When did I quote you about behaviourists- I simply used my interpretation about your post - like you said, I know nothing about collies. When did I question your advice on whether they know anything or not about collies? You really should read posts more carefully instead of going off the deep end and getting defensive.

You want to keep your dog, Moonmaiden tells me no behaviourists know anything about BC's... I can't win can I

I quote you correctly I did say most not all

& a "nip"from a Great Dane would be far more dangerous as a lady(now deceased sadly)who did Dane rescue always told me than a nip from a smaller dog

whatever. :rolleyes:

Well Chloe

So my puppy bitch who was at a benched obedience/breed show was not attacked by these two little thugs ?????? Why did their parents pay for the vet's treatment then ? What angelic little angels all children are of course ? No child would ever hurt an animal only grown ups ? Where do you live it must be paradise ? Not heard of the study about chldren who have been cruel to animals when young also being violent when they grow up ? It was front page headlines in the papers was that false then ?

I've even had a"toddler"try to stroke one of my cavaliers then lash out with his foot, mother most embarassed, yet the other child she had was lovely with him & asked if she could stroke him first & was very gentle.

You have not got a rescue coliie then,very wise & I must remember to not let my Therapy dogs(the BC's)get eye contact with the disabled children they visit in case the children get savaged, which must be due to happen anytime now as they have both been visiting since they were puppies & the kids give my two lots of eye contact,

Do not equate rescue border collies that have been mistreated &/or abused with border collies than have been correctly trained & socialized. The same goes for any rescued dog, I've had a X breed who was terrified of children(would mess herself if one came within six foot of her)& men(tried to run away)It took me ages to rehabiltiate her & I never ever let a child near her as she became so very stressed & upset. She had the physical scars of abuse(including serious eye damage diagnosed by Peter Bedford as being typical of a blow to the eye & old bones fractures) as well as the mental ones.

Did I say your dog wasn't attacked, did I question it? Do you always put words into other peoples mouths? I simply stated that not all toddlers/children are bad with dogs, my children have been raised with dogs, and they would NEVER hurt a dog or any other animal....and nor would ANY of the children I know. I don't live in paradise, but nor do I always assume the worst, or the best from everyone and everything.

Regards to the rescue collie - I was simply pointing out that (as per BC rescue) not all BC's are good with children - but there you go again, generalising and making assumptions. I'll happily give you the contact details of the people I spoke to.

I am delighted your dogs are good with children, however, the post wasn't about YOUR dogs, it was about a BC that has nipped a neighbours child. At the time of posting we had no further information, so I completely stand by my posting and you can think, or reply, as you see fit.

Hi Chloe,
thanks for your prompt reply, I must say that I agree that it is not possible or desireble for me to abdicate responsibility for this, however I think that your post assumes a lot! Firstly, I HAVE been to the neighbour's house and my first concern was for the child. That issue is now resolved, I have spoken to the child and her parents.

I would also point oput that the dog was in a fenced off part of the garden and the child opened the gate and went into the area. Of course this is not her fault - it's mine, but I dont think this counts as recless or negligent. After such an incident, if I allowed it to happen again, then I would of course be much more culpable.

I am considering what to do about this, but the dog will NOT be pts because of this, we may decide that it's best to re-home him. I have already seeked the advice of an excelent behaviourist with extensive border collie expertise, this was done with appropriate haste.

I did not need moral advice from this board, so I didnt think that I needed to provide these details. I want to understand the legal position so that no-one turns up to take my kids' pet away. No-one of good concience can feel good about any aspect of a dog biting a child. There is no good side to this.

I am dissapointed that you felt it appropriate to offer such a verbal lashing without any real knowledge of the facts. You know what they say about assuming.

<<<I would also point out that the dog was in a fenced off part of the garden and the child opened the gate and went into the area. Of course this is not her fault - it's mine, >>>

Excuse me but where were the parents of the child - were they not supervising her ??
The child is not at fault and I dont view you as an irresponsible owner from the content of your posts . I think its an unfortunate incident . :(
How is the dog with your own children - Does the dog bite/nip when treats or food are involved when your own children are around ??
I would not be too quick to rehome until all the facts are known .

Thanks Lel,
the dog is usually fine with all children, but we normally feed him away from anyone. The 2 year old can give him treats and he's fine. He doesnt usually nip but I dont think he can be trusted un supervised any more. I'm not going to do anything in haste, we'll spend a few days talking about it and we'll not allow him to be with children in the mean time.

