Just wanted to ask what everyone is doing re. the annual vaccs. We have been concerned for a long time about vaccinating our dogs so frequently, and the majority of what we have read confirms this. Was at the Vets today for a loose tooth (dogs - not mine!) when he noticed Honey was overdue. I said I was concerned about doing it every year, and was thinking of doing it every other year. He went on, that's fine with distemper, what about the other 6 etc etc.

So a few points I need help with clarifying.

Is it necessary to vaccinate every year?

If I don't vaccinate Honey, will my Pup - hopefully coming in 8 weeks time, be at risk

How effective is the test to check their immunity, does it test for all the diseases they are immunised against

I don't want to put my dogs, or anyone elses at risk, but I do not want to over immunise either - that is why my children had the single vaccines and not the MMR

Hope this evokes a good debate!

Hayley

Hi ,

I think yearly vaccinations are important.

Especially when you are thinking about bring a puppy of such a young age into your household.

My dogs are vaccinated every year without fail , i feel its important - others may disagree.

HELEN.

I agree ...Hudson is vaccinated every year. The boarding kennels he goes to wouldn't take him without them and I am not prepared to subject him to the possible risk of the diseases should I choose to not have him vaccinated

Melody :)

Hi Hayley,
I have always vaccinated my dogs annually, and have never had any trouble. But then my son had the single measles vaccine once, then the MMR vaccine twice, and he's fine too!
:)

Hi Hayley
I am very much against yearly boosters so my two dogs (aged 7 & 2) only had the puppy jabs.

Vaccines in themselves do not protect dogs from the canine diseases - they are only the catalyst that urges the immune system to produce anti bodies. So it is the immune system itself that provides the protection. I believe that the immune system has a 'memory' so once it has been shown what to do (by the initial puppy vacs) the adult immune system continues to produce antibodies against the disease for years and years, probably for life. Annual reminders are not needed. In fact booster shots are not only not needed but actually interfere with the antibodies the dog has already formed.

Obviously a lot of vets see things from a different perspective - mainly because annual vaccinations provide them with a steady, regular income.

If only that were true, Joyce! I know of no vaccine (for animal or human) that gives life-long immunity. Even catching the illness itself doesn't always result in immunity! The leptospirosis vaccine in particular has been found to give an average of 10 months protection.

If you are at all concerned about your particular dog's need for boostering, get the titre levels measured. If they show adequate immunity, don't boost. If the levels are low, then boost.

I thought vaccines like small pox etc were life long vaccines but other things like tetanus were ones that needed boostering??

Im all in favour of not having a surgically clean house and letting your body fight off colds without dosing up with all the medications on the market but there are some things that your body just cant fight.

After September 11th I was surprised to learn that the immunity given by the smallpox vaccines we were given as children only lasted about 5 years, and that even when boostered to visit the US in the early 70s (not done any more) that would have worn off as well! :rolleyes:

Well you learn something new everyday!! :)

Jean/G but as I said it's not the vaccines that give the immunity, it's the antibodies made by the immune system.

but the body doesnt produce anti bodies unless the virus is present - the point of vaccines is to introduce a "dead" version of the virus so that the body recognises the intruder and defends itself without there actually being any risk of real illness.

I could be entirely wrong but I think I remember from my studies that there are different parts of the immune system - some were like a muscle that needed to be exercised every now and again or it wouldnt be effective and others were inbuilt and were effective without regular exposure to trigger stimulus. Anyone else know better?? Early senility means I may just have dreamed all that!! :)

You're quite right, Isla.
:)
Edit: Not the bit about early senility! The bit about the antibodies.

lol@JG - just dont tell anyone else about the senility... :D

*barks like a dog and chases her tail*

Just to recap on antibaodies Isla, the body makes antibodies every time it`s challenged by something new,(healthy immune system does this) bacteria/virus etc & most of the time we aren`t even aware of it. It usually overcomes the invaders & when risk has gone it goes into relax mode & antibodies decrease (or not in some cases)BUT the memory cells remember that & each particular challenge. Bets that as clear as mud now! :)

Christine, Spain.

Thats interesting J/Genie, after my pups had parvo I was told by Jean Dodds & Hal Thompson(one of the men who discovered the parvo virus) that they would be immune for life & I won`t have to vaccinate them for it ever in their life.

Christine, Spain.

It's certainly strange, Christine, because I've had mumps badly twice, and my grandmother caught measles 6 times!

