i dont want to stir up a huge debate about the diffrent types of gsd within this county and which is correct. i have seen a type of gsd that i like the look of and think they are based on working german lines? does anyone know what type/lines they are and if there is a kennel in the uk breeding this type?, i have seen them
here
here
many thanks,
kelly

You will need a GSD expert to me the dogs looked different. One appeared to be leaning into the collar the other looked very splay footed behind. To judge I would wish to see them both free standing. Think the splay footed one is the other is posed. But they look different types to me. One has a large forchest with the front legs set far back, the other looks more correct. Really should have printed the photos out as I keep forgetting what I saw.

Will be as interested in this answer as you will Kelly.

Hi Kelly are you on about the colour which is sable and not all breeders have sable's as for any thing else they look just what they are GSD. which country did these dogs come from in photos? i did not look hard at the pictures but is it the same dog ?

hi,
they are from a kennel in the USA
http://www.k9kamp.com/index.php

they are not the same dog, one is a dog and the other a bitch. i am not referring to the colour, but the type. i have not seen this type in the show ring. i have either seen very heavy set type, with very sloping toplines and hindquaters that are practically on the floor or ones with very roached backs. neither of these appeal to me as they seem very extreme, unbalanced and unsound and do not look like they could do the job they were bred to do.
the dogs i put pics up are the type i prefer, they do not seem extreme or over done or over angulated to me anyway!
kelly

But Kelly they look so different, which is the one you like, the one in a show pose with its legs pulled right back and a very prominant chest, on the less exaggerated one with the rather splayed hind quarters. The top line depends on how the dog is stood, one of these dogs is in a show pose the other is not, well if it is, it is not placed well and I think it is free stood.

Please can an expert help here, to me they look rather poor but I would be happy to have the finer points explained to me please.

Hello

If you like the working german type i can suggest a breeder to you but i think he does have waiting lists, his name is steve dean and his affix is tydain, im afraid i cant do links but he does have a wbsite

Hope this helps

Diane

http://www.tydain.co.uk

They are both nice looking dogs, more for working i would say rather than for the show ring, i have seen this type of dog doing shutzhund and the forces seem to go for this type infact we had one that looked the same as the first dog in the picture.
You never know what is going to do well in the show ring, i show a metropolitan police bred dog in the ring and most of the time he may be placed last because he is of working type, he is very tall, quite long and leggy, and weighs about 90+ pounds but it is what i like, but it does surprise me every now and then when he does get placed 2nd, and this weekend he got a 3rd so you never know, that type of dog is out there but they do tend to have a high working drive, we have a young german dog at the moment and she is so on the ball, you have to be so quick with your commands otherwise she just looks at you as if to say to slow and shes off!

Good luck with your search

Diane

Hi Kelly

I tried to email you but it was returned, i will try again tomorrow

Diane

hi diane,
have you tried e mailing me again yet? has it been returned as i have not received anything?
kelly

Hi Kelly

If you try this link & scroll down you will see Ringo who was a working dog & a successful show dog in Germany

His owner works & judges Schutzhund in Germany & the UK being one of the very few female judges

I can personally vouch for his character he was a really friendly loving dog but an excellent worker

All the dogs on the site work.

here

Work as what please, Police dogs, Sheep dogs, Patrol dogs. Would be interested to know.

Search dogs & schutzhund

Petra would need sheep to work them in HGH & is a civilian so cannot do "patrol"work or "police" work

I think some of Ringo's puppies went to "professional"homes

If you look at the site his "working"qualifications are listed as are the older dogs

Can you explain Schutzhund, thought that was man work, but I am a bit lacking in detailed information. Thanks.

Schutzhund is not just manwork it includes tracking obedience agility search & yes manwork but the dog is taught "sleeve"work ie to attack the padded arm not the person & is rewarded by being given the sleeve to carry in training. The tracking is quite hard & obedience incudes stays heelwork etc

Many "breed" & "pet" people equate Schutzhund with manwork UK policework style which it is not

Try this linkhere

We have a dog at our place by xatoh vom haus sevens, and she is a live wire would make an excellant working dog but she has been bought as a brood bitch, i do bits and pieces with her but she is so quick you really have to be ahead of her.

