hi all could any one give me some advice on my 5 month old stafford bitch called Sky, firstly we had her on a collar and lead but she was pulling so much that people stopped us down the street and told us to get her a harness as people told us that she would damage herself on a normal collar, we joined puppy training and the instructor told us to put on her a half check as harnesses make them pull more, she then pulled so much that she made her neck red raw but we carried on for a week and she still pulled and made a horrible mess of her neck, so we put her back on the harness as we feel we have more control over her and she won't harm herself so much, she still pulls especially when we r in a crowd of people as she wants to see everyone.
Not sure what to do as some people ask us why we have got her on a harness and others say we should carry on using the harness who is right and who is wrong???
Thanks for your time
Kerry

Lots of Staffies pull .
Gus is 10 months now and when he is in the Ring he will walk well but once outside on his walk he is pulling away . Everything is so exciting on a walk .
I would never put a Staffy on a choke chain . They are very strong little dogs for their size and as you have already seen he can damage his neck .
What type of harness are you using ??
I used a leather harness on my previous Staffy and he walked much better for me . I felt I was able to walk him better plus he wasnt putting any strain on his neck .
It is a matter of persistance at getting him to walk at your side - and one I must admit I havent completely mastered with Gus at 10 months :(

Hi,

If your happy with the harness then stay with it, I must admit I think I might be lucky as my 9 month old Stafford bitch pretty much walks by my side on or off the lead when told to. The first initial half dozen or so steps she's excitable, then she's back to normal. When she was tiny I spoke her name, squeaked her toy anything that kept her attention, and her by my side. She thinks it more enjoyable with me than not.
I know loads of people "suffer" with Staffs pulling but perserverance is the key start as you mean to go on, be it on a harness or collar. Pulling back with a Staff rarely works in my experience as they think of it as a game of tug. Encourage her with a ball/toy/squeaky toy/food whatever she enjoys the most.

Karen

hi Karen,
Thanks for replying - I do find with Sky that reverse psychology seems to be the key - No just does not work - if she's chewing something she's not supposed to then instead of shouting No until I'm blue in the face I say leave and treat her when she does. No seems to make her do it more - stubborn little pup!

Hi Lel Thanks for replying to my message - apart from the pulling Sky has been a dream - she learnt all the other commands really quickly. It's funny when you are out and about there seems to be so many people who have or did own Staffies and they all have different ideas about them. You mentioned Gus walks well in the ring - how do you know if your Staff is show standard ? Is there anyone you could take your dog to for assessment or anything? Sky stands beautifully and I'd be really proud to enter shows with her.

Gus's breeder shows so I think thats where we got the enthusiasm from originally .
If Skyes breeder doesnt show then
The only way to truly know is to get out there and give it a go ;)
What colour is she by the way ??

Lel,
Sky is black with a white chest, chin and white paws. She has tiny markings of brindle here and there but only if you look closely. She seems to have all the typical Stafford features - rose ears, pump handle tail, standard face shape etc. I wouldn't know where to begin with shows - would I have to train her with special commands??

She sounds quite similar to Gus wth regard to colouring except for the paws :)
Take her along to Ringcraft also known as Handling Class and they will teach you how to stand your dog for the judge to look her over and how to walk her in the ring .
What line is she from ??
Where abouts are you incase I can recommed a class ??

You could try a halti or a dogmatic collar, both of these stop my staff pulling, although she hates wearing them and will roll about trying to get them off. However, when you are forced to keep your dog on a lead it does make life easier :) I can actually lead her on one finger with them on (not that I do that on a regular basis, but it illustrates the point :D )

Helen

Hi Helen,
Thanks for replying - I have tried every brand and design of collar / harness! But in the end I decided continuity will probably be best for so I'm sticking with the harness for the time being.