No not strange J/genie :) Parvo is a virus & only one kind but having it gives protection for the 2 therefore after having it they are immune to it. Measles has different strains & also some viruses are very similar to measles & unless you test then you can`t say for sure which they had & even if it was measles! The vaccines are fro specific strains of things & therefore give (supposedly) protection for that strain. Had that explained by baby specialist cos I my own daughter had measles twice after her vaccs. This is where science can help me out! :) Just not sure I`ve explained that well tho. Don`t know about mups but she had that as well!
Dodds & Thompson helped me find vaccs without the parvo as well.

Christine, Spain.

I wouldn't say that I am very much against them, but I am sceptical.

I believe that a dog should have puppy vacs, then a boosters at 3-5 year intervals.I also believe that you can overload the immune system with too many.

Having discussed the matter with a friendly vet, we both believe that far more research is needed into whether or not yearly boosters are required. However, its unlikely to happen as it is not in the drug companies profit interest.

Some dogs do have reactions, my old boy used to have terrible skin problems in the months immediately following vaccination, for which no cause was ever found. Stopping boosters improved his skin no end.

Charliepud, how did you get single vaccines for the kids?? Mine is due MMR & I don't like it.

Hi Julia, my lot always suffered skin probs after they had their boosters as well & we never found the cause of it but since I stopped the boosters 2yrs ago the skin problems stopped! :)

Christine, Spain.

am i right in thinking that if you dont give your dog the booster each year that insurance companies wont take you on?
mel:)

Yes, Mel, I'm sure this is in the small print of several insurance companies. Similarly, many boarding kennels won't accept unvaccinated dogs.
It's all down to choices and priorities, really.

I must check my insurance policy then. How effective is the titre test? Are the results straightforward to read, and will different (greedier) vets read them differently. Honey is due a small tooth op next week, so I suppose that would be an ideal time to so it. (I think the receptionist said it costs approx £46)

Julia, they had the single vaccs at Elstree in Hertfordshire as that is where we lived at the time, still have to get little one's Mumps vacc. Best place to look is the JABS website, they are the campaigners against the MMR and for the single vaccs and have a list of surgeries that will do them. They were £60 per jab when we did them

Keep debating, I need loads of info so I can make a decision before the pup is ready!!

Hayley

EDIT - To say I have just read my policy and called UIA whi I insure the dogs with, my policy - and others may be different - states "If you do not keep your pet vaccinated we will not pay any claims that result from any illness that it should have been vaccinated against"

So for us the insurance side of it isn't an issue - but the dog's health side of it is!! There must be a good site somewhere that discusses the pros and con, will have a look tonight when the kids are in bed

personal i get my dogs yearly boosters,i would rather let them have there vaccinations that get a serious illness,as for my children all of them have had there injections its far better then risking them getting seriously ill,but as i said thats my personal choice.

Hayley - have a look at http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/common/vaccinations.html

Or you could do a search on here - the subject comes up at regular intervals !

Thanks Joyce, I can't seem to get it up at the moment, will try again later with that and with the site search

Hayley

Hi Hayley, no it would be the worst possible time to have him boostered. If you decide to go ahead & do it please do it when he is well & not having an op, vaccs should be given to healthy animals only, not when they`re immune system is already comromised by an operation or illness.
Glasgow Diagnostic do titres. Your vet takes a sample of blood 7 sends it to them. Vets can`t disagree with the outcome of the titres, the readings are set by Glasgow Uni Lab thenselves :) & they`re easy to read, but they will tell you if you email/fax them. Why don`t you have that done before you booster??

[http://www.gla.ac.uk/companion/vetsinfo.htm/link]

Christine, Spain.

I thought she meant the titre testing.

Wendy

Mel...My insurance company (Petplan) where informed that I do not give the booster yearly, the only change of cover would be that they would not be covered for any illnesses resulting from not having the booster injection everything is the same level of cover.

Whispered advice from the vet, when having mine done, was it was not worthwhile having the booster injection yearly. @ every 4 years to be safe, leave it to the 5th year is cutting it a bit fine.
Obviously with a older dog, more frequently, common sense prevails.

Hi, regarding titres, the body has memory cells which also play a part & these cannot be tested for so titres can only act as a guide. C. O`Driscoll has had a letter published in Dogs Today, Dogs World & several other papers just a couple of wks ago. Here is an extract.