Hi there Kelly,

I have been breeding these animals for the last 30 odd years, I have looked at the photo's you put up and I acan say they are poor specimens , but yes they are the German Working type lines. The first dog is nearer to the standard as it has a better front end, with a correct lay of shoulder, and the 90 degrees between the upper arm and the shoulder. They are both Dark or Brown Sables as per standard, both lack rear angulation needed to propell the dog forward with that effortless gait it should have. I love the colour of these brown sables and the best one I have seen was Mikadene Highlander. He could gait all day long and because he had a good lay back of shoulder his front legs could stretch forward further than the rest there for giving him that gait. I would like to see more turn of stifle on both these dogs which is sadly lacking and only pets. I have sent Dogs over to the USA and they breed my lines to theirs because they have many health problems and mine don't. Very soon there will be enough of a gene pool of my lines to start a fresh strain in the USA. Sir Mike Charlton
Mikadene Alsatians

Admin edited

I think you will not remember me I judged your early dogs in the mid 80's

"Alsatians" ??? Since when have German Shepherds reverted to this incorrect name ?

No comments on the site I put up I note

To answere The Alsatian Question is quite simple. The official name for this breed is German Shepherd Dog ( Alsatian) . The Alsatian is still the name of the dog and can be used with or without The German Shepherd Dog part. The Kennel Club which I take notice of and not the SV or WUSV have confirmed it perfectly ok that if people want to call thier dogs German Shepherd Dog on it's own then it's perfectly ok to call them Alsatians Likewise where did the GSD come from and lots use that also. Quite a few of the English type show folks use the Alsatian to differentiate between the two types of animal. The English and German Working type and the German Show type.
How does one put photo's on a reply please anyone know. I don't seem to find any reference to that part.

Oh Yes could you please reveil yourself
Sir Mike Charlton
Mikadene Alsatians

Admin edited

Hi Kelly,
Are you talking about the straight back? These are not the best examples I've seen, but I have two of what I call the "old-fashioned type". They have the virtually straight back instead of these horrible roach (banana) backs that are seen all too often in the show ring these days. I show my brown sable and do reasonably well at Open level, but it depend what the judge prefers on the day. I also do obedience and agility with her aswell. If you look back at G.S.D books from the sixties, a lot of the shepherds looked similar to this. The breeder I got her from is, unfortunately up in the North East of Scotland.
If you require name etc. Give me an e-mail :sarah@torranvell.freeserve.co.uk

Well Mali my dogs of the 60's were workers in obedience & WT as well as show dogs & they were from Mrs Barrington's German dogs were not so very difference from good German Shepherds of today

Moonmaiden,
No offence!! I just prefer the straighter backed Shepherds. I've a book published in 1978 written by May E Tidbold. 99% of the dogs from the late '60s and early '70s in this book are the straight backs. e.g.Shootersway Eros (1969), and Int. Ch. Rossfort Premonition (1969). Beautiful looking Shepherds.
It's a matter of personal taste.

Sarah.

I loved the dogs on the site you put up Moonmaiden- very much my type;)- then I realised most of the dogs in their pedigrees are in my bitch's:)

Stacey x x x

Hi Stacey,

I'm sorry I can't aggree with the dogs Moon maiden put up. All the dogs on the site are not to breed standard. Even the German breed standard directs you to breed a dog with a level topline, and the English Standard which is the one you should be working to actually states : Roached backs and dippy backs are undesirable and should be illiminated. It is a serious fault warrenting illimination. There are various degrees of faults some being disqualifying and others that are taken into consideration. White's and Blue's are a disqualifying fault and so is the roach and the dippy backs as well. Every Standard in the world makes reference to the roached back and every one say's it is a fault. The better dog's in Germany don't have the roach they are like our middle of the road type or English type. But do you expect any German to sell their crown jewels , never they are laughing all the way to the bank. Very nice heads though
Sir Mike

Sorry, Sir Mike, but I don't think there are any disqualifying faults in the UK breed standards. Check on the KC site and see.

