Heeello again!

This one goes along with my other post (Toy poodle, for better or for worse) and I *will* keep it simple and to the point! But it is a seperate matter, and on a topic that can't possibly be mine alone to worry about, so I thought I'd write a seperate post!

My pup is 8mo old and not yet spayed. I intend to have that procedure performed as I won't be breeding her, and I'd like to catch her before her first heat.

At what age do bitches generally go into their first heat?
How do you know it's coming on?
Is it true that you shouldn't spay them while they're in heat?
How long after should you wait before you have the operation?

Thanks, that's all!
Dani

Well I would never consider spaying until the pup was fully adult, so my advice is don't do it until after the bitch has had at least 1 season and better still 2. In the UK you may find it hard to find a vet to do it anyway although in the USA it had become the norm although I understand they are now changing their minds following a number of problems.

Hi Dani,

Congratulations on taking the plunge - she sounds sweet!

Bitches can have their first season anywhere between 6 months and 12 months (sometimes even later) but often the smaller breeds come in earlier. So she could come in at any time. The signs to look for are a swelling of her vulva, increased frequency of urination (almost 'marking') and increased licking. If you see this, check her every morning by pressing a clean white tissue against her vulva when she first gets up from rest. If you see a pinkiness, she is coming in. When you see the first spots of blood on her bed or the floor she has definitely started.

The safest time (form the bitch's health point of view) to spay is when the hormones are at their most quiescent and the blood supply to the uterus is least. This time is the "anoestrus" and starts about 3 months after the start of her season. So it stands to reason you won't know when this is until she has has her first season.

Bitches are spayed before their first season, but there is anecdotal evidence to show that they are more likely to suffer longterm health problems.

Good luck.
:)

Tell me more!

I am in the US, and here it is the norm to catch them before their first heat - 6 or 7 months is said to be a good age.

What sort of problems do they have if spayed before a heat (heat cycle? How do you say it?)? I've never heard of this. I've never heard of anything but spaying them beforehand! All the shelters, other owners, even my vet has said this! How strange that the norm is so different for us!

I'm "under contract" to spay her soon, but I'm sure if I presented the previous owner with a well put together "report", she'd let me have my way; it was just a safe guard to make sure I'm not a backyard breeder or anything.

Is the information widespread and easy to find? If so, why do almost all of the shelters fix their pups when they're weeks old? Are they just blatantly ignoring what's out there, or are they focusing more on the future overpopulation of dogs in general and less on the future health of the particular dog?

So weird! Granted, I've not looked into it at all, but seriously - never even heard about it! Is it a very big issue, or not so much and that's why people here don't pay much attention to it?

(By the way, thanks! She's wooonderful!)

Hi Dani,
I think you summed it up pretty accurately with your comment "are they focussing more on the future over-population of dogs in general, and less on the future health of the particular dog".

Spayed bitches, and especially those spayed early, tend to be more likely to suffer from urinary incontinence, which, judging by some of the posts here, can be very distressing to both bitch and owner, and can result in lifetime medication being required. We have heard of the new US fashion for operating on baby puppies, and most vets over this side of "the pond" throw up their hands in horror at the idea of putting a tiny puppy though such major surgery. But then I understand there is a huge canine overpopulation problem in the US, far greater than we have, so a cynic may get the impression that the vets and shelters think "If it goes wrong, there's plenty more where that came from".

Also the vets aren't the ones who have to live with the consequences - it's the owners. And if the owners don't report the problems, who's going to know?

The Guide Dog Association (seeing-eye dogs) always let their bitches have one season before they spay them to make sure they are fully grown mentally and physically - these are animals who need to have long healthy working lives so they can't afford to take any chances. Their males are never castrated before at least 10 months of age for the same reason.

Certainly at 6 to 7 months old I would have said it was rather late to spay until after the first season. The operation is far simpler between seasons than on the run up to a season. I know it can be done, I had a bitch who had to be spayed for a medical reason just as she started her season, but it is not desirable. I would personally never have a bitch spayed until after the first season (Unless of course for medical reasons) :)

Regards, John

john have you heard how sue hazel is.

terri

Not heard a thing from Sue since I posted last time Terri, I'll ring her tomorrow evening then post on here.