“To emphasise what is being said here by some very heavyweight veterinary authorities in America: annual vaccination is unnecessary. This is because vaccines stimulate antibodies against infectious diseases, and these antibodies remain in the system for many years, and probably for life. All annual boosters do is introduce viral challenges that are nullified by existing antibodies - no added protection is provided. On top of this, “vaccines are not harmless”.
Having observed that humans got lifetime immunity from most of their childhood vaccines, Professor Ronald D Schultz, head of pathobiology at Wisconsin University, applied the same logic to dogs. He vaccinated them for rabies, parvo, kennel cough and distemper and then exposed them to the disease-causing organisms after three, five and seven years without revaccinating. The animals remained healthy, validating his hunch. He continued his experiment by measuring antibody levels in the dogs' blood nine and 15 years after vaccination. He found the levels sufficient to prevent disease.
Fredric Scott, professor emeritus at Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine, obtained similar results comparing 15 vaccinated cats with 17 nonvaccinated cats. He found the cats' immunity lasted 7.5 years after vaccination. In 1998, the American Association of Feline Practitioners published guidelines based on Scott's work, recommending vaccines every three years.
"The feeling of the AAFP is, cats that receive the vaccines every three years are as protected from those infections as they would be if they were vaccinated every year," said James Richards, director of the Feline Health Center at Cornell. "I'm one of many people who believe the evidence is really compelling." The Merck Manual offers some words of caution. It is produced by a giant vaccine manufacturer called Merck, and it’s the doctor’s ‘bible’. Under childhood immunisation, Merck states that patients with B and/or T cell immunodeficiencies, or from families with B and/or T cell immunodeficiencies, should not receive live virus vaccines due to the risk of fatality (ie death). Merck describes features of B and T cell immunodeficiencies as inhalant allergies, food allergies, eczema, dermatitis, neurological deterioration and heart disease. Does this describe any of your dogs? If so, and if you followed Merck’s advice, you would not give your friend a live virus vaccine."

I`ve got the whole article if anyone would like me to send it to them. I`ve also put up some links on here in the past about this & a search should bring them up. There is no need to booster, according to Schultz & quite a few other experts & I believe them.

Christine, Spain.

Well now it would appear that you learn 2 new things every day!!

Im out of my depth here but the mention of live virus vaccines sounds wrong to me - I dont know about pet vaccines but I was definitely taught that the vaccines we were given was the single cell virus which our body recognises but it was minus the cell contents that allowed the virus to replicate...surely this wouldnt be considered live?

Not arguing with anyone...just going for a hattrick!! Who can teach me my third new thing and watch my brain turn to soup?! :)

Hi I get my boys done every year, and after being at Bournmouth this year with the parvo scare Im glad that i do. Thing is I dont think that many people remember the parvo outbreak of the late 70's (i think please correct if Im wrong) but everyone my parents knew had known a dog that had died from parvo. perhaps distant memories and animal suffering dont encourage people to keep their pets safe. JMO

Hi Hadley, I keep my dogs very safe indeed by not boostering them. My memory may not stretch to the 70`s outbreak of parvo but it well remembers 2yrs ago when 1 of my pups went down with Idiopathic Nodular Panniculitis(direct cause of the vacc) 24hrs after having their first puppy vaccs & then 3 wks later the litter going down with parvo & 2wks later a bitch puppy having a torsion when just recovering from the parvo. I remember their suffering very well indeed yes, so well in fact it has made me read everything I can find on vaccinations before I made my decision not to booster any of them ever again. Look up INP & see what that was like to watch a pup suffering from.

Christine, Spain.

The vaccines given to animals nowadays are usually attenuated, live ones. The dead/killed ones are hard to find now & not used much at all.

Christine, Spain.

Do you know why this has changed and if the difference between the dead and live ones is the difference between complications or not??

I believe it`s because they aren`t deemed affective as the live ones, they`re given over a longer period of time & they can cause even more probs than live ones. You really need to look up the research on them. I don`t know much about them.
Put Dr Ronald Schultz/Dr Jean Dodds or vaccinosis in a search engine & that should get you some info on them.

Christine, Spain.

My parents have stopped having their irish setters boostered, after losing 2 of them to auto-immune haemolytic anaemia. Research is currently being carried out on this disease and its to connection to boosters (theory being that this triggers the disease). My parents oldest dog, 12.5 years old, hasn't been boostered for 8 or 9 years and has rarely been ill. I think ultimately the decision to booster lies with the owner, weighing up all the pros and cons.

