Thread continued from here

As the other thread was taking too long to get to the end of I would like to reply to Bumblebeacres in a new one - firstly saying how sorry I was to hear of the bite to your daughter's face and I hope her scarring both physical and mental is minimal. However I feel that many of your statements need expanding

He was chewing a bone at the time and did not give warning, but just snapped. The damage was devastating.

It is very rare that there are no warnings - just that humans don't know or learn how to read them :-( It is my opinion that all dog owners should continue to learn about their dogs and not just have them living in the house with them, walking and feeding them.

Since it has accured I have done much research into the matter.
Always fix your pet dogs by 6 months of age.

I assume you mean neuter. This prevents reproduction and some sexual and hormonal actions/reactions - not always any or all types of aggression.

Curb aggressive tendencies by never playing games such as "tug of war".

Disagree with this - play tug games by all means but make sure that you stop when you want to, that the dog releases on command, and that the "toy" remains yours afterwards unless you are doing it as a reward for some good training work

Always make the dog do something such as "Sit" before feeding it treats and dinner.

This can become a ritualised action where the owner gets trained to give treats or meals by the dog sitting :-) The basic idea is good though as it helps with training and control.

Do not let a dog Jump on you, it is a sign of dominance.

!!! Or an enthuiastic pup or dog who is pleased to see you. Very, very few dogs are truly dominant. Again, generally I would agree not to let a dog jump on you or others as we can get injured or at the least very muddy this way.

Do not let the dog sleep in bed with you, instead do consistent crate training.

The second part of this needs a lot more explanation as to what you mean by consistent crate training.

When you are raising the puppy, touch it everywhere and praise it for it's good behavior, never ever hit the dog.

Agree, all dogs should stand still for grooming, eye, ear and mouth examination.
Puppies however are generally very reluctant to let their mouths be examined whilst they are teething.

Choose a breed that is known to be good with children.

!!!! What do you mean by this? That a dog will put up with a lot of pulling around and dressing up or will move away when children come into the room?

Check out the puppies parents.

Many adult dogs that have not been brought up with children don't know what they are and are very sensibly wary of them. Would you then take this to mean that their offspring would not be good with children.

This works both ways - breeders should check out the potential owners and their children - I will not sell a pup to anyone whose children do not behave!

Purchase from a reputable breeder.

Most breeders will consider themselves reputable - I would be very interested to consider what people who buy pups but never intend to breed themselves consider to be a reputable breeder (this would tie in with other threads going on at the moment)

You need to find a home for this dog that has no children and the new owners need to be made aware of the dogs behavior.

This refers to Toby. This is a problem that rescues face - if a dog has bitten many rescues will not accept it as they cannot in all honesty rehome it. Most people, even without children of their own will have them visiting at some point so very often there is only one way out for dogs that bite. Hopefully Toby's problem was due to his abcess and the fact he is a terrier (ducking for cover here as the terrier people will throw things at me). If it is not then his owner says she is taking precautions so any problem should be obvious without damage being caused when she will be able to deal with it appropriately.

Christine

>>and the fact he is a terrier

He's a cocker spaniel and I believe, a dog that has had problems from day one. Has he had the abscess since day one?

>>This is a problem that rescues face - if a dog has bitten many rescues will not accept it as they cannot in all honesty rehome it.

Rescue has no choice. If the dog is passed on and then bites, Rescue is liable.
It's amazing how many people will pass a dog into rescue knowing that the animal should not be rehomed. They seem to take comfort from the fact that they have 'done their best' for the dog. If Rescue has no choice but to have the dog destroyed then the owners conscience is clear as Rescue 'did the deed' and not them.

Leigh

Cocker Rescue will not take a dog that has bitten (assuming that the owners are honest enough to say this is their reason for rehoming, of course) I have a friend who is a Cocker Rescue Officer & this problem does crop up fairly often (she covers an area where there are a lot of puppy farms) - sometimes the owner does not want to take the responsibility for their dog, they just want the problem to go away & someone else to make the decision for them :-(

I haven't been able to follow the thread about Toby for some time (can't get the page to load fully) so didn't know he had an ear abcess. I'm not sure that this abcess would account totally for his reaction (though it may have contributed) - one of our Cockers had an ear abcess a few years ago & was obviously in great pain but she never once so much as growled at anyone in the family (but then she is a v placid dog anyway)

