Hi,

Not sure if anyone will be able to help, as our vet and specialist vet seem to be stumped so far, but thought I'd ask anyway in case any of you have had similar experiences or are brilliant vets...

We have a baby Rhodesian Ridgeback puppy who is just 13 weeks old today. When she was just 9.5 weeks old she became very listless with a high temperature and we took her into our vet. She had blood tests and was found to be moderately to badly anaemic. She has had many tests since then and it has been found that she has a healthy liver and kidneys, no parasites (internal or external), no signs of toxicity poisoning (well, no vomiting, diarrhoea - the vet doesn't think it's toxicity poisoning) but she has the following:

-Anaemia - low PCV (red blood cell count) = 19 [this should be 35-55] - this seems to be non-regenerative
-Low blood protein
-Enlarged spleen
-Fluctuating temperature (cyclical pyrexia) with a cycle of approximately 48 hours. Lows are about 38.3 degrees (about normal) whilst highs can get to around 40.5 degrees (she had a temperature of 41 degrees when she first presented).

She has been being treated for nearly 4 weeks now. The vet(s) have gone through a number of possible diagnoses, with each being revised as they get new information. The fact that she has perfectly healthy liver, kidneys and no parasites rules out several possibilities. We thought it could be auto-immune haemolytic anemia (where the body's white blood cells attack the red blood cells), possibly as a reaction to the vaccinations she had at 9 weeks old. This could be possible although you'd normally expect to see some RBC breakdown products and also regeneration - neither of which seem to be evident. It is possible that she has an autoimmune problem that's attacking her bone marrow and the red blood cell precursors, although not sure this fits entirely either. Because we have no idea what it is we can't rule out leukaemia or something similar. The specialist tried to take a bone marrow biopsy to give us more information but because she is a pup and has so little bone marrow it seems they didn't get any and so the bone marrow test was inconclusive. Anyway, at present she is on steroids (horrible) and antibiotics with iron supplements. She doesn't seem to be getting any better. However, she doesn't seem to be getting any worse either.

Does anyone know what this could be? Whatever it is it is clearly very rare, as all the vets we've consulted haven't been able to pinpoint a diagnosis with any certainty (to this date). Possibly a very rare infection (anyone up on rare diseases?), or some sort of bone marrow disorder or auto-immune thing. Has anyone heard of or experienced anything similar with such a young pup?

Obviously we are absolutely distraught, and have been through the whole gamut of emotions - denial, despair, anger, and possibly starting to get to the acceptance bit, but it's very hard when you don't know what you are accepting. At the moment I am just trying to be practical about it and glean any information that might lead to a more certain diagnosis, even if it's not a diagnosis we want to hear. We love her so much and it is dreadful not knowing if she is going to live or die, or if she lives what sort of quality of life she is going to have.

I'd love to hear from you if anyone can help or offer suggestions...

So sorry to hear about your pup, unfortunately I have no answers for you, but there's a chap on here called John, who knows a great deal about dogs (although his breed is Labs), with any luck, he'll be along later, and may have some suggestions for you.

Good luck, I hope things work out ok for you and your pup.

liberty

Thanks for your kind words. Hopefully John will pop in soon.. x

Sorry, not much help. I’m not a vet, just very old and seen quite a bit!! My first thoughts are an autoimmune possibly brought on as a reaction to the inoculations but starting at 9.5 weeks I would have thought it was too soon. Although starting only a couple of days or so afterwards is a bit of a coincidence!! Do you know if it is a Regenerative Anaemia or Non Regenerative? The enlarged spleen sounds is in all possibilities where the anaemia is coming from but where did the enlarged spleen come from? It’s part of the Lymphatic system so of course, it makes you think of Leukeamia. Trouble is, the puppy is so young that it makes it hard to check.

I’m guessing that you are in the UK? There is a blood parasite but according to my book it’s not found in the UK. (The sire of dam has not been imported or been abroad for a holiday under the pet passport scheme? Another possibility is Heamangiosarcoma, but I would have thought a puppy of this age would be far too young!

Being really silly, there is no chance of being bitten by an adder? A friend’s Flatcoat was a couple of years ago and had all sorts of autoimmune trouble. You would have thought there would have been some sign but. . . . . . As I said, being really silly.

Please keep in touch on this.

Regards, John

John, I've never known any of your advice to be silly, give yourself a pat on the back for taking time out to answer questions, and have a large malt too!!!

liberty;)

Hi John, thanks for your reply. Yes, it is possible that it's an autoimmune reaction brought on by the vaccinations, and although it doesn't add up completely, that still doesn't rule it out. I think the anaemia is weakly regenerative - that is, her PVC (red blood cell count) is more or less stable, which indicates that there is some regeneration or otherwise it would be decreasing as the old blood cells die. However, the regeneration is clearly not enough for us to see a rise in her PVC. Re. the spleen - as far as I understand from the vets its enlargement could be associated with a number of possible diagnoses. Yes, it is difficult to check for Luekaemia in a pup so young because they have so little bone marrow. Also my husband did a search online for +puppy +leukaemia and came up with nothing - which indicates it is extremely rare in one so young. Dam and sire have been in the UK all the time as far as I know. The Sire was a Kenyan import, but that was several years ago.

Thanks for the suggestion about the adder. It is possible I suppose, as we do live out in the sticks and our neighbours have reported sightings of adders in the wood behind us. I'll do a bit of research about that. She was limping a little while before she got ill, but I thought that was because my husband stood on her foot! As you have said, you would have thought there would be some sign, but it is a very strange case altogether, so we don't want to rule anything out until we have investigated it.