Hi Kerry,
I use a plain flat collar on my 11 month old male Staff. I found the best way to stop him pulling (yes, they all try it) is to stop the second she starts pulling, then take a few steps backwards. Do not say anything whilst doing this. Do this every time she pulls and she'll soon get the idea that she will not get any where when she pulls. Only go forwards when you have a slack lead. I've found this works on all dogs (I used to foster dogs for our local rescue charity, and also have five of my own) no matter what type of collar you use. Please don't use a choke chain, imagine what this would feel like on your own neck!! Half check collars are great, but it sounds as though this one did not fit correctly, as it should never pinch the neck.
Hope this helps you.
If you would like more advice, please contact me by e-mail. (find under my details)

Sarah.

Hi Sarah
we tried the stop and go method with Gus when he was younger and it got to the point where he would automatically sit down when we stopped as though it was a normal part of his walk .

Hi lel,
Did you walk that couple of paces backwards, and then move off straight away?

We stopped and waited -and then would walk until the pulling started again and then repeat . We Never walked backwards though . Do yo think thats why we failed and if so why is the walking backwards important ? We also tried changing direction too. The best way so far is to hold my arm out infront and keep his attention ( as though holding a treat) and to say "good boy" frequently .

Im intrigued as 4 months on were still battling with pulling and stopping and starting, and using a gentle leader. We were told to train him to walk on a loose lead by clicking and treating when the lead was slack and if he pulls stop take 2 steps back to shift the dog s balance off leaning forward and get him to come back to us. We go on when the lead is slack and repeat and repeat .......funny he can walk beside me for ages then just forgets and pulls.....

Hiya Lel,
Yes, the walking backwards does seem to make a big difference, not sure why, but it's worked with every dog I've trained to walk on a slack lead (and that's quite a few). I walk all five (2 x GSDs, 1 mali, 1 big x-breed and my Staff) of mine together, and I'm only 5'4". I was taught the "stop and backwards" trick by a behaviourist I went to last year. She also said that after you have stopped and gone backwards a few steps, move forward immediately, (that would stop the sitting, lying down etc.) The changing direction is quite good aswell, that tends to keep them watching you a bit more closely, and sticking a bit closer to your side. As I said to Kelly, it's worth a try, at least you're not fighting with your dog or using harsh chains etc.

Sarah.

Will definately give it a go
Thankyou :)
Lel

Hi lel,
Let me know how you get on.

lol Sarah.

Another helpful tip along the way is to only let the dog off lead when it has walked just a few steps on a loose lead. If you let them off for a walk just as or after they have pulled you to the park, their reward is free running and playing - yippeee ;)

Whereas if you insist on a few steps, just one step even to start, they start to realise that loose lead means a nice reward.

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,
I agree with you totally. Otherwise you get dragged up to the park!! It's Malinois by the way. I bought her from Rutland, she was 9 months old and had never been socialised, or away from the farm!! The poor mite had also been kicked out of the pack, so you can imagine the work I've had, and still have with her!!!! I love her to pieces, and can now do just about anything with her, but she's still very unsure of other people (unless in the house, where she feels secure) and can't cope with other dogs appart from my own. I've been to a very good behaviourist who taught me about the five minute rule etc., but we seem to have come to a standstill. I don't want to push her too far too soon. It's taken me two years to get this far!! Any advice would be very welcome!!

lol
Sarah

Have you tried t touch massage before walks to relax your dogs ? just a thought

t touch site

Hi there Moonmaiden,
My lot don't pull anymore thank goodness!! Although I'd be interested in trying the T-touch on my Malinois to see if it would help.

Sarah.

Poor girlie :(

But it sounds as if you have done wonders with her- not socialised at 9 months is so bad. As you'll know, all BSDs can be a bit reserved with people ;) MIne is the opposite, as i socialised her like mad. She even loves the postie :) I've found the main thing is trust, get your BSD to trust you and you can work on any other issue. I've heard of the 5 minute rule - can you tell me more?

Lindsay

Just a quick aside, but Mali fan, is that a Mali-nois or a Mali -amute (!!!)

Just wondered as i own a Terv so have to be nosey and check :D

Lindsay
X

Halter types-the consequences.