Jane

I help with the goldie rescue and we have to asess each case A dog that has bitten may have done it for a variety of reasons so not everydog that has bitten once should be given up on.
We had an elderly dog who bit its owner and came to my house for fostering, I then found the owner had grabbed it by the collar and it turned out the dog has such a nasty ear infection when the collar rode up near his ears it caused great pain he has now been homed again has not bitten again.
Then we get the young ones that come in if they have bitten a child , most of the time the dog has never been taught by the owners to allow ANYTHING to be taken away and then a child goes to try and do it and gets bitten, IMO thats the owners fault not the dogs my 2year old can take anything away from{but not teased} mine even food as they have been taught that way

Yes, Toby is a Cocker. He had a small op last month to fix the absess and came off the anti-biotics a couple of weeks ago. Since having his ear treated last month there have been no more nips, bites or growls. The vet seems to think that it had been there for at least a few months - so it could very well have been there from when we first had him. Currently we are being very strict (but kind!) with him and accepting no misbehaviour - and all seems to be going fine. I am having my daughter take a more active role in his training and grooming (but under very direct, strict supervision) and he is happy with this.

I do feel like I have a different dog now that he is better, but there is no doubt in my mind, that if he shows any aggression towards my daughter again that he will have to be put to sleep. I would not put him into rescue and have someone else have to deal with it - it would not be fair to them or to Toby.

Hi Helen,

I'm really pleased that Toby is doing well. You must be thrilled. It sounds as if you're doing the right thing with the limited and strictly supervised contact.

I hope that things continue to improve and that toby is able to stay with you and your family.

Fiona

PS - I completely agree with your decision about Toby is he becomes agressive again, a hard choice but the right one.

Helen, I am pleased to hear that the vet has managed to sort Toby's ear. I wish you the best of luck with him :-) Leigh

Helen

I am so glad Toby is on the mend. I keep my fingers x'd that all continues on the right path.

Pam n the boys

Hi Helen

Glad to hear things are going well & that you seem "to have turned" the corner re Toby's behaviour - excellent news!

Jane

Hi Helen,

Sorry for getting Toby's breed wrong and hope life stays calm for you - I must have been thinking of the two Westies?

Christine

I do hope that things willl work out for you, Toby and your family, Helen.

iMHO it does say a lot that he has not apparently growled etc since the op; those of us with older dogs can recall a dog in pain who would never ever bite, but of course we have many years perhpas of building up trust .... its not always the same with youngsters.

It would be very interesting if you could maybe post re Toby in a few months time, if you wouldn't mind, as many of us are following this with interest :)

Anyway, lots and lots of luck for the future.

Christine, IMHO you made some very good points above :)

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay
- care to expand on any of them ? <g>

Christine

'And no, no more german shepards for me it is Shetland Sheepdogs all the way!'
As someone who has owned & loved Gsds virtually all my life can I say the only time I have ever had to go to casualty following a dog bite was by a Shetland Sheep Dog !!!!

Funny that Ingrid I too have had German Shepherds since my teens, I have been bitten twice by dogs, once by by mothers terrier cross and as a child by our pet at the time who was, you guessed, a shetland sheepdog!

Lisa

(In reply to Christine): Well - for example i totally agree with your statement about tuggy games. Many well-respected trainers and behaviourists have said for example, that if a dog repeatedly wins a tug game then it will think after a while that it is stronger than you and so on, and I can understand why, but the key as you have already said :) is control. Heck, a good tuggy game with my Terv pup is great fun for us both, helps us bond and have fun together, i use it as a reward too.

I do use the term "Give" and she will do this at any time, immediately, even during quite "ferocious" tuggy games. She is always under control and loves these games. I would be most sad if we couldn''t play them. I have played them with other dogs too, and my experience ahas only been positive i'm happy to report :)