Thanks once again for your time and concern, Imp.

Hi Imp, sorry to hear about your pup. I`d say the vacc`s have almost certainly got something to do with it.
Can you get in touch with a homeopathic vet? They have a lot of experience with vaccine damage related illness & may be able to help you, also advice on feeding your sick pup, which would help him as well.
I`ve nursed a dog with Babesia, a tick born illness with similar symptoms that your describing, anaemia with fluctuating temperature but it wouldn`t be that.
Other than a h/pathic vet I can`t think of any other advice but I understand what your going thru & hope you get a diagnosis soon for him.

Christine, Spain.

We spoke to a recommended 'holistic practitioner' in Oxford yesterday, who is also fully trained in conventional veterinary medicine. We are going to go and see him for some additional help (alongside our usual and specialist vets). As you say, he suggested formulating an optimal diet for her and may be able to help in other ways. Thanks for the suggestion :)

Leukemia is rare in young children but there are a number of "Pockets" of childhood Leukemia around atomic installations including Aldermaston! I notice you mention Oxford???? Apart from Aldermaston Harwell is only just around the corner.

It would be interesting to know if it is regenerative or non regenerative. This would really be a pointer to the reason. even non regenerative does not mean 100% non regenerative and the spleen damage would point to a degree of non regeneration of red blood cells.

Babeiosis was what I was thinking about when I asked if any dog had been abroad Christine. We don't have it over here so as you say, that rules that one out!

It's an interesting one this! Sorry Imp, I know it's something other than interesting to you and I only wish we could be more help.

Regards, John

Knew you were thinking of that J! :) :)

Christine, Spain.

Thats good Imp, hope he`ll be able to help :) Your email is hidden, so I`ve sent a paper to John & he can forward it to you if you give him your email, it`s on immune system & AI diseases & diets, it might be useful to you. Have you checked for systemic lupus erythematosus, long shot but some of the symtoms are bit similar.
Good luck.

Christine, Spain.

Hi Imp.
Christine's article is far too long to post on here. If you want to, click on my name on this post and you will see my email address. If you like to email me i'll forward it to you.

Regards, John

Hi,

Thanks for the offer of the paper Christine. I have emailed John for it. It sounds very interesting - the more information the better. My hubbie (the one of us with the medical training!) says he knows about systemic lupus erythematosus and has thought about it but thinks we'd be seeing other syptoms as well. However, nothing is ruled out at the moment, and all these sorts of things are being held as possibilities until we have any more certain diagnosis. Keep those suggestions coming if you think of anything else though!

Looking forward to getting the paper John - thanks for all your help.

Imp

It's on it's way to you Imp.

Best wishes, John

Thanks John. All your help (and others!) is much appreciated. Imp

As you, I would be reluctant to feed raw meat, be it bones or whatever to a dog with a possibly suppressed immune system. There are so many possible problems, salmonella and e-coli to name but 2. In actual fact I've not fed bones in the last 30 plus years. Dogs may like them but they are by no means essential and in some ways not even desirable.

The dogs sense of smell is far more important to it than taste so something strong smelling might help her to start eating. For years now I've given my dogs Pilchards in Tomato sauce every Sunday lunch time and with the strong smell it might just tempt her. If it did then maybe just little on her usual food might keep her eating.

Just a few thoughts, John

Thanks once again for your advice. I am wondering why you think bones are 'in some ways not even desirable'? Are you talking about raw bones or cooked / smoked? Just interested to hear of your experience.

It is odd that there is so much conflicting advice about raw feeding and raw bones. In Billinghurst's book he categorically states that bacteria (e.g. salmonella) are no problem to dogs. However, further research online suggests that bacteria is a very real risk for dogs (scientific research sources). I have to say that I'm going to err on the side of caution.

Thanks for the tip about Pilchards! I will try that at lunchtime. You've been consistently sensible and helpful. Thanks so much.

Imp

Bones:-
Cooking bones increases their hardness making them brittle with the attendant risk of splintering so really, it should be uncooked only. I fed bones to my dogs for years, In the old days the local family butcher called twice a week to deliver fresh meat and in those days we had fresh knuckle bones delivered, Tuesdays and Fridays If I remember rightly. And they were free!!! The problem with bones is that they are abrasive and the enamel on a dogs teeth is not as thick or as hard as the enamel on wild "Dog Type" animals such as wolves and the like. This means that there is a risk of wearing the enamel and the dog developing tooth decay.
I must say though, I never had a dog with tooth decay either before or after stopping feeding bones! At least up to a month ago when I found Anna had a single bad tooth in a mouth of sparkling teeth. I can only assume that it was caused by some damage such as a chip!

Salmonella:-
I really don’t know! It is a fact that a dog's stomach is capable of using food which our stomach would throw straight out! It's built that way to be able to cope with "Gamey" meat. In the wild the dog like animals kill when they find something then eat their fill. But that is not their only food. They can subsist on fruit or vegetation but more importantly carrion. Having seen some of the bones my first dog dug up!! Some walked in the door on their own feet!! I really can't imagine that they were wholesome, but they never did him any harm!

So saying the above, you are not dealing with a fit healthy dog but a very poorly puppy and whether the above would hold true for her I really don’t know. I would worry!

Best wishes, John

in humans, (or any animal), with suspected immunity problems, the feeding of raw food is not recommended at all. this is because bacteria may be present which the person/pet cannot protect himself against. in humans even things like salad are not recommended...everything must be freshly cooked. meat can contain all sorts of viruses, salmonella would certainly kill a dog with low immunity :(

Thanks both. Imp