Hi everyone

Our little girl is nearly 4 mths old. We bought her from a breeder we found on the KC web-site but it was the breeder and mum's first litter and they won't be having more as the mum had to have a caesar. We visited quite a few times before we took Molly home and saw the mum on every occasion and the dad once. The breeder was very friendly and helpful and we asked all the questions we had been told to.

Here's the problem - what we weren't told to ask about was hip-scoring! I feel so stupid now as I've been reading a couple of threads on here and now I'm in a panic and can't believe we didn't check this. I'v e checked the registraton docs from KC and can't find any ref to the parents having any checks.

I was so upset about it last night, she's our first pup and we thought we'd done everything by the book but now I'm in a major state of panic. Please can someone help? Do Westie's not need checking? What should I do now?

Hi Claire,
Don't worry! I can't find any reference to Westies being routinely hipscored. It's generally the larger breeds that can have hip problems - smaller breeds have their own specialities! I'm sure a Westie specialist will be along soon to fully reassure you.
Good luck, and enjoy your pup!
:)

Thank goodness for that! We know about all the Westie problems e.g skin conditions and checked on all that with them so really panicked when we thought we hadn't checked about the hips! Phew! I would never have forgiven myself if I caused her any suffering.

That's probably the reason we weren't told to ask! Thanks for your help. If there are any westie enthusiasts though that can def put my mind at rest I'd be really grateful.

Panic over!! Westies do not need hip scoring as they dont suffer from hip displasia . A test you could do is to have your westie eye tested as the KC/BVA are keeping an eye ( sorry for the pun) on juvenile catarcts. However if you have no intention of breeding its not necessary unless you want to. Your vet will recommend a specialist to see - costs me about £20, but dont know if the fee is always the same with all specialists - you need to take your KC reg form along. There are a couple of other diseases you can test for but they are so rare in this country that as long as your puppy has UK breeding there is little need to worry about those.

The hereditary diseases that affect Westries like CMO and Perthes, dont present until several months old and there is no testing for those available as far as I am aware.

You should be careful not to over exercise or allow the puppy to run up and down stairs as this could possibly bring on Legge perthes disease in a genetically susceptable puppy, which does affect the femoral head too, as HD does, but in a different way. Playing round the house and garden and trips out in the car and short walks (10 minutes) for socialisation are all that is recommended until the pup is about 5 months then you can gradually work up to 20 mins - 30 mins at about 8 months. At 12 months you can up the exercise and take them out all day when they are fit enough. You can of course take her to training classes once a week too. But do be careful not to over tire her. If she gets tired, you have gone too far/done too much. Luckily being a small breed you can carry them if they get tired.

Westies certainly canhave Hip dysplasia as can any dog, but in a lot of smaller breeds hip scoring is rarely or sparodically done, as it is not considered to be much of a breed problem. My own attitude is how can you know this is so unless you keep a check on it?

I would not worry about your pup unless she has lameness later on, as her breeder did what most breeders of your breed do, and didn't score. If you want to be sure what her hip status is then when she is 12 months old you can have her scored, andif it is on the high side then you can ensure that you manage her in such a way to minimise the chances of it causing arthritis. Attention to excersise, correct weight etc.

Brainless,

I know Cairns, which are about as close as different breeds can be in terms of structure and genetic history. I have never heard of a Cairn being hipscored and any vet with a shred of ethics would laugh and tell a Cairn owner not to waste their money on hipscoring. I suspect the same is true for Westies. The incidence of true hip displaysia is so rare as to be virtually nonexistent, which is why no one does hip scoring - there is nothing to keep a check on so no reason to test. A hip score would be pointless, since there is no standard range established or norm for the breed.

Westies, Cairns and any small breed commonly have problems with their knees, eg, luxating patella. This is common and so far no pattern has been established in terms of inheritence.

It is, of course, true that any breed can develop arthritis in any joint from the wear and tear brought on by age and/or stress at the joint - hip, elbow, knee, anywhere.

