Hi,

I am currently looking for a different bloodline to add to my breeding stock. I have come across a lovely puppy but have a question for you. The puppies mum and dad are related ?? i.e. The dad is also the mothers dad, i didn't think father should mate with daughter ?? please advise.

Ta
Donna

It depends very much on the individual breed, and whether this mating was done by someone with a lot of experience of close line-breeding for a very good reason, or if it was because they breeder was too idle or too ignorant to find a suitable stud dog. When you know the answer to this, it will help you in your decision. Bear in mind some breeds have very small gene pools and a certain amount of close line breeding is inevitable.

I would want to see the rest of the pedigree as well. Is this an isolated case or is this kind of breeding repeated throughout the pedigree? My first black and tan was the result of a mother/son mating (an accident in that case, they thought the mother had finished in season) and I discussed it with friends who had plenty of experience and also with my vet before deciding to purchase this puppy (who in colour and coat was exactly what I wanted). A friend did use him once at stud and I got his daughter who has been my foundation bitch, but we were very careful with that mating and she was not related in any way. No bad traits have been passed on by using him.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

I don't know very much about breeding but that sounds too close for my liking.

Fiona

If I'm wrong I'd love to know. :)

What breed is she?, As i think that interbreeding is not a good thing it only premotes close inheritated problems, but as Sam said if the breed of dog is not well known is this country they may have to be interbreeding to keep the line going.

The puppy is Pekingese, the breeders seem to be reputable and the dogs are all happy and well groomed all looking very healthy. I have been breeding for 5 years but have never inter bred or purchased interbred pups before. i was told that because both father and daughter have such lovely temprement (and they really do) they were bred to keep this trait ?

Oooh, have to say, with this new information, I do not think this is reason enough for such a close mating, sorry!

You may want to take a look at these sites concerning 'inbreeding' and line-breeding:

Inbreeding and Line Breeding
Pros and Cons of Inbreeding

There are countless other articles if you want to use a search engine: try using 'inbreeding'.

I was always taught that inbreeding can either be highly catastrophic or will firmly tie in the traits that you are looking to enhance. It should, therefore, only be considered by very experienced breeders who understand the entire pedigree and are not just looking at the two animals involved. I have seen highly successful father/daughter and mother/son breedings. I have also seen very successful breedings of half-siblings.

To understand how it works you need to consider that the father has 100% of the genes being mated to the daughter who has 50% of his genes and 50% of her mother. In the case of half-siblings, the gene pool would be more diversified.

I am racking my brain trying to remember which old timer advised me to always breed back to the grandfather to solidify lines.

Inbreeding does occur naturally in the wild. It is important though to remember to out-cross eventually since the line can become 'too in-bred'.

iam thinking of doing half/siblings mating with borther/sister,both have the same sire,but both of them were out cross matings,the only reason why is,the borther has produced stocks with no hip/eyes problam,and a jw winner,the sister again done the same with her litter and jw winner has well.the sister went to her first stud dog 2 year.and that was a outcross breeding and there was problams, but both of them have great temparments and live well together,with a total of 5 dogs in the house, the irsh setter that won crufts i think he was a half/siblings mateing.

I think you are safe enough on half siblings ,provided they are both good specimens of the breed , you say they are ,so you just have to take the risk of doubling up on any of the present faults .One thing is for certain you are bound to get something nice out the litter as well.I advise you to go and talk to the breeders of those lines. Ask if there was anything they bred out you should knowabout that may have the chance of cropping up again. I think you are going to be ok though as you said the brother produced stock without any health problems. The thing you need to ask yourself and no one else is are you willing to go for it and if you are then do . please do go to the lets talk breeding and get a more thorough insight into the plusses and the negative side to inbreeding and good luck with your decision mari

if you breed brother & sister can you reg'd the pups with the CKC ? Canadian Kennel Club

Hi Guest , You would be best to call the CKC and ask as the rules can be different from KC to KC.

I think you can but IMHO can't understand why you would honestly want to. As I understand brother to sister and father to mother are just too close and you can end up with trouble sometimes unnoticeable for a while.

Sorry to give my opinion also, but just felt I should and unless this has been a mistake breeding I would have thought it best to avoid.