Hi Jeangenie,

Many thanks for your reply, You are perfectly right in what you have said the exact word disqualify is not mentioned, it uses other words that mean the same thing the 1974 standard states Weak, soft and roached backs undesireable nd should be rejected. Now rejected in any mans tongue means disqualifying does it not. Modern day standard replaces the rejected by the word illiminated . The word means the same it should be asked to leave the ring, it is a fault that has been named specifically and I am sure all breeder would want to breed to the standard. It also say's Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum. Now it dosen't say those without have a fault, but it say's they should have and any deviation is not allowed ( except for certain circumstances) I won't go into that one, but I have given a doge best of breed with only one testicle.
Many thanks
Sir Mike

Sorry to disagree again, Sir Mike, but I believe the only time a judge can ask a dog to leave the ring is for temperamental faults (ie the judge just got bitten!). Being the wrong colour or wrong shape is not a disqualifying (or eliminating) fault, and the judge cannot order it out of the ring. The dog is simply placed last. All faults have to be judged as regards their seriousness.

This is according to the most recent standards (September 2000) which is of course the one judges must adhere to.

Hi Jeangenie,

A Judge can ask a dog to leave the ring if he feels he is justified in doing so ie Breaking Kennel Club Rules. I have asked a dog to leve the ring because of double handling and I asked politly 3 times for it to cease in this particular dog and they just said they do it in Germany and other shows I go to. So I asked it to leave. I then had to complete a statement to the kennel club and also had to get my steward to make a statement and the dog and owner was reported to the kennel club. I do know of instances when a judge has asked a dog to leave the ring as it was in his words of insuffience quality to be shown. He also had to make a statement to the Kennel Club and because the dog was roached backed he used the standard and the words illiminated. The Kennel Club backed him up. I personally would have put it to the back of the class, mind you nothing that man does surprises me. He was right because illiminated means just that illiminate , go , or any word one likes to use. As of colour it is of secondonary importance and must be regarded as such. but Whites blues and near whites are Highly undesireable. Can any one tell me how to put a picture of my latest stud dog on and let you see what I breed today.

Moonmaiden could you please let me know what site your dogs are on i would love to have a look, as for "sirs" dogs have had a look nice heads and bodies but where on earth are their legs, i really do not like extreme english or germanic types i just like good old middle of the road gsd's god bless them

what are lines? is this just to do with showing your dog??

Lines is really shorthand for bloodlines.
So for ancestry behind your dog, you also get some
kennels that produce good workers/agility/obedience dogs so some
may say 'the dog comes from a good working line or strain'.
Some say 'that line is reknowned for xxxxx' so again it's the breeding
behind, so each generation is producing a desired trait/appearance
and it will hopefully appear in each subsequent generation.

I grew up with the English 'type' of GSD's. My family's GSD's
were Tomcrofts (Kitty Watts was the breeder). I prefer the level
top-line to the 'banana-back' or roached back. I know of a working
GSD with pure German lines that came in, no roach back and fantastic
pigment, lovely head etc - he was a security dog, but they also used
to show him occasionally. (This was 8/9 years ago approx)

Hi Ace,

The dogs you refer to on my site are correct to standard, not everyone has read the standard, but it is correct. Highlander sired 76 litters and is the only dog in the GSD Club of the UK to have won Best Puppy in show and 2 Best in show awards. No other dog has done this. One other small problem Ace My title is Sir it is not a joke or a knick name it is my title just like yours is Mr So please I would like to be refered to as Sir Mike or my full name. What you wrote did offend and made fun of my title.
Yours
Sir Mike

Whether you are a Knight of the Realm or not , on a public Forum most people would simply sign their name rather than their title and name don't you think? I would assume that is why Ace has thought you were jesting ;) After all ..no one signs themselves here as Mr or Mrs , just their Christian name

Melody

aka Mrs Shanahan-Kluth ;)

I beg to differ re your dogs to the breed standard It's an opinion re top lines etc but the dimensions of the GSD UK breed standard of height to length is not

EG
"Body
Length measured from point of breast bone to rear edge of pelvis, exceeding height at withers. Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half. Undersized dogs, stunted growth, high-legged dogs, those too heavy or too light in build, over-loaded fronts, too short overall appearance, any feature detracting from reach or endurance of gait, undesirable. Chest deep (45-48 per cent) of height at shoulder, not too broad, brisket long, well developed."

