This is not a docking debate, so please don't turn it into one;)

I don't know why,but I always belived that?? If a dog was docked it could only be Kc'd if a vet had done it. However tonight I have learn't that I am wrong. Surely if the KC required proof that the docking was carried out legally, then all the illegal people doing it would stop. Or do you think this would just encourage more people not to register with the kennel club?? IE: a docked breed being shown is only allowed to be shown if proof the docking was carried out legally.

Alison
Please don't turn this into a docking debate. I want people views on what they think would happen if the kc tried to bring this procedure into force.

The KC do not ask for proof that a dog has been legally docked. However, I do believe that many countries in the EU do require such evidence in the event the dog goes abroad.

Jesse

No they don't even ask if the dog is docked as far as I know. It is not the job of the Kennel Club to police the law.

I know it's not the job of the kennel club to police the law, BUT the kennel club has got an influence in the doggie world. All I'm saying is, if the Kennel club used there position to influence people in doing it legally. What do you think the outcome would be??

1, more people doing it legally or?
2, less people registering with the kennel club

Alison
edited poor spelling :D

Cant think that many docking Vets would be willing to give written proof - it would make them targets for both the RCVS & RSPCA campaigns.

The legal/illegal docking question is not one I have heard brought up for ages - I think most responsible people accept that docking by a Vet is the only way acceptable now (and leaving aside the issues which could be discussed about this aspect at the moment). Those who act outside of the legislation are probably the ones who skate around regulations, or are ignorant of them, and are not that interested in KC registrations and its rules and sanctions anyway. After all if you are not deterred on acting illegally by a Law would you be more deterred by a regulation of a private members club?

bye
Gwen

Hi
When I got my boxer dogs of a registered breeder I was given a certificate signed by the vet to say he had been docked by a qualified vet.

janine i also got the same with my boxer

Poodlebabe,
just noticed your reply - I dont think any EU countries ask for proof that dogs were docked by a Vet (after all this is UK not EU legislation) however, several EU Kennel Clubs require written proof that a dog docked after a certain date (date varies according to their own anti docking legisaltion) is a bona fide "working or gundog" before they can be shown in that country (EG this years world show in Germany)
bye
Gwen

Is there a big problem with illegal docking? Must say that things are better now but when it first became the law that only vets could do it, there were some very strangely docked tails about but I think they have got used to it or the owners make sure they get it right.

I have a friend who breeds boxers occassionally when she wants a puppy to show & she always has a vet's cert for each puppy(always has had these)

She had a terrible experience when the RSPCA & police ! invaded her house when her teenage daughter(18)was alone in the house, they took the puppies away & she was accused of docking them herself

Mega red faces for police & the RSPCA when she turned up with certificates, the Vet & Solicitor(whio was a friend)

The puppies were 7 days old & they left the mother behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The vet went ballistic when he got the RSPCA as they were in the"puppy"area with litters of other puppies that were ill. Luckily it was all within a couple of hours & the puppies were ok. Out of court settlement which went to a charity from both police & RSPCA

Local police now do not accompany RSPCA when they call on docked breed breeders for some reason

The KC don't ask for any extra info when registering a docked breed, I have never had to say if my puppies were docked or not for them to be registered, as a docked breed I think they just assume that everyone in our breed docks, so on paper mine are no different than any other breeder in the UK but in reality they have tails.

I've heard of several people who have exported who have had to provide proof. Maybe it's down to individual regions and authorities as well!

Jesse

Thanks for the replies :)

Hi Jesse, thats interesting, never had it requested for any of ours. Of course there are several you cannot import docked pups too, or at least they cant be registered with the KCs there (mostly Scandinavia), and found an interesting situation in Switzerland where the new owner could not register the pup in their own name as he was docked, but he could stay in our names and be shown! Do you know which countries they are? I try to keep notes on import/export requirements so we can help interested buyers and point them in the right direction.

bye
Gwen

I can't really remember Gwen but I think it was Germany and Holland but don't quote me on that just remember that they had to get a certificate!

Jesse

Hi there Iv just manage to get my last litter docked and think this will be the last year to do so has it was hard to get a vet to do them this time and most vets have it in there heads its already been banned.
Its been banned for a lay person to dock but not for a vet.
Has for the KC keeping a chack they dont bother with all the puppy farms that reg all there litters so why would they about tail docking?Its all money for then the long and short of it. ( Excuse the pun!!!)
Finding one and more of the pups in the puppy out-lets have tails on them now anyhow and almost all have the Pet dog club reg not KC has the farmers and dealers cant docked themselfs and getting a vet to dock would put cost on there pups a thing which they dont like doing.
My last litter two years ago only one vet asked the new puppy owner where was the tail docked.