Some of the more expereinced line breeders or breeders should be along to help.

BFN

Pam

Are these the 2 Yorkies you asked about breeding on another thread?

I don't know much about line breeding but IMO I thought breeding brother to sister really shouldn't be done.
I know another thread said you should use a smaller dog than bitch to try and avoid producing pups too large for Mum but something else I was wondering about - if you mated them and they're both about 3lbs weight. Are they likely to produce pups that will weigh even less than 3lbs when full grown?

I'm just wondering if anyone could advise you on that because I've seen elsewhere that the smaller the Yorkie the more chance of health problems etc.
Dot

l have a well established line here i like the type i produce but admittengly my bitches lack bone.
so i decided to click into a line which is reknown for there bone and substance i thought id cheat and jump a few generations and when i found out a father to daughter mating had been done i booked a dog puppy.
this line was very good the father a CH and the mum litter sister of a CH so i thought this would work for me.
anyway cut a long story short
despite the temperaments of both parents being fabulous the litter were killers one was put to sleep at a young age and others have suspect temps mine included although i was probably one of the lucky ones i could train and help my boy he was castrated and rehomed a few weeks ago to fabulous home with bully experience and they are over the moon i couldnt risk no matter how nice(show wise) he was he loved us and we did him and i actually miss him but im afraid the whole litter was too suspect i do not want that in my line that is the most important factor in breeding especially a breed like bull terriers who have such incredible power. Temperment must be of the upmost importance in breeding dogs.
so i would be very cautious in such close breeding maybe a coincidence but i certainly wouldnt risk it.
vicki

Now I have just done had a line bred mating{quiet close}but only on the grand parents and ggrand parents and had 2 cleft palate puppies.
And I have seen a litter of puppies from a mother son mating and 2 had water on the brain and sadly were PTS.
another mother son mating produced a brain damaged deaf puppy and miss marks.
I think you have to have EXTENSIVE knowlage of the pedigree to do a very close mating as too mnay people keep quiet about any deformed/sick pupies due to this kind of thing.Someting I just wouldn't do or risk just for a stud fee especially after hand rearing 2 cleft pups!!
It may be best to check with the dogs breeder or find out if any such mating from lines that close has happened and if there were any problems.
I know of a friend with a very good kennel who notes each mating with the pedigree ect and keeps records of litter size,sex ect and any problems so that if a bitch comes to her that is linked to any problem lines she recommends that it would not be the best thing to do

I think there is always a risk
My mum always said that a mating that close with either produce the most wonderful puppies{ie show conformation temp ect} or a really badly conformed litter. Some people are prepared to risk though

It depends entirely what is behind dam and sire. Many characteristics, both good and bad, skip a generation or more and surface again. That is why before any mating is attempted, extensive research should be undertaken into the virtues and faults of all ancestors and what they have produced. By doubling up on a shared ancestor, the chances of producing both virtues and problems are doubled too. If there are similar faults on both sides, then with inbreeding they will surely emerge. The problem, as always, is with breeders insufficient knowledge and experience. If the lines contain many virtues but few minor faults, the close mating can be extremely beneficial. Any mating can only produce what is already in the genes.

Absolutely, Val! The major problem that I see is that few breeders are willing to be totally honest about the problems within their lines. It's only by chance statements that we seem to uncover potential problem areas. Perhaps from fear of being ostracized or economics (puppies not sold/stud dogs not used). Whatever it is from it does the world of dogs absolutely no good. We need to know potential carriers in order to breed responsibly.

Doing a very close inbreeding simply because the dogs have produced 'winners' is, in my own opinion, not reason enough. Inbreeding, again my opinion, should be done when you have dogs which appear to be clear of major genetic problems.

Some people who are not extensively familiar with the ENTIRE pedigree (not just a couple of generations) and inbreed fail to realize that the dogs can look great, be free of apparent disorders and still be carriers. So when you're doubling up on the pedigree, you're also doubling up on the carriers and possibly of unleashing that problem.