LIndsay

Hi everyone!
I would like to apologize for offending anyone in my earlier post, I was just trying to be helpful in any way I could.I strongly believe in the statements I made regarding fixing "neutering" your pet. I have, like I said done alot of research ( reading various texts, articles, and interviewing vets, breeders and obedience trainers). I did this research with the sole purpose of learning how to raise a puppy whom would be well socialized and great around my three kids. In regards to dog bitting, German Shepards are a breed listed in the USA as being one of the top 5 along with the Rot and pitbull.
Sorry if that offends, but that is a statistic I have come across. Of course any breed can produce an agressive dog, including my breed of choice. If you choose a reputable breeder, one who breeds for good temperment and health and one who knows something of genetics, and starts with early socialization-----and then the new owner continues the socialization. Chances are that you will have a well behaved dog.
Not playing tug of war is just another way to avoid a potential behavior problem. Afterall there are plenty of other fun and exciting games to play with your dog.Another blunder I made is that I had no idea that Toby had been to the vet, because I did not realize that there was a next page because I am new here,and unfamiliar with the setup.So, I'm glad that things are looking up for Helen and her family. Oh, yes the german shepard was lying down chewing his bone when my daughter walked up to him. Because he had not been properly socialized by me and my husband, the dog did what to him was natural, he was making sure that my daughter knew that the bone was his property.The dog did not growl he just "snapped", but the "snap" from him was not just a scratch, it tore her face open from just under her eye to her mouth and also punctured her cheek and underneath her chin which entered into her mouth and caused injuries inside it. Of course this was devastating and to later find out that it's partly my fault because I did not do what I suggested be done in my last post.Luckily my daughter is doing great! She is now five and loves dogs, any and all dogs.She eventually will need further plastic surgery on the scar, but it looks good considering the damage done. If dog owners were more aware of the correct way to train a dog and socialize it, I think there would be a tremendous decrease in homeless pets. Another thing, put your hand in that wiggley puppies mouth and teach it to be easy, when they are puppies that is when to teach them "easy" not when they have their adult teeth. And yes children do need to respect their pets but dogs need also be trained in being tolerant of children. It is a two way street.
And don't you know the benefits of crate training? If I forgot to reply to something or you want further explanation of my opinions, please do let me know!

Hi Bumble/everyone

Here we go again giving rotties and GSD's a bad name I’m sorry but I know little about Pitbulls but spent 2 years working with rescued rotties in the height of the dangerous dogs bad press days.

I had a very good friend who was one of the local police dog handlers here in south London. We had this discussion several times he was very knowledgeable about both breeds and felt that as with any dog if well trained and socialised they were no more likely to bite, and in some cases less likely to bite than some of the smaller breeds. the problem arose because when the do bite the damage they do can be horrendous so is more likely to be reported.

It is also a media thing back in the late 80's and 90's dog attacks made good press, this is still the case to some extent but not much as it was back then.

I have owned of had contact with dogs my whole life and have been bitten 3 times, twice as a child by a Jack Russell and a Springer Spaniel and once as a adult by a Corgi who went for one of my Rotties in the park and then turned on me totally unprovoked.

I agree with most of the things I read on here regarding training and dealing with dominant behaviour and spent many happy, frustrating and worrying hours making sure the dogs we rehomed were safe. I also agree that a dog who bites leaves the owners with a difficult choice, in my personnel opinion unless their are exceptional circumstances. i.e. medical or the dog was provoked in some way or it was trained to behave in that way which could be corrected by remedial training by a knowledgeable person in a safe environment then having the dog pts is the only option.

Sorry to rant but I do get quite passionate when it comes to knocking two of my favourite breeds

Lucy

Chill Lucy, I don't think bumble was 'knocking' certain breeds, merely pointing out statistic's :-) Leigh (who has owned GSD)

As GSD are one of the worlds most popular breeds, you are going to have them figure quite high on the bite statistics, also if a big dog bites, as it can do more damage, the result may well be hospital treatment and figuring in bite statistics. Also add to that that many irresponsible/scared people will deliberately purchase a breed with a reputation of being aggressive, and even actively encourage it to show maximum guarding behavior. I have met some such people who will say, I don't want my dog to say hello and be friendly to people "he's a gurad dog"!

My work brings me & my colleagues into daily contact with dogs nationwide, recently during a training programme on how to deal with aggressive dogs the top 3 on the reported bite list were
1. Golden Retriever
2. Border Collie
3 Terriers

This came as a bit of surprise. the Rotties, Gsd etc were not even in the top 10, perhaps this is because the people that own these dogs are more careful with them, or perhaps just that the other breeds are more often trusted by visitors, and yes they still used a picture of a snarling GSD on all the literature !!!!!!!

I'm sure that the DDA has had a major impact on how people 'allow' their dogs to behave. Maybe it also has something to do with registrations dropping in both GSD and Rotties, where as there is a steady rise in Golden Retriever and Border Collies numbers. As terriers are non specific, can't look at those registrations.

Leigh

Hi!
Thanks Leigh for coming to my defense, I was just pointing out a statistic, not trying to bad mouth a breed. I totally agree about big damage bites from bigger dogs. I also agree about those who wrongly train their dog as a guard dog and then bring them around social situations especially with children. Every dog has it's only unique personality regardless of breed. If you get a good breeder, they should spend the time matching up the puppies personalities according to potential families. I also believe that puppies should never go to a new home during their 8th and 9th week( their fear period). Doing so can cause negative behavioral problems that last their whole life. I'm just interested in breeding dogs that have the most outgoing and positive temperments, I'm not interested in producing and encouraging guard dog type behavior. Families having a great family dog is my main goal. Most children love dogs, they want to love them and a good dog loves them back. By the way, where did you get that statistic on Goldens?
I am shocked. Was this done in the UK ? In the US there are countless numbers of Goldens, and I have yet to hear of any real problems aside from health issues such as hip dysplasia. You all have a great day!
Bumblebee

