I go to a dog training classes, and they tell us that dogs are trying to challenge us for top pecking order ALL the time. Is this really true? Is this all a dog thinks abouts when it goes through a door way before us, that they got one up on us? They have us walking in and out of the dog training building alot of the evening, and we have make our dogs go behind us. They also say that dogs should not got through ANY opening before us. Is this really necessary, when your dog and you have no problems?

Charley

I think this depends on which 'theory' you are following the 'dominance' one or the 'non-dominance' one. I tend to follow the second one makes for a more harmonious life with your dogs lol :D

Jesse

Sorry, but what is the diference between 'dominance' one or the 'non-dominance' one?

Thanks Charley

The dominance one is the one you are talking about that your dog constantly challenges you for 'top' position. The non-dominance one is that dogs will take liberties if allowed but that pack 'structure' is fluid and no one dog is really in charge. Hence my dogs do everything they shouldn't do if you believe inthe dominance theory i.e. sleep on bed, furniture, pull when out walking, go through doors first etc and never challenge me at all :D

Jesse

Hi, this is a fashionable theory at the moment, which most people who have been around dogs for years simply cannot believe. It is true that there are a few truly dominant dogs, but they are very few and far between, and most people will never come across one in their lives. Most domestic dogs will push the boundaries and see what they can get away with, but so will a toddler, and no-one suggests they are trying to be dominant!

Take it with a pinch of salt!
:)

To be honest with you, I am finding the classes very boring, and so must the dogs. I also find it stressful, which the dog must be picking up on. It seems to be a waste of time to me!! The trainers says right doors now...and everyone groans.

Charley

Mine don't, anymore than they challenge each other. On the odd occasion they may each other and no doubt they have challenged me, but I can't remember when.

Edit to say : ref doors - what is the point, if they are on a lead it is much easier to have them go first, and providing they don't trip you up what the hell does it matter. They are not stupid, they know they had better not upset you too much, you have the food bowl. Can see you have to keep reminding them you hold all the strings, they know that, now children are a different matter, you have to remind them all the time who is supposed to be in charge.

I'd be finding another class - training should be fun for you both! I prefer the notion of "boundaries" to dominance - dogs need to know the rules and learn to abide by them
but what the rules are depends on how you want to live with your dogs. Mine (a large guarding breed) live for sleeping on the sofa - but they only get to sleep on the leather one (cleanable!) and only when there is a space. They always get off on request. It works for us. If I had one that challenged me over it I wouldn't let it on in the first place. Personally I find the idea that all dogs are intent on world domination rather bizarre! The odd one might be but most are happy enough to know the boundaries and have consistent leadership in their lives!

Good luck finding another class!
Janet

I agree with Jeangenie that it is very rare to get a truely dominant dog, although I did have one and sadly it all came to a head one day and we had to take the fatefull ride to the vets. I think most dogs like to take liberties a bit like children and see what they can get away with especially when they get old, we seem to tolerate they naughty habits more then.

if you've time to read some stuff about hte dog mind-set, i used Gwen Bailey's 'Perfect Puppy' [my bible with a 10 week old!] and also ahve been reading Jan Fennell's 'Dog Listener' - its really fascinating. Really has given me an insight into my pup's mind, i reckon. SHe was really worrying me w her play-biting a week [$ half ago] with a bit of studious ignoring and asserting myself (albeit gently - she's only a 10 week old Cavalier King Charles, she only needs a little bit of studied ignoring at key times to get the pic!) as Alpha Dog, she's just adorable. SO much better - not perfect by a long way but i can see how to get there with her which makes all the diff.

Have a read of www.dog-dominance.co.uk, it discusses this in some detail :)

I agree, dogs must be taught manners rather than anything else; it may or may not suit the owner to go through doors first, but if a training school seems totally hung up on this then head for the hills and find somewhere else is my advice :D

Lindsay

Thanks for the link Lindsay, it makes things a lot clearer. Interesting to see John Fisher examining his beliefs about dog training all his life which increases my respect for him even more. Its a shame new owners ( myself included) get all this stuff about their dogs not respecting them when they're already burdened with responsibility and worried about keeping control etc. Its like antenatal classes where the first time parents are hung up on control issues around sweets and bedtimes and manners...