Regards, John

Wow? I too am surprised at the different approaches in age. I am in the states and have an appointment scheduled for my dog for when she turns 6 months. This is scary. I want to do right by the dog, but I am in no position to risk her pregnancy. Now, I am unsure. I have never from anyone or dog owner heard of health problems from an 6 month spay. I have heard it will greatly impact reduce chances for many cancers. I don't know what to think.

Apparently the "cancer risk" study was done from studies on a total of 60 bitches (hardly a representative number!) and many vets are challenging the results.

I am interested. What study? I'd like to know when I discuss with my vet.

The cancer scare is not longer considered worth considering, as the likely hood of spaying being strongly connected to mammary tumour is not now accepted, even some insurance will not now pay out if your dog is spayed when having a tumour removed. Mammary tumours also occur in the male.

There are two main problems connected with having an early spay. The vulva not reaching maturity and remaining in the infantile state can cause any number of problems including incontinence. The other problem is that the sex hormones produced by the ovaries are needed for the rest of the animal to grow to full maturity, so the younger you spay the more likely it is the animal will not grow to full maturity. Apart from that there may be a change in the coat and in heavy coated breeds this can lead to skin trouble and also there is some thought that spaying may induce early onset arthritis.

Your dog may suffer from none of the more usual problems or may suffer from all sorts of problems, the worse by far is the drop in natural immunity, often caused by having to take drugs to counteract the other problems affecting the dog, like drugs to control pain and kill the irritation of the skin.

I would never spay unless for medical reasons, and would advice others to leave it as late as possible.
.

What about the argument that, like children, younger dogs are more resiliant, and can bounce back after surgeries easier and faster?

That was the argument my pup's previous owner gave. She's a vet-tech, and is very adamant when saying the sooner, the better. "Research all you want," says she, her opinion stands firm, and that's the way a lot of vets and staff seem to feel around here.

If the research (I agree, what research? Where can I find it?) on cancer had such a bad test range, how many animals have been studied for making these claims? Have the studies mostly been done in England? That wouldn't be a *good* excuse, but it would provide *some* excuse for the ... ignorance? close mindedness?... of proffessionals around here.

Besides overcrowding, which really is a problem here in the US, especially in the cities, so really, I can see why they're so gung ho. Heaven forbid it, but if my (or anyone else's) pup got out and the escape resulted in a pregnancy, it's adding to the problem and could have been prevented with this early spaying. It's terrible, but it's the truth. There are several - I don't really know if you'd call them shelters - in the big cities that keep the dogs for 7 or 9 days then put the to sleep, and there are aaalways dogs (people and shelters rescue from these places of course, but they're there). Pounds are crammed, shelters overextending themselves... Yeah, owners aren't careful, so it *is* a problem... a big problem... and I've sort of already said it, but perhaps vets are turning a blind eye to the needs of the individual in the name of the betterment of society...

blah... still sucks for the individual... especially when it's MY individual (there's that selfish teenager side of me shining through *grin*) What are the chances of problems showing up after an early spay? And about how old is the bitch before the problems come out?

Pups and Children can cope with an operation OK. It is the bits you are removing that are concerned with the future growth of the animal that matters. If you remover the womb from a 5 or 6 year old child that child would not complete it’s growth in a normal way and she would have to be given drugs.

Just because a dog or a human has their reproductive organs does not mean the have to procreate. It’s all a matter of care.

"What are the chances of problems showing up after an early spay?" I understand that the chances are quite high, although you may not realise that your dogs problems are related to the spay.
"And about how old is the bitch before the problems come out?" Old bitches are like old ladies they may or may not have health problem in latter life, when you think about it we all die of something. I have had several bitches and none of them have died of illnesses connected to their femaleness.

Hi,
As far as I can discover, the cancer tests were an American study, whether that is relevant or not I don't know!

As Jackie says, removal of the source of hormones before physical maturity alters the physical development of the animal. The external sex organs tend to remain smaller, which in a bitch can lead to urine scald (think permanent nappy (diaper) rash), and with males the urethra tends to remain narrower, making urinary stone blockage more likely. The operation should indeed be likened to operating on a child - yes they recover faster from surgery, but will need hormone replacement to enable them to develop as they should.