Hi Bumblebee, if you are referring to my post about the goldens, then yes it is a UK firm and the statistic comes from their own personal records of employee reported dog bites which have to be reported to the company to cover against future complications resulting from them. Whether these ever become part of Official records depends largely on what further action is taken and whether they are reported to the Police.
Ingrid

Hi bumblebee I found your advice to the board to be very wise indeed and though it will not suit some,(those who know their own breed best), it was good solid advice for a new puppy owner.I must say you were very brave to relive that whole ordeal in an effort to avert more tradgedy. well done girl {{{hugs to little girl}}} best wishes. mari

I have to agree that Boarder Collies do come up on the top of the list for biting. I have a Boarder Collie and she was re homed from Battersea last year. She can bite and it does cause us concern. We deal with it by telling people not to touch her if we are out or if we are in a public place full of people she has to wear her muzle (sorry spelling crap) I want molly for ever and I love her very much and for that I am over causious (sorry at it again!).

I also have a Border Collie and there herding instints can make them nip.

My BC has never nipped other than when he was at the puppy stage.

My previous BC when I lived with parents was a right ankle nipper but he never drew blood.

Karen

I'm surprised that you have not taken advice from battersea about your dog biting Have you not contacted them about this ?

Also is she definitely a border collie ? Most multi breed rescues tend to guess at a dog breed by what they look like not by knowledge. One of my ISDS border collies would be classed as a x breed by multi breed rescues as he does not resemble the expected public image of the border collie As I was present @ conception & birth I know what he is

Border Collies are NOT suitable for first dog owners they need an understanding of working temperament & training

It is the lack of training & channelling of the desire to work (that is extremely important) that causes most problems

My dogs have no problems with humans of any ages & therefore according to these surveys must be the exception, except that in my short experience in dogs(now only 44 years of training problem dogs)they are not ?

It is very unusual in my brief experience for border collies to have uncurable people problems

All it takes is patience & time something most "pet"owners seem reluctant to invest in their dogs

"Ouch" ....aren't we all 'Pet' owners first and foremost? All my dogs work, but they are also 'pets' too :-)

Of course you're right Leigh, but by working your dogs it shows that you put time in to training them, which is what most "pet people" don't want to do or have the time to do. So many think that dogs behave well "naturally" which is rarely the case!
It has been said to me many times that families want to "rescue" a dog because they don't want the chewing and house training stuff. They don't realise that many dogs are in rescue because they have a problem (usually of human making!) which needs understanding and retraining, sometimes even more commitment, patience and understanding than taking on a puppy!

>>"by working your dogs it shows that you put time in to training them, which is what most "pet people" don't want to do or have the time to do. So many think that dogs behave well "naturally" which is rarely the case! "

My dog is a "pet" and as a pet owner I appreciate the need for training (along with many other thousands of pet owners)
I agree that owners of "working" dogs do perhaps spend more time to get their dog to a higher level of training for whatever "job" they do but I want to stand up for "pet" owners and say many of us take our dogs to a level of training that involves good manners and obedience and makes them a pleasure to own and meet ! :)
I think perhaps you should have used the words "some pet owners" NOT most :)
Sara

Good Sarah, I'm glad that you feel that way. I wish that more people did the same.

Val - must be the people I talk to instilling good sense into me and giving me good advice !! ;)

oooooooops - it seems you are not the Val I thought you were (and that I talk to) so this post wouldn't have made alot of sense ( not that mine usually do anyway lol)

Take your point about Rescue dogs Val :-) but as you will know, on the whole it tends to be mostly "Pet" people who take on Rescue Dogs! I tend to think that the term "Pet" owner does get used in a derisory manner on occassions. There are many knowledgeable "Pet" owners out there too. Leigh