Will you stop breeding if you can't dock or carry on and leave your pups with tail. Only ask as there are reports of a big drop in numbers of docked breeds being registered in countries where this is the law, don't know if it is true but can see that the appeal of the breed may go and the breeder may change to another normally tailed breed.

I heard the same Jackie, that numbers dropped but have also recently read somewhere (should mark these pages when I surf!) that numbers picked up again after a few years so either breeders came back or new people took up the challenge.
I wouldn't stop breeding, much as I love the look of my poodles, their tail is just a bit of them and it is their personality and character that wins me over everytime lol!

Jesse

When I've heard people saying they'll stop breeding when/if docking is banned, I feel they can't like their breed very much, if the only thing that makes it worth breeding is being able to shorten its tail! Surely there's more to a dog than that?

Well I only have a litter every two years And Yes dont think I will have another litter it has so many say on here we have had years of breeding these dogs without tails so tail carrange was not a issue but Now when the ban comes in forch we will be getting all sorts of shapes coming up from stright to curled over the back.
I had a litter of Schepperkes whick I left the tail on had two curled over the back like spitz and the other two where stright or hanging like a GSD.

JG
I agree wholeheartedly. I've had two Dobes, both with docked tails. before i got Lola, I tried very hard to get a Dobe with a tail and every breeder i spoke to refused to leave a pup with its tail. Whilst I understand their reasoning, I will be glad when this matter is settled once and for all. I wouldn't dream of changing my preference for Dobes just because they had a tail!!
annie :D

Hi jeangenie correct me if im wrong but you breed dalmations not working gundogs let me ask you if you would be happy to see pups you had bred under going exstensive medical procedures and painfull treatments to repair damage to their tails caused by doing the job they were bred to do! when we look back to what our dogs were bred for ther is justification to dock or not to breed if you cannot dock.
personally i would not breed any puppy to go into a life of suffering would you???
i understand that many gundog breeds do indeed never see a shooting field but for those that do a docked tail is not cosmetic it is essential.
Il get down off my box now!
cheers

Hi kao kate,
Actually, dalmatians are one of the breeds who frequently suffer tail injuries just from wagging their tails (they are very happy dogs!) with splits at the tip which spray blood all over the place, and make the house resemble an abattoir.

However, a solution of alum with a little antiseptic seals and cleans the wound, and they heal well. Vets have never heard of this, and will be very sceptical until you can prove how effective it is.

So yes, I have seen terrible tail injuries (splits about 2 inches long) and a dog whose sides are scarlet with blood, but apparently not in any pain (and believe me, they let you know when something hurts!), and healed within a week.

It's a very well-known breed problem, but there is no way we would consider docking them. Sorry.

No, certainly wont stop breeding Ameican Cockers when Docking ceases. Only difference it will make is in the ring, when the overall look of the dogs can change dramatically with a tail. Also, in our breed, the undocked dogs I have seen (and I used to own one) have such wildly different tail carriages it is going to look hilarious in the ring for quite some time!
bye
Gwen

Think some breeds may be more affected than others guess the poodles and cockers will be fine with tail it is some of the larger smooth coated breeds that do look very strange with tail, mainly I think because they seem to carry them in different ways, and the tails in some breeds do not seem to fit the dog. The tail on a Whippet or Greyhound look good on a Whippet or Greyhound, but they don't look good waving over the back of a Rotti.

The other thing I have been worrying about do you think there may be a increase in anal problem such as those that occur in the GSD in others with low set tails of ulcers or tumours when the area is kept dark, warm and moist by the weight of the long tail.

Not saying this is a reason to dock the tail, as I don't think the chance of a medical problem is a good reason to spay or castrate, but the docking is not nearly such a shock to the dogs system as neutering. So I am wondering if in say 20 years time all the vets and others will be encouraging people to dock to avoid the chance of their dog getting Anal Furunculosis. And will not just be seeing the breeds we are now used to seeing docked but also GSD's and Newfie's who’s heavy well coated tails may be seen as causing a problem to their health and should therefor be removed, like tonsils.

I suppose only time will tell as to what is going to happen lol!