I agree John Fisher was an exceptional man, I am just so sad he died from a brain tumour; his sense of humour pervades so much of his writing. He was really hands on and did all sorts including professional dog handling and working trials so was able to give practical application to all he did.

I think as well, to examine his own beliefs takes a lot as most of us find that very hard to do. I still recommend his earlier stuff as it does help new owners understand that dogs need consistency and boundaries.

<<Its like antenatal classes.....>>

LOL - or worse!!!

Lindsay

And what is FUNNY about antenatal classes? :D If you've never been you gotta go for a laugh. I got expelled from mine first time around for laughing at the rubber dolly and plastic pelvis and swigging entonox on the tour! Everybody Do The Doggy Pant....... annnd Relax!

I tried making my three spaniels wait and let me go through the door first, however when they all followed me out they managed to trip me up and I landed on my backside. Very painful and the dogs must have thought it hilarious, I very much doubt they changed their opinion of the pack structure after seeing me flat on my back (LOL). I was going to try all the Jan Fennell stuff but realised I was perfectly happy with the relationship between me and my dogs - I think it is an attempt to regain some control if you have problems.
With regards to going through doors first at school, isnt it one of the kennel club good citizen tests - 7 years since I last did one???

If you have to go through doorways first to prove who's boss, how on earth do blind people manage? The dog is supposed to lead - and they're not dominant dogs!

I am disembowelled by the latch everytime I try and go through the door first. :rolleyes: so Lascaux is welcome to lead me out.

I did go to another local club many years ago, with my other since past away dobe. The classes then were ran by an ex police officer. I was told to hit my dog with the end of the lead when it did not perform heal work!!!....so left and never went back. But may go along without dogs to check them out again...should think he is long gone by now...hopefully.

Charley

Think it is like most things in life, it is better to avoid the extremes. You are going to live with your dog, so you make the rules. Some people and/or trainers get bees in their bonnets and others have an idea and see £ signs before their eyes so spend the rest of their lives pushing their thoughts down others throats. Training should be enjoyable to both owner and dog, find a class where they help you not one where they dictate.

At the moment i am training for my good citizen bronze and one of the exersises is to make your dog wait and then you go through the door first but at the class we all only do it the once if we were having to do it over and over again it would drive me and my dog up the wall. And at my other dog club where we do normal training and at which i am a trainer i certainly wouldn't dream of making poor owners do that sort of thing over and over, training your dog is mean,t to help build up a lovely bond and also to have fun whilst learning if i were you i would definitely find a new club.

Good point JG

I was one of the unlucky ones in having a really dominant dog. Dylan, GSD,(who you may have heard me mention) ended up being PTS, as he became extremely dominant, and VERY aggressive towards my youngest son. He was excellently trained, and even astounded the trainer at our classes by how he handled some of the tasks we did. I still remember one comment.."byyyyyyyyyy, that's good for a Shepherd".....but he fought my youngest son, and ended up biting him.
I take responsibility for this tho'. I saw his mother, who was lovely and friendly, his uncle who was also lovely, but his father (handsome lad), we couldn't go near as he wasn't friendly with strangers. I was always warned not to take on a dog that had an unfriendly parent, but I fell in love with the puppies - cute little bundles of fluff. Anyway, his personality just changed. He just would not get on with my son. And it broke my heart having to send him to doggy heaven. But my child's welfare was my first priority (obviously).
Have had no bother at all with any of my other dogs, they're all calm and friendly..thank the heavens. So I can't say I was unlucky really, just silly for letting my heart rule my head.

hi
jeangenie thats an excellent point!

shaunie

The key to all training is consistency, never give a comand more than twice with out a correction, when you give this correction you are automatically stamping your authority over your dog, you must become the alfa wolf. From time to time you will find even in years to come you will have to stamp your authority, but this will depend on the dog, the idea that a dog some how challenges your authority by going through a door way first is stupid to say the least.Simply encourage what you want discourage what you don't.

Really I think how you train depends on the dog. Some dogs always seem to be looking for an opportunity to advance whereas others seem totally content with the status quo. Similarly some people are naturally more forceful (can't think of the right word) than others, so it is always a mix of the owner/s and dog.
As far as Guide Dogs are concerned there are strict rules which the owners must follow regarding feeding, care etc. I've known one that became completely unmmanageable because the owners family had no idea of how to treat a dog and didn't follow the rules. My friends guide dog is wonderful but they are very careful to follow the rules (their family dog is totally wayward )

QUOTE "The key to all training is consistency, never give a comand more than twice with out a correction, when you give this correction you are automatically stamping your authority over your dog,"

How do you do that?