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.:) But I trim "pet dogs" (not said as a derisory term, but fact) every day, and except for a minority, most complain (and laugh) at their dog's behaviour or manners. Many come in with wounds, having been attacked by other dogs when walking. Others have to be shut in the kitchen when the family have visitors etc.etc. One actually brought her neighbour to see me pick up their Miniature Schnauzer and put it on the table because she didn't believe that I did! I don't know how she thought that I trimmed it. The dog was no problem at all.;) I spend nearly as much time training the dogs as I do trimming them! I recommend local training classes regularly and refer to our Canine Behaviourist at least twice a month. The results obtained depend if the owner is prepared to put the time in.:rolleyes:
When I home my puppies, over the years, the majority have gone to pet homes. In no way is that derisory.:D A "good pet home" is worth 100 show kennels where the dog gets little human companionship! But before they take a puppy, my new owners, if with good intent but little experience, are educated in responsible dog ownership and training before they take their puppy.
Pet owners undoubtably make up the vast majority of dog owners in this country, which makes them very valuable to those of us who make our living grooming and when homing our extra puppies!:D But many see a dog as "natural addition" to their family and expect it to fit in automatically, without training.:( They don't get one of my puppies!:p
I am sorry if anyone is personally offended by my post. It was a comment about pet owners generally and nobody in particular other than those I know personally.
I hope that the emoticons will set the tone, which is often lacking in these posts:D

VAL THE EMOTICANS ARE LIKE A LITTLE ALIEN INVASION CHUCKLING. TAKE A LOOK. MARI

Not sure if you did get my reply, my computer droped out in mid flow. Battersea were not aware of Molly BC does nip. She is not my first dog, I grew up with Boarder Collies. Have no problem if I homed a pupy. Could not care less if it chewed up the house! I live on a farm, Molly is going into training for flyball in the spring. She is healthy and I love her very much. I am not a air head as you made me out to be. Back off a little bit not every dog owner is a bad person.

As you grew up with Border Collies on a farm you will be aware that they all need training of some kind.

Having been involved in training Border Collies for trialling, working trials, obedience, stage, show & pets I'm surprised that you are just going to train a dog that is known to bite to do flyball with no basic control

The local flyball club here insists on GOOD basic obedience before flyball is started. If you have to muzzle your dog in public how will you stop her biting the box assistant if she wants to ?

Obviously I never said you were an air head nor that she was your first dog. You should still advise Battersea that she bites. Aren't all Battersea rehomes supposed to be assessed BEFORE being rehomed ?

Border Collies I repeat are NOT first time owner dogs.

I agree with you Val I deal with many pre owned rescues that have been allowed to do just as they want & hence learn bad habits especially nipping to prevent being abused by humans.

I still believe that dog ownership is a privilege NOT a right. I also would like a dog owners licience like a driving licience before a dog is acquired after all you cannot get into a car without first passing the driving test

Well said!

Think I read somewere that of the bites needing hospital treatment in the UK the highest number were caused not by dogs but by man. Makes you think. Jackie H

Hi, and thanks Mari and Sierra for the positive posts.
That statement about more people bites reported than dog bites is hilarious! I wonder where the bites were located. Apparently people are taking the term "bite me" way to seriously!
Hey Ingrid, thanks for responding on the golden stats. What is your profession, if you don't mind me asking? Sounds interesting.

My son and daughter were trampolining (sorry if I spelt that wrong) on my bed, when they bounced into each other - and my sons teeth jabbed into my daughters head and split her scalp.....off to hospital we went(again!), and her accident was recorded as a "human bite"! The doctor told us that human bite wounds are usually more likely to become infected than dog bite wounds because we have more bacteria in our mouths than dogs and sure enough the wound became infected and she had a course of antibiotics to clear it up! :) ;)

Hi Bumble

As the person who originally responded I had not taken offence at your email as it contains some good point - just that many of them need to be expanded upon

Christine

if you research in the uk you will find most dog bites are from little dogs(I have toy breeds as well as working dogs before anyone jumps on me) the difference being few people get badly hurt by little dogs & therefore incidents are not reported.

I've only been bitten twice in over 50 years the first was a labrador guide dog for the blind in the 60's & the other was a bearded collie

I train problem dogs & their owners & usually problems are due to physical problems like Tobies or bad or inexperienced owners incorrect treatment of dogs. Very few dogs cannot be brought round but it does take patience & understanding

I never condemn any breed on the behaviour of some of its type.

As for "fixing" solving problems nice earner for vets in most cases

i agree that most dog bites are from smaller dogs but they don't cause as much damage. I have been bitten by a chihuahua which didn't draw blood, a rottweiler bit me on my face and i needed plastic surgery ! i have also had a few near misses from boxers/labradors/jackrussels/gsd's/border collies !!! (it comes with my job unfortunetly) and i have had to pick up someone's finger of the floor as a newfoundland bit her !(She and her finger are fine) so i really think it doesn't matter what breed it is but how they are trained/bred/the circustances in which they have bitten in before anyone can judge a breed for biting - YOU NEVER CAN TELL ! the rotti that bit me was the friendliest dog ever and lived with a small family it was just the situation that caused her to bite. (i still love rotties !)