Jesse

Looking at some of the Spanish Water Dogs on the internet I am dreading seeing tailed dogs in the show ring. Someone in this country has already decided to keep her dogs tails on in the last litter so I suppose we'll see them sooner than expected.

some of the foreign dogs have tails held low, tails held high, some over their backs like a Pomeranian and others with tails curled over their backs about 10 times. I know what I'd like their tails to look like if they had one but should a tail stop a dog that in every other way is perfect from being shown. How can we say what's right or not. I'd hate for us to say the tail should be held in such a way and there for us to have dogs that are awful in every other way.

Also what's going to happen to our natural bobtails. I have kept a male bobtail from my last litter as I wd. rather see them being shown like this than with full tails.

The argument about docking has been around for so many years now. During that time the discussions about varying tail carriage been one of the big discussion points. Surely it's time the breed clubs and the KC got their house in order? How many of you know what the tail carriage should be for your breed? How many breed standards for traditional docked breeds actually state a tail carriage for undocked specimens? Allowing for the number of years that they have been acceptable in the ring don't you think it is a disgrace that few if any breed standards list what the carriage should be?

The other comment I must make on the subject is that I doubt if many of you who want docking banned have ever seen the damage done to undocked working gundogs of traditional docked breeds. Believe me, it’s not nice! If a law comes in as some of you want then dogs such as Springer’s are almost guaranteed to be consigned to painful amputations by 2 or 3 years old. Even I had trouble last season with a Labrador, a breed less prone to problems!

John

<<Surely it's time the breed clubs and the KC got their house in order? How many of you know what the tail carriage should be for your breed? How many breed standards for traditional docked breeds actually state a tail carriage for undocked specimens? >>

Um, I think if you check the standards this was done a while ago for all customarily docked breeds

wxcuse me for sounding a bit thick, but how do they do docking is the puppy put under first. Just curious as to know how they dock pups tails

I beg your forgiveness. I've just checked the latest breed standard for Springers:-

Tail
Customarily docked.
Docked: Set low, never carried above level of back. Well feathered with lively action.
Undocked: Set low, never carried above level of back. Well feathered with lively action. In balance with the rest of the dog.

So the KC have now got their house in order in that respect! but it does not alter the problem of undocked dogs damaging their tails whilst working.

John

Hi John, as you have discovered, the Breed Councils had to put in an undocked description for all docked breeds. This was very much pushed by the KC - many breed clubs did not want to do so, and were simply told that if they did not writ thier own description, then the KC would disregard their wishes to remain as "customarily docked" and would put in thier own wording. It is not a cas of getting houses in order to decide on tail carriage - we have all had to put it in, but few if any have any idea what sort of tails our own stock is going to produce as they have very rarely been left with tails. In American Cockers we know how we would like them carried - have no idea if we will be producing pups with that carriage! Some of our best, top producing dogs and bitches may produce pups whose tails plume over the back or trail like a Cavalier - only time will tell. This then leads to the harsh decisions for breeding on. Obviously you dont want to concentrate just on the tail carriage, you need the whole picture, but for the first few litters we will be working very much in the dark.

And most of us are sypathetic towards the problems which will be incurred by working dogs, unfortunatley the minister concerned seems unable to grasp the concept. Perhaps some representation to the CLA might help, they have certainly managed to raise an incredible amount of interest in the pro-hunting debate.
bye
Gwen

Working people are very aware of the impending problems but really there are so few of us. On an average shoot there will be something like 8/10 guns of which maybe 2 or 3 will have Labradors. 2 to 3 Pickers up, again 1 to 2 will have Labradors and maybe 1 will have a Springer. The beating line of about 8 people will in all possibility have the bulk of the Springer’s but even there you will only find a maximum of about 3 or 4. If you look at it like that, although there are plenty of working Springer’s around there are very few in one place. It's the old story of divide and conquer! It is really down to the working societies to get involve.

The story I heard mentioned was that dogs destine for work could be docked but realistically this is nonsense! How do you decide which puppy from a litter is going to be the best worker at 2 days old? At that age you don't even know if the dog is ever going to be able to stand let alone work!

Some 15 years ago I stood in the library at the Vet College listening to a veterinary student telling me, "I call it mutilation!" and I was thinking, "I call it brain washing by the lecturers!"

Regards, John

"The story I heard mentioned was that dogs destine for work could be docked but realistically this is nonsense! How do you decide which puppy from a litter is going to be the best worker at 2 days old? At that age you don't even know if the dog is ever going to be able to stand let alone work!"

A working springer in a pet home will still have the instinct in them to hunt. If that dog is being walked in areas of thick cover, they will enter that cover and hunt.

Helen