Gosh..what alot of replys..thank you so much all of you for your take on this. I understand that we are training out dogs to comply with the good citizen scheem, BUT, the only time we see the gate is on exam night!! The way the club trains has changed so much over the 13 years I have been using them for there 10 week puppy class. They used to be so hot on heal work, starting with small left hand circles, gradually getting bigger, they dont do this anymore. Socialising that they do is also boring, 2 lines of peeps and dogs, and we take it in turns to walk round the lines. The peeps standing still, have to have there dogs in a sit, and are told off if the dog lays down. The dogs are not allowed to even look at the dogs coming round, with a class of 15-20, this can take 10-15 mins to get through the whole group, and my pup would want to lay down, but I felt stressed to keep him in the sit. On the last exam night they had 4 dogs out of the original 20.

Sorry for going on, but had to get it off my chest!!!

Charley

No matter how good the trainer or the classes there is always a high "fall out" rate because as people get their dogs to a level of training they want they stop attending or they think they should only train at the classes & don't do their work at home or they give up on the dog etc

If the club gets the money up front for the classes sometimes they have little incentive to make the classes interesting,

<<the dogs are not allowed to even look at the dogs coming round...>>

HOw do the trainers get you to stop them doing this? It's such a natural thing to do esp. over 15 minutes - i can understand them asking you to do a "watch me" command, but i hope they don't make you tell the dogs off or jerk them! I'm surmising a bit here but they sound a bit too over the top on discipline. And fancy telling off grown adults - I balk at that, i don't take to authority very well LOL ;)

I did Good Citizen's in a happy club and both my dog and i enjoyed it - although the test can be nerve wracking esp. when the dog is a youngster! :D

If the trainers are making it into a trial, I can understand why people leave in droves. Its a funny thing, dog trainers can have an almost overpowering effect on people/owners when they are in a hall and are in charge! I've seen people take humiliation, all sorts, from trainers when they wouldn't normally. It does seem as if the people in this club are at least voting with their feet :)

Lindsay

Jackie
The way you correct a dog depends on how sensitive he or she is, for some a growl from its owner is enough though this is rare for others you may have to tap them with your open hand, before I get hundreds of mails saying it is wrong to hit your dog I do only mean a tap just enough to make your dog focus on the job in hand and more importantly you. For example teaching a dog to sit is easy and is taught mainly at feeding times and so is a pleasurable for the dog as all lesons should be, but once the dog fully understands the command "sit" then chooses to ignore it then you must insist he sits by forcing his bum on the floor or taping his bum while giving the command. By doing this you are telling him that you are the boss and he will do as he is told but you must be consistant. As I say with some dogs you do need to be more hands on but once the dog understands that you are boss peace will reign and you may only need to enforce the odd command in future, again this depends on the dog.
PS I'm on a different computer today so my name has changed from pib to hextons.

For my sensitive ESS even a tap would have had her quivering in a heap on the floor - but why 'correct' at all? If the dog has been trained correctly it would respond, if it doesnt' respond, it obviously hasn't been trained fully. I find 'correction' of any sort can deminish a dogs willingness to try new things, as well as working against the bond so many of us work towards with our dogs :(

Thanks for your reply Hexton, each to their own I supose but I would not dream of pushing my dog into a sit, or turning each training sesion into a battle of wills, if mine don't obey quickly I ignore and walk away, works for me they rush to sit in front of me and next time the response is much better.

Don't need to insist my dogs think of me a the 'boss' they know I hold the key to all the pleasure in their live and they are not daft enough to upset me.

I train spaniels for working and picking up and send them all over the country, your methods of training would not work in this particular area. What would you do to a cocker going at 50mph through brambles chasing a rabbit, turn and walk away?! you would not only lose your dog but lose all the hard work you have put into him.If you train collies then perhaps your methods would work as you say each to their own.
As regards the sensitive Springer as i said it all depends on the individual dog and training should be tailored to suit different dogs. And the bond you talk about is respect born out of correct training and the dog knowing where he stands in the pecking order!

Just out of interest pib, what would you do with a spaniel <going at 50mph> (unlikely!) through brambles after a rabbit?