Dogs show little or no sense of choking on a normal collar (as seen in dogs gagging as the pull) it seems to be something that they ignore.

Dogs wearing collars do not have a sense of their head being caged and as a consequence their senses being forced into position. they retain the sense of what humans would call head freedom, nevertheless an immense amount of damage is caused by dogs pulling on collars and leads, neck, back and trachea damage are rife in such dogs, this in turn can lead to pain and all follows that, incuding potential aggression.

Jerks and pulls etc from Halties probably vibrate on fewer parts of the skeleton and also Halties do not thud on the trachea either nevertheless the halter is the most barbaric peice of equipment ever to be created for imprisoning a dogs head.

The old original Haltie is still seen on sale in vets and pet stores, in its place are new alternatives which are becoming popular, but was the Haltie safe? and is the latest version any better?

The Halties contemporary equivalent, Canac, rides up under the eye the same as the older Halties did and rubes the fragile skin around that area, anyone doubting this just take notice next time you see them, not just one but take notice of several.

When they or halters are first put on most dogs try to get away from them.
Once the Haltie is eventually forced on, the head is forced into a position as the dog tries to escape, even at this early point such attempts by the dog are manifestations of sheer panic.

If the owner then continues to hold still whilst keeping the halter attached to a lead the dog twists and attempts to escape from the head trap. At this stage the dog is experiencing the owner not as its trusted friend but as someone who, out of the blue, has ‘turned on it’ for NO reason the dog is capable of understanding, that in itself can terrify a dog on top of the fact the relationship is not a strong bond to need one.

Once the owner has forced the Halter type on the dog starts jumping around in panic, a dog does not have the intelligence to stop and think “This is for my own good” all the dog knows is that its once trusted friend has turned on it, as no command has been broken it cannot associate it with unwanted behaviour of its own. Eventually the dog is forced into submission.

A dog challenging its owner for some reason would naturally submit at a point at which the dog felt its pack leader (owner) had overcome it, it would not resent that nor would it make the dog distant in the relationship but the act of putting a Haltie on a dog for the first time is not the act of a pack leader asserting rank over a rebellious dog, it is an out of the blue attack to the dogs perception of its, until then, secure position.

Occasional challenges to rank are normal in dogs and in the dogs restricted way of understanding its life and its world ‘no undue behaviour’ would have been carried out by its owner whom it had challenged and whom had corrected it.

A halter type placed on the dog, for no reason the dog can work out, does not fall under the category ‘pack rank behaviour’ and it most certainly does not fall under the category ‘trusted friend ‘ behaviour. Dogs accept corrections if they have knowingly deliberately misbehaved but a Halter type is a punishment without reason, to the dog’s mind.

Putting a total head restraint on for the first time, often just as the dog is excited and pleased when it realizes it’s going walkies with its trusted owner, causes an instant breakdown of trust (as we call it) the dog has no idea whatsoever why all this is happening and why such a punishment is coming from its friend and companion, there are no broken commands to associate the punishment with.

This sort of head entrapment causes claustrophobia in some humans and a state of anxiety in a dog, the reason the anxiety occurs is because the dog has no means of interpreting this particular human behaviour.

The head of a dog is, emotionally, the most important part of its experience of itself, its most important senses are in its head, dogs are highly dependant on smell and use it as a means of recognition and identification, most vets who care about their patients let them smell the piece of cotton wool, the scissors, the rubber glove etc thereby putting the dog at ease before tampering with them with the cotton wool, suddenly the freedom of movement and the availability of scenting is gone.

The dog normally looks to identify its environment as well as scent identification, with a Halter type restraint, that’s gone its muzzle is jerked back to suit the owners minuet by minuet needs, not the dogs, it is restricted to a view decided by the owner. The only form of defence a dog has is in its head, suddenly all the defence capability is forced away from the dog. This process may take several minuets for some owners and dogs on the first attempt, but a few seconds of this unexpected attack by its trusted friend can cause lifetimes damage.