I don't have any of my GSD's on the net but if you use this link & check out the GSD full body print on the dog print page that's one of my German imports & you will see No roach back no fine bone & a real male head. He also a had perfect hip score !& was an improver for HD. For "Sir" I note no Hip scores or haemophyllia status on your site, thats quite unusual for GSD's of either"type"

Discussing GSD's type is always controversal Sadly I can only manage my one pet rescue GSD(still german bloodlines tho')at present, but aim to bring in an all black one some day(well I can dream)

Reveal my self Hmmm thought you recognize my style after all you have been in GSD's since 1970's [$ me since August 1958 ])

Dear Moonmaiden,

May I please follow on from where you left off in the standard, you didn't finish the chapter re Body , was this intentional or an oversight.

I quote :- Overall length achieved by correc angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. Whithers long, of good height and well defined, joined back in smooth line without disruptingflowing topline, slighly sloping from front to back. Weak,soft and Roached backs Undesireable and should be illiminated.. Loin broad, strong,well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short or steep or flat cr4oups undesireable. End of Quote.

Forgive me if I take the Standard as gospel. It is not for interpretation, if it say's Roached backs should be illiminated then that's what they should be. One cannot go against the standard. It is the same as the heavy English type with dippy backs they should also be illiminated as per standard. I allways judge and breed to the standard to the letter and not make anything up as I go along. Fact is Fact.

I really can't see any mention of the word "illiminated" (or even "eliminated" if I'm being picky, but that's my job) in the GSD Breed Standard.
:)
Edit: Not knowing anything about GSDs, but I personally like the topline of the dog illustrating the standard.

hi Jeangenie,

I think I covered this point in a previous post but in the German Shepherd dog weekly year book 1979, the word rejected was used, Later in the GSD club of the UK it say's eliminated, it now seems according to the official Kennel Club site and Standard they have gone back to the word rejected. Does that mean it should not be shown be in the ring ?. Is it open to interpretation I think not. What does the word rejected mean, according to my dictionary it say's
Quote:-

re·ject (r[$#301]-j[$#277]kt')
tr.v., -ject·ed, -ject·ing, -jects.

To refuse to accept, submit to, believe, or make use of.
To refuse to consider or grant; deny.
To refuse to recognize or give affection to (a person).
To discard as defective or useless; throw away. See synonyms at refuse1.
To spit out or vomit.
Medicine. To resist immunologically the introduction of (a transplanted organ or tissue); fail to accept as part of one's own body.
n. (rç'j[$#277]kt)
One that has been rejected: a reject from the varsity team; a tire that is a reject.

[Middle English rejecten, from Latin rçicere, rçiect- : re-, re- + iacere, to throw.]

End of quote:- So the post speaks for it's self, the Kennel Club say's Reject and that means refuse to consider or accept. There is no interpretation no question of the fact. You either work to the standard or refuse and say you refuse to work to the standard.
To be considered a good breeder one must work to the standard if not then one's ethics as a breeder is questionable.

Hi Sir Mike,
I thought you might be interested in this excerpt from an article about showing and judging, written by a very famous breeder, exhibitor and judge:

"I well know that some dogs appear in the ring that a judge can, at a glance, tell that they have no earthly chance of getting anywhere in the awards. Nevertheless these dogs should be gone over as carefully as the best-looking ones in the class. The exhibitor has paid his entry fee and has come to the class to get the judge's opinion. He or she may be a complete novice to whom the show is a matter of great importance. It is therefore only common courtesy, and not a waste of time, to go over the entry carefully. If the dog is just glanced at casually it may put the exhibitor off shows forever and, moreover, give him the idea that only the best-known exhibitors stand any chance of getting an award. This might do infinite harm."