Stacey

Thank you all so much for your help. That has certainly stopped the panic.

We are careful with the exercise to make sure she doesn't do too much although she's a lazy tyke and keeps asking to be picked up! Not really, it's because the slightest noise spooks her (some boys on skateboards frightened her about a week ago). I ended up carrying her nearly the whole way. I didn't want to (even though her big brown eyes were begging me to!) as I didn't want to make a big deal of it but she just lay down and wouldn't move. Then on the way home she ran really fast to get in as quickly as possible. Any tips on helping her calm down and enjoy her walks more? I talk to her the whole time telling her what a big brave girl she is to try and reassure her but it doesn't seem to help and I just get very odd looks from passers-by!

Hi Claire, you will have to help her get over her fears as quickly as possible. Take her out every day and totally ignore any fear behaviour. Reassure her a little but not to much - certainly do not stroke or pet her when she is acting frightened or you will imprint on her mind that there IS something to be fearful of and that this behaviour will get rewarded.

When she acts fearfully be very matter of fact - cheerful in fact. If she lies down and wont move then just wait with her til she gets bored and then continue in the direction you were going. I would just keep walking without looking at her if I was on grass and let her drag along behind. You just have to convince her that there is nothing to be frigtened of. Dont give treats until she is up and moving again. As soon as she does give lots of praise, but totally ignore fearful behaviour. Dont pick her up - she doesn't need your "protection" when there is no real threat. Take her to town and sit on a bench with her and let strangers give her a treat, take her to boot sales, anywhere where there are lots of people and a busy atmosphere. Take her somewhere every day. It wont take long for her confidence to improve - but start tomorrow. Bang and crash about the place at home, she'll soon realise that noises dont hurt. Put something strange - cardboard box - bike - anything in the kitchen and ignore her while she hides under the chair or barks at it. Put something diffrent there every day. She just needs to experience new objects and situations. Good luck.

Thanks for the advice (again!)

Just wanted to say that she isn't frightened at home at all (hoover, washing machine, me dropping a pan) nothing phases her. Although she does bark at the TV sometimes. But as soon as she sees her lead she gets all scared and acts as if she doesn't even want to go out.

We live on a very busy road so I always take her out early or late when there's much less traffic and we have a route we normally do which isn't too far. It will take us a good 10 minutes (sometimes longer) to get to our 'turn around' point. This time is made up of her constantly stopping and looking over her shoulder, the usual sniffing, lying down, refusing to continue walking until passer-by has gone right past her and asking to be picked up.

But on the way home it's a totally different story. As soon as she knows we're on the way home nothing stands in her way. She will still stop occasionally but mostly she walks straight home and quite quickly at that. Then when we're within 100 yards of the house she starts to run. Why? Is it all a game? When she runs I always start to laugh so is this just spurring her on? I just want her to enjoy her walks.

Oh and also, I took her out on Friday night with my niece and nephew and she was fantastic, hardly stopping at all, yet as soon as we're on our own she reverts back.

Hips are not assesed against a norm for the breed, but against an ideal which is the same for all breeds.

I still maintain that if breeders do not hip score they cannot know how bad or good the hips are.

It is a fact that different breeeds can cope with different levels of dysplasia based on their size weight and musculature, adn I would imagine that most of the small breeds that are rarely scored could tolerate a high score without showing much in the way of physical signs.

Kalmor Assasin a Groenendael I remeber had a high hi score but was judged a good move. If I am not mistaken it was around the 40 mark. A GSD with such a score would probably have problems.

Not so Brainless there is a top winning GSD with a much higher score that 40 & she is an excellent mover-obviously she will not be bred from-She actually is better in movement than stance. She is always in superb condition & very well muscled I was always advised that the muscles & cartiledge can off set the malformation but as I said before not to be bred from, but to keep the dog free from pain etc

Brainless, I would be very interested to hear of any proof you have that a Westie has suffered from hip displasia. I am frankly amazed that you would recommend hip scoring for a breed that does not suffer from it.