My wife and the older kids are just worried that he's going to be pts as a dangerous dog.

cheers
Chris

It is worrying when a dog bites- especially a child.
Did you mention how old your dog is ?
If the child grabbed the dog then I can see a reason for the nip/bite . By the way there is a realm of difference between a nip and a bite !
I would keep an eye on the dog for the time being . Did you trust your dog with your children before this incident ?? You will know deep down if the dog is aggressive or untrustworthy .
We had a border collie as children . She wasnt a pedigree but she was just the lovliest of dogs . She was my best friend growing up too .
Watch her and seek advice from a trainer - dont do anything rash because others make you feel you have to .
Good luck

Thanks very much Lel, I appreciate the advice.

No problem :)
Being a father yourself I'm sure if you felt your dog was a real threat you would have acted already without the need for posting
Good luck

Hello Chris

I am afraid if it were one of my dogs that had nipped a child , or , one of my own children , the dog would be pts.

Being the victim of a dog attack when i was younger , there are no excuses for a dog that bites or nips a child , ANY child.

I feel for the situation that you are in , but i hope your dog is insured for 3rd party , people can be funny and change their minds even if all seems well.
I agree the parents should have been supervising the child , but they could argue perhaps later on down the line that your dog was not enclosed properly , the gate should have been locked.

HELEN.

This is a nightmare scenario to be in, and I feel very sorry for you - but I am horrified that you would even consider rehoming a dog in these circumstances - surely this would be grossly unfair on any new owner? Even if the dog was rehomed to a childless couple, he is bound to come into contact with children on occasions - visiting children, or just in the street. I would have thought that was the worst possible option.
I do hope you are able to find a safe solution, but please don't off-load the problem to some innocent, well-meaning, unsuspecting person.
Cathy.

Hi Cathy,
thanks for your comments, of course I would not dream of hiding any of the facts regarding this incident from any potential new owner.
Chris

Chris, sorry I was just thinking about rescue organisations - for example, when we rehomed a collie-cross a few years ago, the rescue kennels told us he was a gentle dog who wouldn't hurt a fly. They were absolutely right, as far as people & children were concerned. However, they didn't say - or didn't know???that he was aggressive with other dogs - to the extent that in the end we didn't dare let him off lead! :( :(
So although I'm sure you would be honest, sometimes if a third party (e.g.rescue) is involved, the communication can so easily become muddled,.
Cathy.

i'm sure chris would disclose all the facts if he was rehoming his dog ,unlike our local RSPCA .my friend recently got a bearded colllie from them and wasn't told of any aggressive tendencies.we went round to visit and she lunged at my hubby and bit him from his eye down into his cheek and drew blood.Two weeks later she lunged at a man who had called at the house to buy a car and split his lip.my friend is reluctant to do anything about this as the dog has been fine with her, but it's obvious this dog has a big problem with men:(

Chris, If you normally feed your dog away from people I am thinking that there must be a reason for you doing so?

From my reading of your posts I think you are not only at fault if it happens again but that you were at fault this time for letting it happen. You say that from now on you wont let your dog be unsupervised which I take to mean that he usually is unsupervised. I only let my dogs out in the garden etc under supervision even though I know they are safely fenced in - mostly because I am worried about someone taking them more than anything else and I would never leave them alone with a child.

I know we all love our dogs but some of the posts on here do seem to come across that children are some strange breed that should be avoided. I was inquisitive when I was young and did things I shouldnt - all children do - so they must be protected by us, their elders.

I hope you find a way round this and truly hope it doesnt happen again but I could never trust my dogs if they bit anyone - let alone a child.

Gina

Hello Chris

My post contains the very basic response, based on your basic post... how could I possibly give a more detailed reponse without further information?

I too have been subject, in the past, to children letting themselves into my garden to play with my dalmatians - so I understand how frustrating that is.

I did not ONCE suggest you had your dog put to sleep, I simply advised reactive measures which you might or might not have already taken. You clearly have everything covered.

Finally, I don't see that as a verbal lashing - if I had wanted to give a verbal lashing then it wouldn't be on this board :). Its a serious matter, and if my dog bit a child I would never ever trust it again, no matter what the circumstances...I'm afraid that I can't give out fluffy responses to such posts - because if it was my child that got bitten I would be totally distraught.

Chloe

Edit - as I said, I don't think he should be pts or rehomed, but I do think you should look like you are doing something (which was my behaviourist comment) and I understand you already have that covered.

Come on guys - lets try and work out some constructive advice instead of bickering . :)

I have to agree with Chloe on some points, even though it was "just a nip" it is still serious and family can't be expected to keep dog and children seperate what is the point? I don't want to upset anyone i just know of two cases where a child has been seriously injured and both attacks were to the face and ended up in plastic surgery. Like someone said every case is different as is with humans and needs to be looked into, as many parties could be involved. I don't think people are being critical just protective of there children.

thanks for your comments Charlie, I agree, this is not something that can be written off or taken lightly.