It seems to me that, to dismiss from the ring a dog who has obvious faults, but which is eligible to be shown (bearing in mind that the KC Standards have no disqualifying faults), is the height of bad manners.

Please re read previous posts. I have explained all . The man in question judged Crufts. I am not in any circumstances freindly with him at all, I just mentioned why he did it and that is fact. I said I would have put them to the back which I always do . He won't enter his dogs under me because he knows I would put them to the back as well. I will not tollerate double handling in any circumstances, those that do double handle only confirms to me the dog is more intellegent than the owner. Yes I have been bitten several times all from Germanic dogs and one Middle of the road or Alsatian, but the worse experience was when I was walking away from a St Bernard and he came up behind me and put his head between my legs and lifted quite swifly. That had the effect of flooring me in a heap groaning in agony, whilst most people wear either laughing or grinning quite loudly. Such an undignified experience. Toys seem to be the worse dogs for me re biting.

Well I wasn't going to answer this thread again but

"Toys seem to be the worse dogs for me re biting" & "Yes I have been bitten several times all from Germanic dogs"

I trust ALL these dogs were reported to the KC for immediate banning, but I'm surprised people with "Germanic"dogs entered under you

Toys biting in the ring All of them ? wow you must have some poor dogs entered under you didn't know you judged toys must enter my boys next time you judge

As for Vera @ Crufts I take it you managed to hear all these hips clicking over all the double handling & Crufts noise in general. Did the BOB have bad hips too(if so I will call her owners as her Hip score would indicate not) ? Did the BOB try to take a piece out of the Group Ring steward & Group judge as happened a few years ago ?

Bad temperament is worse than any structure fault My father's first GSD was line bred to Avon Prince & you could not trust her an inch-which is why all my dogs have been from parents with excellent temperaments & nearly all from direct German or 1st generation breeding.

I think the worse GSD incident I ever saw was at a local show when an exhibitor's young dog turned on him & his older one joined attacking the owner. The owner was very badly bitten, his dogs were always"iffy"in the ring & very people wary. No they were not German bred pure UK "Alsatian"type. He returned one to the breeder(who bred off him), personally I would have had them both pts immediately

Jeangenie

Sadly I had to "excuse" several"Alsatian type GSD's" from the ring whilst judging due to poor temperament eg backing off as I approached then turning their lips back when the handler forced them to stand, I even had one that was growling ALL the time I was near it, then as I turned away flew at me trying to bite me. Fear biters are the very worst of any breed of dog & to show such a dog in the breed ring-words fail me. I never placed a non entire dog & colour is only of importance if it is incorrect-blues etc.

I have often wondered why there are still dogs being shown strung up with the cheesewire "choker"up under the ears & the handlers fingers behind the ears-this doesn't just apply to GSD's. It seems to be the norm in so many breeds. Not my current breed thank goodness which has to be shown on a loose lead & free standing-a lot harder that a stacked breed which can be held in place :)

"Sir" Why no comment on my roached back spindly import<tongue firmly in cheek>? & no reply re hip scores etc ? All very well to have no Epilepsy, Bloat, Torsion, or Megasophagus in your lines but HD etc are also very important. I was not aware the bloat & torsion were totally inherited you learn something new every day ! Never had them in my breeding lines either

I agree entirely about the "stringing up", Moonmaiden. Luckily it is frowned on in my breed, too, and almost all are shown on a loose lead, and all are shown free-standing.