Hi Westielover

If one westie has been scored & has a score of 1 or more then it has HD, if it has a score of 0 then it hasn't got HD

I was advised by a canine bone specialisr that the only breed of dog that has never been found to have HD was the pure bred racing greyhound, all other breeds have been found to have a degree of HD

Small dogs have fewer problems with HD than larger breeds, I had a Cavalier scored-he was 6:6=12, never had any problems with his hips, but he did have HD

It is much less of a problem that MVD & retinal folds etc. but if my dogs were to be used at stud they would be scored as well as all the other tests before breeding regardless of breed

Because HD is a polygenetic complaint & not totally caused by genetic make up it is not possible to fully predict the HD status of a dog even if both parents are HD free, but it makes sense not to breed frojm anydog whose HD status is not known, because if one of the puppies has HD in a bad way, ignorance is no defence when it comes to the law & you cannot sell puppies from unhealth tested parents with the warning "buyer beware"(can't remember the latin)like you can an inanimate object with a possible fault

I think there are hairs being split here - I suggest the best course of action for anyone enquiring about hereditary conditions affecting a particular breed would be to ask their parent breed club as it obvious I dont know what I am talling about.

I wasn't getting at you WL just pointing out that it has all to be viewed in the right context & technically you cannot say a dog hasn't got HD unless it has been x rayed & scored, but with some breeds it is not as important as other possible problems-like eye & skin problems etc

There is no need to have any dog scored it is a pet & not hving problems, but before breeding personally I hip score eye test etc all my dogs whether there is a problem or not in the breed-not that I breed very often

I eye tested my beardies as they originate from ISDS stock & in the past have had BC blood(& ergo CEA is possible) but others do not because it does not effect the dogs vision & can "go right". IMHO they were wrong I was right & for them they were right & I was wrong. The only thing is I knew my puppies were not affected they only believed theirs weren't

Hi,

Surely biologically it possible for any breed of dog including mongrels to have
hip dysplaysia.
Malcolm Willis a leading expert on the subject says till all breeds are hip scored
and all plates are submitted we will never know the true extent of what hips are.

It is also verey possible to use lines using extremely low scores to throw high ones
and vice versa.
All we can do is the best of what information we have?
Nothing is ever guranteed .

Thing is obviously pet owners do not get their pets xrayed if everyone did
it would prove quite interesting but quite impossible to ask pet owners to do this as well as
people who show and breed

Just some thoughts

Briony :-)

Hey,

Just as an after thought I wonder what my hip score would be? :-D :-D

Briony :-)

Ditto, Briony! After all, humans get HD too. It's just called by a different name (CDH - Congenital Dislocation of the Hip), and all newborns have their hips checked for dislocation.
:)

I think the idea of hip scored all breeds would be fine if it were not for the fact that the test, whether involving general anaesthetic or sedative, carries some risk to the dog, therefore I believe it cannot be justified if problems do not occur to the breed and are unlikely to due to their size and conformation.

my boss at work who trials labs had his best dog hip scored last month, it died under anesthetic, 4 years old. This dog was worth a lot of money and won nearly all trials he was entered in. Its a terrible shame but i suppose these are the risks that have to be taken :(

Hi,

You can never remove all risks.However modern anaethetics are so good nowadays.You spey your dog under anaethesia no differnt for scoring
some vets offer heavy sedation althogh not my personal choice.

I would not give a second thought to a young fit dog with no other medical complications or conditions having an anaethetic for scoring, I think if your breeding my personal opinion is all breeds should be scored
and all plates submitted .Just my opinion.

To me the risk is so small I would rather know what my dogs are producing so reduce any hip problems for the breed .For those breeds which don't hipscore at the moment my personal opinion again would it
not be useful to start doing this to make absolutely sure the breed doesn't have any problems beginning to creep in?You may not know otherwise there is a problem?

I know there will be fors and against doing it,what are other peoples opinions??

Briony :-)