We have several monthly dog publications in the UK, and the "problem pages" often contain reference to 'my 18 month old bitch was spayed at 6 months and has now started leaking urine' - as you know urinary incontinence is not normal in a young animal! It has been found that, with an early spay, the muscles at the neck of the womb that help hold the bladder in place and control its flow are weakened, causing the incontinence.

Your girl is a toy breed, so will be more mature at the same age compared to a larger breed, so may not be affected. However that still doesn't get away from the problems of operating near a season when the hormones are active. That is why it is usual over here to spay midway between the first and second season. The bitch is leastlikely to have longterm problems.

I have just been looking through various articles, and apparently the statistics on mammary tumours in unspayed bitches is based on one small study of 60 bitches carried out in California many years ago. A further review of this study has shown that other factors, such as age and genetics, may have influenced the result.

Many vets (conventional and homoeopathic/holistic) are beginning to believe that a dog's reproductive system is not an "optional extra"!
:)

Hi Dani,

I personally think you have waited too long for an early spay. The closer to a season is the more complicated a spay operation because the womb is engorged and there is a greater chance of profuse bleeding.

Please keep in mind that the chances of your bitch encountering problems from spaying are really very small - even for incontinence. Any bitch can become incontinent, what we are talking about is are slightly higher chance of it happening at an unusually early age. You can balance that against slightly less of a risk of mammary tumours from early spaying.

The chances of health problems from early spaying are NOT quite high. If incontinence, for example, were a common problem from early spaying then the practice would have ended years ago in the U.S. - even with consideration to overpopulation. Either that or it would have been limited to dogs in shelters where population control is priority number one. Not to mention no one would every want a bitch if incontinence was likely to happen post spaying.

My Cairn is now 11 months old and scheduled to be spayed in a couple of weeks. She finished her first season two months ago. As I am from the U.S. but now live in the U.K. I was rather surprised that my vet refused to spay before the first season. However, in thinking it through it makes absolute sense that an animal is able to develop physically to adulthood before they are neutered. It's not so much health problems that they encounter, but arrested development of bone and muscle structure. Not dangerous per se, but not the way it should be either. With a mini poodle at 8 months, however, she is probably at or very close to physical maturity anyway. Animals that have had their just one season are still young enough to rebound very quickly post surgery.

I would talk to the previous own (breeder?) if you feel obligated to do so, but hold off spaying until she is past her first season, if for no other reason than she is likely too close to it now to spay.

Stacey

Hi Stacy, how many spayed and how many intact bitches have you owned?

Jackie,

How many spayed and unspayed bitches I've owned is not really relevant. I've owned both spayed and unspayed bitches none have had problems with urinary incontinence. The only one that had a real problem with incontinence was not of the urinary variety and was due to old age. I have never known anyone with an unspayed or spayed bitch that was incontinent before it might be expected to happen once in a while, eg, in advanced old age.

It's studies that have been done and recommendations by veterinary bodies that are relevant. And you can find studies and reports on both sides of the argument - spay early and spay late. However, the fact is that right or wrong early spay is standard practice in the U.S. and it is not a practice that would have continued for long if the incidence of incontinence resulting from spaying was very common.

What's your point in asking me anyway? I personally would now never spay a bitch before the first season.

Stacey

My dog Ruby is in season at the moment, she is 8 months old. Well into her second week now and the poor wee thing is spotting every where! I have to follow her around with baby wipes! :D

Took her to the vet the other day and he told me to get her spayed 3 months from the START of her season. Apparently if you do it beore that time there can be a problem with them bleeding/haemorraging after the op, due to all the raging hormones and the blood being thinner, and the womb larger or something.

She should hopefully finish her season next week, and maybe start getting back to normal :)

Helen

Helen,

Some dogs have a short cycle between seasons - 4 rather than the average of 6 months, so spaying three months after the start is about right for most bitches, which is about mid-cycle. Especially since it is impossible to know after only one season what the normal time would be between seasons.

If Ruby is typical the spotting should not be a problem for her entire season, so you probably will not need too many more baby wipes. :-)

Stacey

thanks Stacey

I seem to have little red polka dots everywhere at the moment! She does try to keep herself clean though, bless her, licking like a pup possessed! Hopefully she will be finished soon and can enjoy her walks again :)

Helen