Dear Moon Maiden,

I think my highest score to date was 11 and that was Ch Mikaene Lionheart at Schuvelle, from my last litter I have 2 bitches and 1 dog in the states and all three have been ofa'd hips and elbows excellent. Lionhearts sister was scored 5 (3:2) Mikadene Jester was 9. Just like one loves to hide behind nicknames I don't put them on my sight. Hip scoreing is testing how well you have brought up the puppy. H/D will be so evedent at 6 months old it will be debilitating. At a later age it is testing wear and tear on the hips. It is when the bones are still green and soft and people insist on giving them miles and miles of roadwork. All you are doing is wearing out the hips. It happens to all of the big breeds. No points scored here. As Malcolm once told me for God's sake is that all you lot are looking at , a pair of hips running round the ring. If I may drop a name here Chris Wildman ask Malcolm Willis if he knew anything bad about Mikadene Highlander, as she wanted to use him. ( Ch Carliston Zues owner) He said He has sired loads of pups and none have been bad that have come to me so go ahead, I only get to know about the bad stud dogs, this one is a good one. I was flatered. So Yes we do score but don't shout about it. I must say I don't score every dog because I have never had H/D in my kennels. Just to go off track slightly I went to watch the dogs at Crufts under Vera Hutchinson, One could see and hear the hips clicking in every class and in excess of a quarter of the dogs in each class.
I was persueded to take in a very nice sable dog, He was a very deep red colour. Vera asked me what colour this dog was, I said " It's a Brown sable" her reply how strange funny colour. I replied it is in the breed standard and she replied it is not a reconised colour. Go to the rear of the ring. The owner of the dog complained to the Kennel Club stand and bought a breed standard and when she had finished pointed out her mistake to which she replied they must have changed it since my day. I think we can all tell horror stories, but it all boils down to one thing if you refuse to read what is written and only believe what is told how can one argue with a person that refuses to read proof just because they don't believe it. To anyone thinking of buying a shepherd, go to the kennel club sight read the standard and go to a breeder that can read and understand what is written or better still don't bother. The sooner the breed is split the better. I am now getting out of shepherds and letting my son and daughter carry on, and going back to the breed I had before Alsatians Whippets.
End of story

Hi Melody.

I thank you for your reply into the ethics of modern day communications. I do appoligise if I offended you or you felt that I was trying to Brag in any way. Like it or not it is my title and I have the right to use it when ever I feel fit. Just like you have the right to use any name or title you wish ie the nicknames you use . I did start using it when I signed on from the beginning and it is common manners to reply in kind. My friends reply was meant to make little and to insult in my opinion. At the very least please use manners when replying, I am very proud of my title and I will not allow anyone to make fun of me. To answere his statement regarding the legth of leg, again if one reads the standard the Breast should be deep and now 50% of the overall height of the dog at the withers. So Legs longer than the depth of Chest are not correct , whether anyone likes it or not that is the fact . Please remember the Stanard was drawn up so we all should breed to it , not make up our own.
Unsigned

I didn't reply concerning ethics , I wrote concerning common useage :) I have no problem with you having a title and I am not offended in any way. I believe I was supplying information , possibly useful to you , to explain why Ace had replied in the manner that she/he did :)

You may or may not use your title as you see fit , you cannot , however , make anyone else use it . You can ask that they do , but you cannot make them , especially on a public Forum such as this

Anyone may or may not make fun of anyone else I'm afraid , it is down to , as you say , the manners of the individual . Respect is generally earned , especially in this day and age , as I am sure you are aware :)

I hope this clarifies the situation , I will refrain from further comment

I have no comment to make on the GSD discussion , they are not my breed :)

Melody

oooooooops i,ll consider my wrist slapped. However the sir business was an easy mistake to make as we do have Lady Dazzle here on the boards and i think that is just her forum name don't think she is a real lady , sorry no disrespect intended Lady Dazzle. And as for me Sir Mike you can call me Madam.And no disrespect to you and your breeding but i still prefer my shepherds with a bit more leg and having brains as well as beauty and be safe in the knowledge that my type of shepherd is from hipscored parents.You may well score all your dogs but there are a heck of a lot on the English side that don't,i don't personally like the extreme Germanic but they are a lot more stringent about hips etc.

