Timid from the litter, 21 week old Jack Russell 'Jack' is a sweetie 98% of the time, the other 2% he's very nasty. Totally laid back is his brother 'Bertie', as soft as butter but very bossy in play time, gets away with it and is never aggressive. Jack goes into a strange depressed mood, most commonly in the evenings, looks nervous and wants to hide his face. When he is like this (usually on the couch) he'll go for anything that moves. I chastise him vocally, stare at him and give him a thump with a newspaper which I have always to hand. I have had to separate them at night because of his agression, Jack is in a cage and Bertie loose in the kitchen. I don't trust Jack with the cats where as Bertie knows he must respect them. Jack has attacked Bertie a few times now, more often probably if I wasn't being vigilant with my newspaper. But Bertie fought back for the first time a few days ago which was a shame in one respect because he is such a softy and loooves other dogs. On the other hand I know Jack needs putting in his place but he is really nasty when he gets going and has already hurt Berties ear. Most of the time they play rough and tumble, pinch each others toys, charge about like lunatics and cuddle up in bed during the day. My vet says I shouldn't worry, they won't kill each other, I have a friend who came home to find a dead dog, it's back-end ripped out, so I'm afraid I won't take the chance and they are locked away separatetly when I am out. My nerves are shredded and my life on hold............ Perhaps depriving him of the couch would deal with a dominance problem, but if it is nerves then I may be making the problem worse by punishing him. I am confused...any suggestions?
Since writing this I have now purchased a second cage for night time so that Berties house training doesn't suffer and I don't have to clean-up poo before putting on the kettle in the mornings...

If Jack goes depressed in the evenings, looks nervous and tries to hide his face, he is in a state of fear and conflict :( I'm not sure exactly what happens but it seems his reactoins are heightened at this time - maybe as all the "family" (cats, people whatever) are all together. He probably finds this very stressful. I don't mean to be rude but it sounds as if uyou use the newspaper a lot and almost have it ready to control Jack - this is not good for anyone, and the problem does need to be addressed in another way, preferably with someone on hand to see what is happening.

I would suggest you visit www.apdt.co.uk and find a trainer with a behavioural interest in your area, and have a chat with them. I reckon on the spot help is probably best in this case. As Jack is so young there is every chance things will improve.

Best wishes
Lindsay

Kittycat seems a bit trip trap trip trap to me ;)

Zoe , could I suggest you look at the other posts made by Kittycat , seems perfectly genuine to me

:)

Melody

Zoe, wot's the problem? I assure you I am very real. Seems to me you are displaying suspicious tendencies......could lead to aggression?

Thanks Lindsay, I am very confused as to the reason for his nervousness and it has made it difficult to decide how to deal with it, if he is nervous then chastising makes the problem worse, but if he is being nasty through wanting to dominate then I am compounding the problem with being kind. The chicken or the egg??? I agree he needs assessing....And please be assured I do not use the paper often, it is more a need to protect myself when dealing with him, he can be very fast when using his teeth!
However....I am pleased to report that problems between the two dogs seem to be resolving themselves. I am fairly sure that Bertie is higher in the pack than Jack. Bertie rules with firmness and is very bossy but never nasty...I think Jack may have finally given up trying to better him. So now it is the problem which occurs in the evening, or when he is at rest.
Last night we had both dogs on the couch and Bertie was sparko. Jack realised that Bertie was going nowhere so became unsettled and took himself off into my daughters room and curled up on her couch. Within minutes of him settling he was growling at my daughter (aged 24) for daring to move about the room. He was told off verbally and taken to his cage where he looked forelorn for a few minutes but then went to sleep. After about twenty minutes he was wagging his tail to come out, which he did and was fine...
Earlier in the evening both dogs were in their day basket when my husband walked in and said hello to them, Jack growled and sloped away and hid behind me, then sloped outside. My husband called him in and when Jack approached him in a friendly manner he rewarded him with a biscuit, seemed to reassure him and he was soon wagging his tail.
Don't worry, Jack gets loads of love, kisses and cuddles. I spent most of last weekend in tears because I was didn't want to give up on him but I was tired and stressed.
Thanks for your help and I will consider a behavourist but I was a little concerned to read about some of their methods. I was offered a referral to David Appleby....anyone got any good experiences of him?
cheers Kitty

There are a lot of so called "behaviourists" walking around who are definitely not. That is why you should always approach a vet who will refer you to members of the APBC who have the necessary knowledge and experience. You may need to wait as most of them visit you in your home for a full case history and to observe the dogs in question.

David Appleby is a reputable behaviourist. Their methods involve retraining both dog and the whole family through a structured approach which invariably does not use punishment or confrontation.

HTH

Thanks HTH, my vet says I could be looking to a wait of up to seven weeks for David Appleby..! I'm near Bury St Edmunds Edmunds in Suffolk if anyone knows of any others with good reputations. But I will contact David Appleby via vet ASAP in the meantime.
Thanks again, Kitty

http://www.apbc.org.uk/Members.htm

This will probably give you some members in your area. However they will not come and see you without a vets referral.

