never thought i'd put so much brainwork into looking after my pup! :)

She sounds like a typical Cavalier puppy, being harsh with cavaliers doesn't work, believe me. Underneath the soft expression & loving eyes lies a quick brain:D. Because they are seen as a "lapdog" instead of a toy spaniel. lots of people underestimate their abilities(including many trainers & behaviourists:()

You should find she will love retrieving things as they were originally used to flush & retrieve woodcock by the Elizabethans & Jacobites & there is still a gamekeeper who has them to retrieve smaller game birds in Scotland

The trick with all"obedience"training is a little & often & once an exercise is done right don't repeat it again in that session. Titbit training is well over 40 years old & still an excellent way of rewarding correct & acceptable behaviour. The gesture eating is not new either but is normally done by the owner actually eating before the dog & never ever feeding directly from their plate or the table.

Enjoy your little girl she sounds a lovely little dog. You might find this link useful

she is lovely :D! And you're right - she's learning to retrieve quite well already. She LOVES chasing the ball when i throw & say "Fetch!" - but at the moment she meanders back via having a chew on it at her favourite sunny spot in the garden! But then she brings it back to me for another go - its so sweet! She's definitely getting the right idea.

i think you're right - while we do listen to advice, my mum & i are also both big believers in following our instincts about things and ruby needs a lot of love & inclusion to be happy - she does also need to know that that doesn't mean she has the RIGHT to plop herself on my lap every time she wants to! gentle encouragement, being calm, ignoring her when she's being a pain and short (but structured) training sessions seem to work well. i'm just in the process of getting her to take the lead and just doing 5 minute sessions, stopping while she's winning (b4 she gets too excited about the treats! or chewing the lead to make games :)!) seems way the best plan. but i do them 2 or 3 times a day and she's better every time, & can do it for a bit longer. still got a week b4 vaccinations are effective so hopefully first walk will be this time next week.

thanks so much for advice - i wish i knew someone locally who had cavs for advice, but everyone round here seems to prefer big dogs! (Lovely - but i could't give them enough exercise :()