This is a difficult one, Chris.

I remember when I was about 5, I was stroking my aunt's dog when he was eating his dinner, just as I did our dog. However, my aunt's dog hadn't been properly trained around children, and the scar around my eye from the bite I received only really faded when I was in my 30s. To this day I can't work out who was most at fault - me for treating the dog as a 'safe' dog, or my aunt for not training him.

I have no idea how the law stands on this, but I would guess that a serious course of training would be beneficial, and a lock on the gate!
:)

I've been in a similar situation - my own rescue dog has nipped at my youngest son - and she is still here to tell the tale. We took it as a warning, became far more aware of what she was doing (and what he was doing when he was around her........) and we haven't had a similar incident for nearly two years - but this doesn't mean we will be dropping our gaurd, or that we consider her not to be a risk. We rarely have visitors, and when the boys do have friends round both the dogs stay in their room, most of their friends don't know we even have dogs....... Only YOU know your dog, and what lengths you are prepared to go to to make sure there is not repeat of the performance.

chris, 1st you say you might re-home the dog, then you say you don't want someone coming and taking the dog away from your children. If you re-home it you are taking it away from your children arn't you? also by re-homing it you are passing the problem on to somebody else and the results of that might not be just a nip, it could be a lot worse.

i still feel that as the skin was broken --a tooth went in, that the child could of lost the sight in her eye, it wasnt that far away from it was it/? i think a dog has the option of walkin away, backing off etc, even if not too happy, -if a bites the first response id not be too happy seeing him around kids,

the skin was broken (grazed) and to be honest I think that that is a serious issue. I take your point about loosing an eye, but I think that the bite would have needed to be quite a bit worse to do that. Nevertheless, he has bitten and I dont think that can be ignored and I agree with all of the posts that basically say he cant now be trusted as he once was.

Hi,
If I rehome the dog I will make sure that the new owner knows what's happened. While I'm concerned that he may not be ideal for a home with young children, I definately dont think that he's a dangerous dog. I will take advice from the behaviourist before I decide upon anything.

My concern for someone comming around and taking the dog is based on the following:
1. I dont want him put to sleep and
2. Whatever happens, if he's going to leave our home I'll have time to explain to my children what's happening - I think thet the worst thing for a child is not being able to say goodbye to a treasured friend. My youngest 2 kids could both say Bob before they could say dad

Hello

I would NEVER trust one of my dogs EVER again if they decided to bite a child. For me there would be no option than to have the dog put to sleep , even if it was just a nip that managed to break the skin.

There would be NO second chances for any of my dogs that decided to bite , or nip. Harsh that my sound but responsible people we have to be , when children are at risk.

Im sure if it had of been one of your own children , you would be viewing things VERY differently. Or if it was one of your children that got bitten , or nipped by someone elses dog im sure you would insist on futher action being taken rather than having the dog rehomed and passing the problem on.

HELEN.

edited to say : it sounds like he does have perhaps a food aggression , if you decided to keep him i would try taking his most favorite things off him when he has hold of them , just to try and make him accept that biting over food , or his favorite things , IS NOT acceptable behaviour.

Helen,
I appreciate and respect your views, but please dont assume that you know how I'd be thinking. I tell you with complete honesty, If this was my child I'd be very upset but I am upset anyway. If this was one of my kids, I would be going through the EXACT same deliberations right now. For you to be sure how I'd react, you'd need to know me - and you dont !

You may be right abd responsible and I may be wrong and irresponsible, we'll both have our own opinions on that, but I am responsible enough to want to understand what happened, take expert advice and then decide on the appropriate course of action. Right now, I am not minded to put the dog to sleep. If the telephone advice from the expert behaviourist had recomended that course of action then I would be considering it right now.

Please Helen, have the empathy to accept that someone following a different course of action than you would, is not necessarily irresponsible.

Hello Chris

You are not wrong and irresponsible - you just love your dog :) This is very obvious , i would be very distraught at the fact too if it were my dog - but other peoples opinions and reactions can be very different. And i accept this.

I hope everything turns out okay.

Good Luck with your dog , and let us know what happens with him :)

HELEN

Thanks Helen,
that's definately an idea,
cheers
Chris

good luck chris with whatever you decide, its a very upsetting situation for every1 concerned, i feel for you and hope it works out ok :)

if you feel you cant let him go---then cant you use a secure kennel and run,

thanks, that's definately an option, we are lucky enough to have the space.