The most traumatic part of all with these barbaric instruments is that the head is the part of the dog’s body where natural affection and retribution are centred.
In the litter the beginning of its natural training starts, if the pup carries out a behaviour detrimental to the group as a whole the bitch INSTANTLY bears down on its HEAD area with vocalisations and physical threats (teeth showing etc) the fear is beneficial to start behaviour correction and the head area is the receptor.

As soon as the pup responds (often by squeals) she licks it profusely, comforting it and giving the reassurance it needs. In other words she delivers a negative stimulus to produce positive behaviour, this is how dogs learn, as well as much of human behaviour, one or two repetitions of the negative stimulus, dependant on the individual pup, or punishment and the pup learns which behaviours are or are not beneficial to itself, all this reward punishment system is centred around the head.

The fear the dog experiences is a fear which is beneficial to the dog and to the well being and harmony of the pack, in the same way fear is beneficial to humans, which is why it exists, no species would survive without the fight or flight drive.

In the case of the introduction of a Haltie there is no way the dog can have natural understanding, in its own canine way, of what is happening. It is natural to pull away from something but in the case of the Haltie the entire head is trapped as well as its body, only panic threshing can occur.

Always when we initiate affection to the dog it’s centred around the head, when dogs living together greet each other the acceptance is often head and mouth contact between them, when a dog wants to submit it lowers its head, when a dog wants to show dominance it holds its head erect and much more. All this and MUCH more is suddenly forced away from the dog by the person who, until this traumatic event, it trusted more than anything in the world, all that, gone and the dog bows its head in submission.

I accept that the use of Halter type head constraints are often done without malice, without bad intention and most of the time purely through lack of knowledge (innocence) but they are nothing less than a training substitute, a trained dog does not pull on a lead, it willingly obeys the owner who it sees as its natural and loved pack leader, halters are sure sign of being to lazy to train a dog properly.

The physical dangers are more obvious, if anyone walks for only a few moments with their heads turned to the side, the neck will soon start aching, try it day in day out for a week and see how your neck feels then, add to that the occasional UNEXPECTED jerk from the muzzle area which again forces the entire head to jolt sideways, that in itself will make the dog tense its muscles, a few jerks and the dog will keep its muscles tense for longer and longer periods. In humans this same muscle tension in the neck causes headaches, what does it do to the dog? How much damage to the vertebrate happens over a prolonged period?

Above all Halter types have no training purpose whatsoever, they are a substitute for training and have no other effect than force the dog to walk at heel as a lazy option to training.

A case has been put forward to DEFRA against them it now remains to be seen if they get banned.

I once ran training courses and banned Halties as soon as I saw them; I had also never allowed chokers but given the two evils I would certainly prefer the choker for the dog.

Haltie type head cages have been used on humans centuries ago, always as a punishment or torture device, lets face it what would happen if a child were put in such a device to stop it toddling in front?

If anyone would like a second opinion, this time by a behaviourist, then try Suzanne Clothiers article at,
www.flyingdogpress.com
'It is only when we view the whole can we can see the flaws '

Denis Carthy © 2002

Hi Doogle,

Just as well my bitch didn't read all that! She would never have willingly accepted her Halti (she knew that wearing it meant either food or a being taken for a run) and she would have had a miserable time. Instead after about a week she would walk beautifully beside the pram and we could go everywhere without discomfort for anyone.

Plenty of dogs walk very happily on headcollars - but not all. A lot depends on how they are introduced. If you just shove a headcollar on a dog with no proper introduction, it shows ignorance and the dog may suffer. INtroduced with rewards, many dogs are perfectly happy. It's like wearing glasses, some people can, some turn to contact lenses because they loathe the feeling of them on their face.

Lindsay

ps you are supposed to be banned anyway.

Back again Denis?

:)

“many dogs are perfectly happy. It's like wearing glasses, some people can, “

“Just as well my bitch didn't read all that! She would never have willingly accepted her Halti”

“although she hates wearing them and will roll about trying to get them off. However, when you are forced to keep your dog on a lead it does make life easier “

chelsea_guy
Yes, as I said.