Hi in reply to the post that a lot of the English side does not hipscore the english dogs well I do, needless to say that will happen on both sides of the camp, and choking up dogs well sorry but again i dont do this either, nor do I have someone on the outside of the ring run around with dog bowls, toys etc, I am a a bit different to Sir Mike in that I have german lines in my bitches, also old english if thats what its called I believe that the two need each other at times,, my bitches have a good level topline, they also have legs, they are not bad tempered, and definetly are not fear biters, I have seen Sir Mike judge and he put what I would call a very balanced middle of the road shepherd up, not extreme either way, and if it was me in that ring I would have probably put the same bitch up, this post is not meant to offend anyone but the way that I am reading into it the english or middle type shepherd breeders are being called for something they are not, in not hipscoring their stock. There are a lot that do in fact This is my opinion and I entitled to it the same a everyone on here, two sides of the camp have been at it long enough, and one will not change the others mind each believing that their type is correct, the correct one being the standard, only different people interpret the standard differently, and this is where the roach backs and the extreme english come in to it, lets be honest neither of these dogs could do a days work, and lets not forget the shepherd is supposed to be a working breed

Janines Gsds

Well I've been following this thread, as my hubby decided he would like a gsd ( like he has a say anyway:D) and trying to understand the difference and I still haven't a clue. So far the only thing hubby knows is he wants a long haired lol. I'm going to get him to read this thred and then tell me he still wants one.

Alison
P.s he's not allowed one for at least 3 yrs, so he's got lots of reading up to do:)

Congratulations on hip scoring, do you also blood test & epilepsy test ?

Unfortunately most "Alsatianists"don't score & if they have any Quadrille in their lines keep it very quiet. It's really sad that they don't as it's only for the good of the breed. I remember a very well known"Alsatianist"who is still breeding & NOT scoring selling someone a dog for working trials , which had severe HD & was taken to court & he lost. He claimed he had never had any problems so didn't need to score !

I did show at a local show against him & none of his dogs could keep up with my bitch(who is a pet & only entered to bulk up the classes) so I was asked to let him gait his dog on it's own:) Yes it backed off the judge, had to be strung up with a fine choker, had the worst hind & front movement I've ever seen & yes got BOB :):):) Even people who like "Alsatians"in other breeds came to me & asked me what had happened & why. I couldn't stop laughing when the judge came out of the ring to speak to me after judging & told me I had a lovely bitch but she had lost because of her "movement"being too energetic & to ask the BOB handler to help me show her as I was obviously a beginner :D I couldn't resist telling the judge hat I remembered her showing her first Bernese MD that wouldn't walk at it's first show:D

"Sir"-very quiet re my import wasn't he roach backed enough for comment ?-he was a very good sire of police dogs:D


Sadly we will never agree re breed type & I for one will not respond to this thread any more

Hi I came on here to give my opinion AND NO I dont have any male dogs so dont need to get anything haemophiilia tested and you are going on about QUADRILE lines can u tell me exactly where Mortoff Marcus comes from, I agree with you that some of the old heavy english cant do a days work, but there again neither can some of the german, I am not knocking german lines I have plenty of them in my stuff, so it would be stupid of me to do so, also there are a lot of german dogs that I would use on my bitches, but on the positive side there are a lot of middle of the road shepherds that are really nice nad probably more to the standard than any of the other 2 categories, ie roached and heavy english, that are doing well in both working and showing so sometimes they are not to be knocked, I agree with you about the man whos not scoring his dogs and then selling the pups on and knowing that there will be probably unsound pups thatswrong and no one would disagree with you on that, but sadly we cant do anything about that he,s afool and thats top and bottom of it but he will get his cum uppence eventually

Janines

hi,
yes, i am looking for a gsd with a straight topline as the standard calls for and not one of these with the awful roached, weak backs and excessive rear end angulation. i have seen several more kennels on the web now and the dogs i like are from german working lines, some with old ddr lines and eastern european. i am looking for a breeder of this type here in the uk, but am struggling. have found one or two and have made enquires. i have visted your breeders site and look forward to recieiving pics of your gsd,
kelly