ATB

I think someone else on the board is booked up to David Appleby - I'll be interested to hear reports, I believe he is very good although i don't know anyone personally who has seen him, but the reputation generally is good :)

May I also suggest you get hold of a good book on dog behaviour, I like John Fisher's "WhyDoes My Dog...?" as it really helps owners to understand what is going on. It can be very hard when things go awry.

Dogs who are growly may not be at all dominant, sometimes quite the opposite, but is is difficult to tell from any posts. Take a peek too at www.dog-dominance.co.uk as that is a site that can set people's minds at rest very often :)

Good luck

Lindsay

Thanks for all the suggestions, I will take them on board and let you know how things go.
Cheers. Kitty

Just one tip, you said he was put in his cage for growling donot use his cage as punishment this is his place for rest and confort and dinner if thats where you feed him so if he gets stuck in there for misbehaviour as punishment it is very confusing.

Thanks Patches, good point about the cage. My brain is so scrambled at mo I should have thought that one through myself.
Good news (of sorts) we are booked to see David Appleby, bad news, not till 9th Oct!. Wot the hell do I do in the meantime? It is so awful to exclude him from evening cuddles but I'm afraid someone will get bitten. Yesterday evening he spent in the kitchen with the back door open and I spent some time playing and loving him there. Poor little scrap.....I do love him but feel so useless. (I've no doubt someone will tell me I shouldn't leave him in the kitchen either)
Anyway.....when the 9th finally arrives I will post a detailed account on the board and let you all know how David Appleby conducts our session, we have to take Bertie also. Oh and I forgot to mention my session on the 9th will set me back 140 squids!!!!! I'm expecting champagne and canapes......But my vet assures me he is probably one of the best behaviourists in the country so I'm lucky he's only 40 mins away in Cambridge.
Cheers for now, Kitty

LOL well look I'm sorry but, maybe I mis-understood but anyone who 'thumps' their dog with a news paper and wonders why it is timid just seems bloody strange to me.

Appoligies if you are genuine :ROLLEYES:

Zoe, Jack was timid before I used newspaper which I assure you didn't hurt him but merely challenged the aggression by showing I would not tolerate it. Bertie stood up to Jack's challenges and they have sorted their differences, now I must do the same. I am a confirmed animal lover and would never never harm anything; I do not even kill flies!
If you had any idea of the torment I am going through....... I came to Champdogs for support.
Kitty

HI Kitty

I would certainly suggest the best you can do just now (until you see the behaviourist) is to manage the situation and try hard not to let anything escalate - so any situation which would normally result in confrontation or upset for either the dogs (one, other or both) or yourself or family, avoid by yes, using different rooms, a crate (for control rather than punishment), childgates or similar.

I would not use a newspaper at all, because although this used to be a method of discipline years ago, it is generally considered now to be not a good idea for several reasons. If you get "Why Does My Dog...?" you will start to see the bigger picture :) I understand you feel the newspaper helps, but aggression is rarely solved by aggression esp. in the sort of case you detail above where the dog is nervous anyway :) Of course you love your dogs, but it may be that yiou are making things worse - you dont' need to stand up to your dog, just train him, and you will need help to do that :) Luckily it seems you have that help on its way which will be such a relief for you!!!

I wish you luck and hope things get better for all of you

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay, I am pleased to say that things are really improving. Both boys are sorting themselves and although they had a fight today, which was the first to my knowledge for a while, I let it go on for a few seconds to observe.....Lots of horrible noise and though sounding savage they were 'mouthing' on hinds legs rather than trying to rip out eacher others throats. But make no mistake it was a fight. I did intervene eventually (chicken) and looked rather like a lion tamer having to place a kitchen chair in between them since they paid not attention to my voice. Both looked sorry and soon made up with each other. It was, I think an arguement over a juicy snail! We have been avoiding stressful situations for Jack (and us) and although the evening Jeckyl and Hyde thing is not totally sorted it has definitely improved with lots of reassuring words and a few little biscuits. If it continues at this rate I may not need the Behaviourist, but we'll see............
They both love their cages and happily go in themselves at night to await a treat, so Berties house training has resumed and all is well in the kitchen.
My garden looks like the Somme and my husband is making an area for them at the end which includes use of the summer house for shelter. I had a brilliant idea of picking-up and old sideboard (small) from the local tip and making a bed on legs for them which can be in the summer-house. they play so hard all day long and justing watching them makes me feel very tired (that's my excuse for not doing my housework!) and though they enjoy having the run of the entire garden, they have been very destructive. Never did I imagine that two little pups could dig, squash, prune, litter, destroy and generally cause such mayhem. They have even overturned flower pots, removed the plants and scattered the contents. They have now discovered the garden table and proudly sit looking around like kings of all they own. Still they're not pups for long and they have been very entertaining, wots and little vandalism between friends. :D
Thanks again Lindsay, Cheers for now. Kitty