Erin

Sorry to hear that Erin.
Jean Dodds has done a lot of work on auto immune disease & vaccs/boosters. Also Sara Gould from Cambridge as well is doing research on it. I`m in a similar position to your parents, the danger to booster my dogs is greater than the risk of them catching a disease. Tho I must say I`ve found them to be in better health since I stopped :)
I`d just like more people to be aware of the cons tho.

Christine, Spain.

It was a truly awful experience for us, our first bitch came down with AHA shortly after her 2nd yearly booster (she was just over 3) the inititial symptoms were she threw up once, then my mum noticed her gums were very pale so she took her to the vets. The vets thought it was a bug but took a blood test just in case, when we got home we had a message to take her back straight away as she needed an urgent blood transfusion as when they looked at the blood microscopically they couls hardly find any red blood cells. Luckily we had her litter brother, so they took blood from him. Tests showed she had AHA, she was put on steroids and various other tablets, but finally after 18 months of skin problems, biopsies, anaemia and the effects of all the drugs enough was enough and we let her go. At the time we were told there was no connection to the booster, it wasn't a hereditary disease and it was just one of those things. Then 8 months after losing Devon, her son came down with it ( again not long after his 1st booster). It started in exactly the same way, he vomited once and then my mum noticed his gums were pale. A trip to the vets for a blood test confirmed our worst fears. We lost Boss in a matter of days, as he was a very big irish setter and went right off his legs so he could no longer stand, we felt we couldn't put him through what his mother went through so we let him go too. Since this second case, we have never had a dog boostered, they all have there initial jabs but thats it. Since this change we have very few illnesses with the dogs, they do seem to generally be healthier thoguh we do still regularly check the colour of their gums just in case. After suffering this terrible disease twice you can never be too careful.

Erin

Hi Christine - I was hoping you'd post on this. As you've probably gathered my research hasn't been as in-depth as yours :) but I've read enough to convince me that over-vaccination causes more problems than people realise - as Erin's post seems to bear out.

Joyce

Hi Joyce, long time no see eh? :)
You`ve read just as much as me, can tell by your posts!!!! :) :)

Christine, Spain.

HI Christine - I would love to see the whole article if you have time to send it to me. If my inbox is too full to receive it ( I'm a bit behind in the "paperwork" dept) could you just send me a quickie contact and I'll send back another email addy? Thank you. I often wonder if a lot of Westie skin probs are down to regular boosting. I dont boost, I always have puppies done and then again at about 3 yrs, 6yrs and so on and have never had typical Westie skin probs/allergies and do wonder if there is a connection. I have used stud dogs from lots of different kennels over the years , so have more or less "invited" these problems to appear but they haven't so far so good! I knwo environemnt plays a big part in allergy probs but Each to their own of course - I wouldn't want to encourage Westie owners to go against their vets advice!!!!

I always have and alwasy will kepp upto my dog's boosters every year. If they did catch anything I would be riddled with guilt if they hadnt had their annual booster.

Does it make a difference to have the booster if your are around livestock such has sheep, cows and horses.
We go on holiday to scotland nearly every year out in the sticks where there is a lot of live stock right on our doorstop. Didn't know if this made a difference or not

WOW! This has given me a lot of food for thought, a lot of it backing up what I thought before, but now at least there is a bit more science to it!

Christine, I would be very grateful if you could send me the article, just click on my name for my addy. At least I can make as an informed a decision as possible. I wouldn't get Honey vaccinated while having her tooth out, but to take a blood test for the titre tests would be okay - wouldn't it?

My only concern is the puppy, I would still give him his initial vaccinations but would be very wary of giving any more, and I would hate to compromise his or my existing dogs health in any way

Thanks everyone!!

Hayley

(Feel free to continue!!!) :) :)

I`ve just sent it Hayley :)

Christine, Spain.

Thanks Christine

It looks good, many many thanks for taking the time, it has already put my mind at rest, although I am still slightly worried about the forthcoming pup. Just done a stack of ironing so will have a look at it properly tomorrow when my brain speeds up again (I live in hope!!)

Hayley :)

Your welcome Hayley :)

Christine, Spain.

No, I can`t see any reason why that would make a difference.

Christine, Spain.

I was beginning to think I was the only one wary of over-vaccination!!

Oh I'm wary of it all right! But I'm even more scared of losing them to those awful diseases. You weigh up the balance and hope you make the right decision.
:)