Inbreeding is not a nasty thing, but it is something that only the very experienced and those tough enough to handle the risks should do.

the only reason i am think of doing half/siblings,is just what you said about other breeder beenig honest with you,when i have ask about other studs dogs the breeder say no problams behind this one,but then you hear around chinsese whispers that there is a problam.but wispa first litter had a bad mouth,which even the stud owner use him on her bitch before wispa mating and got the same result of 3 dogs,which at the time the stud owner didnot know about this problam, beacuse the two bitches were mated within 6 weeks of each other,and the result of the mouth dose not show up untill 12 weeks,i have seen the results of my two dogs what they have produced,and the results of eyes/hips.of their pups,i am not puting them together beacuse of show wins it beacuse of their results tests and temperament.if i know there is a problam i would not use any of my stock for breeding ,like harley my other flatcoat dog he comes from good stock but hes ended up with high hips/ and not pass his eyes tested,but hes a good worker /and as very good temperament,but beacuse he not pass his test hes not going to be use,but ever breeding progamm you do going to be a gamble,

You're right, it's all a gamble. I just like calculated risks better than unknowns. Outcrosses, while maintaining the vigor of the dogs, can also throw some curveballs if we don't have all the information that we should. I applaud your decision to do the mating based on health. To me any good breeding program has to take the following equally: conformation (because dogs that are not put together well cannot do what they were bred to do equally as well as those that are); health; working ability; temperament.

Dr. Padgett has a very interesting article on 'Prioritizing Genetics'. Look for it soon.

Thankyou all very much for your views.. I think I'll leave this one as I would rather feel 100% at ease with the backrounds on my breeding stock and don't quite feel comftable with this situation.. i think I'll stick with what I have.

Thanks again - it has been an eye opener

Donna

Donna i breed rottys and i would not breed my bitch with a member of her family, i travelled over 100 miles for her so that she was not related to the stud dog i have, there are too many problems with interbreeding.

Debbie and Cleo
I know what you mean but, literally, what you have posted makes little sense.
It is too common in many breeds that closely bred progeny are in all areas of the country and the mere fact of travelling makes little difference. For example I could go 10 miles up the road to a dog that is not at all closely related to mine. BUT I could travel 200, 300 or even 400 miles and still get a closely bred dog.
Mileage makes no difference in breeding it is the dogs in the pedigree that matter.

How far back in a pedigree does one go before a dog is not related???

Once again we get to the inbreeding line-breeding and out cross debate.

what i ment was i went the 100 mile away to make it easyer on finding a bitch that was not related, i did also check her pedigree against buds papers.I dont know how far back someone would go to interbreed, i am new to this breeding i have only been doing it 12 months so i am still learning myself, and i do enjoy it as well.

You only have to look at Flatcoats where at one time just after the war there were only 16 registered dogs in the country to realise that in all breeds there is in/line breeding to some degree. It's inescapable. Very close inbreeding is a tool for experienced breeders only. A very good knowledge of exactly what the line carries is essential otherwise the venture is fraught with disaster.

Regards, John

Exactly, John. We do line breed, after meticulous research into the pedigrees going back at least 5 generations, and 8 if possible. We keep our own 'database' not only of attributes and faults but of potential hereditary problems of the dogs we are interested in and there siblings. You need a sound knowledge of the breed, and it is essentail you are completely honest with yourself about your own dogs strenghts and weaness, what you are looking for, and what the stud has to offer that can complement you good points without adding to the weak ones. Was talking to someone at SKC who had just had first 2 litters (only a couple of weeks apart) she was delighted to tell me, that after the pups were born, having had a look at the pedigrees, she was thrilled to find she was line breeding! I smiled through gritted teeth, and something non-committal. Neither the dog nor the bitch used had any particular merit, all she was doing was perpetuating mediocre examples of the breed, with a worrying possibility of HC lurking in the background of the pedigree!
I think that is possibly one the most important things to consider - the main reason for line breeding is to fix type - if your dogs have not got sufficient good points that you would want fixed in the breed, why on earth add yet more middle of the road attributes - you are fixing lack of quality, something which few can actually hope to acheive!

To cut what could be a long diatribe short (this is one of my hobby horses) line breeding is not for novices, and should never be consider with less than good specimens of the breed, with thourough background/pedigree knowledge. (sorry if I am repeating myself)
Gwen