Pip, I was talking of requesting a sit in the domestic situation. I assume you would not have a untrained or disobediant dog out in the field, you must make sure you have a reasonable amount of control before surely.

You can train a dog to the highest standards in obedience but in the field when on scent this can mean diddley squat, particularly on its first ever flush away from the training pen.I can train a dog to drop to flush in a rabbit pen but i know it's a different ball game in the field.If you think that your young pup will drop on command to its first flush because you have done your home work in obedience then i can only asume you have never trained a gundog.

Your right I have not but as I own hounds I know the problem, but it is what you do about it, don't imagin you take of after them at 50mph. so you may as well walk away and wait.

Exactly, Jackie! Once they've taken off, there's nothing you can do until they decide to return. If you keep shouting, they learn to ignore your voice. You can't catch up with them (even if you could give Linford Christie a run for his money), and you can't 'correct' them when they return, without teaching them not to come back to you.
:)

Yes I do get after any dog that breaks on flush. I normally train on ground that enables me to do this, the dog is then draged back to the point of flush and the command issued again with a correction, this may sound harsh but it is the only way of stopping a dog of what is after all its natural instinct to chase!.Hiding behind a tree will encourage the dog to find you that is obvious but it does not in any way address the problem of running in, with out a correction the dog will continue to chase them come and find you, oh what fun!
How would you stop a dog running in while in the field or the rabbit pen using your method of training? I'm very interested to know you would handle a spaniel chasing a rabbit in a pen while you walk away and turn your back on him.

John would be the person best to answer this - he has been working and training gundogs for longer than most of us have been alive! I just train domestic dogs for a domestic situation - but I when I call them they will stop chasing a rabbit!
:)

I don't have to so I have know idea, I have hounds, draging them back would not teach them anything, just add to the fun, so as I said before, it's horses for courses. But no way will you catch me chasing after a dog or a hound.

Then you would not stop a Spaniel running In.The point i'm making is that i train all dogs in the same way with a correction if needed and i challenge any proffesional gundog trainer to come forward and say that they never touch their dogs in anyway as you suggest you train your dogs. I feel most domestic owners would be better off finding a local gundog trainer and spending some time in their company rather than group training classes.

Dont see why, most pet owner are happy with the standard of control they obtain, they don't expect gundog standards and would probable be unhappy with such a dog. Let those who have their dogs as companions train to the level that suits them, I do not think to highly train a pet dog would suit the dog or the owner, do you really when you think about it.

Its because most pet owners don't no any better, I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, but a well trained dog knows where he stands in the family. You quote "let those who have their dogs as companions train to the level that suits them" well their in lies the problem the average pet owner does not have the knowledge or the experience to train full stop, just read some of the pages in this forum,thats where a friendly gundog trainer comes in. I agree the finer points of gundog training would not be needed for the average pet but walking to heel coming to whistle dropping on command is not only rewarding but could save your pets life.

I agree, we all want a well-trained dog. But a well-trained working gundog is not a well-trained Guide dog, or a well-trained drug-detection dog, or a well-trained working sheepdog, maybe not even a well-trained pet. Different jobs need different qualities enhanced. Most dogs are companion dogs, and gundog training wouldnot be suitable.
:)

I disagree, walking to heal, coming on command, dropping on command, sitting and staying whats wrong with teaching this to the average pet dog. I'm sure if you ask pet owners most would love Fido to do these things, why else do they go to training classes. These are the training points i get asked about the most from your average pet owner.

Fortunately for my temperament, all the dogs I've helped train (gundog breeds and others) have been very sensitive, and physically 'dragging' them anywhere would leave them a quivering wreck, unable to learn any more that day. A shouted "No" is enough to stop them in their tracks.

Maybe if I was a sterner person I would use harsher methods. But I don't think I would have the success I have, and I have no inclination to try it.
:)

I'm not saying I have to do this with every Spaniel but from time to time i have come across hard dogs that would not respect anything other than dragging them back to the point of flush.The last three spaniels have been very easy and needed nothing more than a raised voice to stop them.I wish all dogs were like this but they are not!.

I'd guess that eventually you will come across a dog who perceives your approach to 'drag him back to the point of flush' as too agressive and will feel himself forced to defend himself - and no doubt that will be the dogs fault......

I have never experienced this and i do not feel i ever will. I have been training with this method for the last 20 years more dogs than i care to remember!