Well firstly thanks to all who responded yesterday for my plea of help
on hand rearing. especally the people who emailed me. The info was very valuble
I was going to hand rear pups due to eclamsia in my bitch under my vets advice.
He was very cut and dry about the situation and didn"t want to discuss any
other options. I took the pups away and started to gather info myself though the
board but mostlly phoneing all the breeders i could. The pups were put back with
mum last night to hey absolute delight. I am going to monitor her all the time
supliment her calsium etc. This morning to my delight 7am Dolly came up to the
bedroom as she always do"s time to get up wag wag wag heeler smile kiss kiss.
jumped all round my bed. Downstairs there were the pups snuggled up very
contented.I hope i am doing the right thing the vet just seemed to eager to
make the discision. I know if anything go"s wrong its down to me but im sure i am
doing the right thing for my girl.

Hi Kay,

I've not really got any useful advice but I just wanted to say - GOOD LUCK and I've got my fingers crossed for you.

Fiona

Thanks very much.
It" been a hard choice to make.
I am not thinking i know best on the subject but there are so
many differing opinions that you can not always just trust your vet.
I think his info was aired on the side of caution, quite rightly he wouldent
want anything to happen to his patent. But lets face it to have no slight risk factors then my bitch would not have had pups in the first place.
I am very nervous as my vet was clear that it was his way or suffer the
consequences.

Good luck with both pups & mum. By the way, I sent you an email.

Sharon
Thanks for your email.
This is Dolly"s second litter.
The first i had no problems with at all. If she is going to be prone to
this condition with future litter i will not let her have any more.
Anyone with info re this point i would be very interested.
What dogs do you have now Sharon

None at all, haven't had a dog for 10 years, since my dog died at a very respectable old age- but will be collecting lhasa apso pup at the weekend - I'm very excited about that. I've missed all that trouble you get with a dog!!!!

How exciting
wish you all the luck and happiness in the world.
Bet your not gona spoil it are you.

You only have to see that awful vet paractice thing on the tv to realise how very LITTLE a newly graduated vet actually knows. Give me an old fashioned vet any day......common sense prevails!

I didn't reply to you before because my opinion was contrary to that of your Vet, and I would never suggest that anyone disregarded their Vet on my recommendation BUT now you've made your decision my understanding is that once the bitch has had the calcium injection, with supplementation for ongoing support, she should be kept with the puppies. George Macleod, MRCVS thinks that the parathyroid is involved. His book Dogs: Homoeopathic Remedies ISBN 0-85207-218-X is available from your local library. It's only £6.95 to buy and you may find interesting for the future. Good luck.

Val
You were right in your choice not to get involved in my decision.
As it was difficult enough for me to make, i would have arrived at
it quicker if my vet had been more open to the info i had collected.
I had always known of the condition and the action to take but up
until now had not experienced it first hand. I am just glad i had
enough common sense to see Vets are not perfect.
I have had a couple of run in"s with him along similar lines, and starting
to question if he is the vet for me.
Thanks for the book ref i will be interested to read up on this whole
issue.
Thanks for your honest reply kay

I have a very good vet and do trust him however over the years the one thing I have found is that I always get sound advice from my breeder and have on occassions gone with her advice rather than my vets. OK she is not a qualified vet and would never pretend to be and often says best get it checked out BUT she does have 20 odd years experience in my breed and is passionate about anything and everything there is to know both about the breed and any medical problems that may arise. I think it's always best to ask around to get different advice/opinions and then make your choice.

Good Luck and I hope both pups and mum are still doing great :-)

And by the way I think vets hate it when you question them which is something I have learned is a valuable thing to do and now I question my vet so much that he just grins from ear to ear everytime he see's me and says "what now" ;-)

Think they hate it even more when you have done some research into the problem and offer suggestions, although my vet now welcomes it after the numerous problems I have given him in the past :D

They all look wonderful.
And mum is very happy and looks a1
Thanks.
Ive always asked advce from other heeler breeders.
Its was just how adement he was that i would not be acting in
my bitches best interest if i went aganst his opinion that set me off
worrying.

On the way to the emergency vets, me and my partner were discussing
how people who just decide to have a litter of pups for no good reason
do not always understand the implications.
Like us you have to be ready to drop everything at a moments notice
and in our case drive 45 minuites at 11pm with cheque book at the ready
not arrive home till 3am start prepareing milk for pups stay up all night
and the list go"s on. And if inexperienced would not question vets
decision and be feeding pups themselves its not for the faint hearted.
or anyone who dosn"t like there bank balance takeing a hammering.

good luck but somtime the breeder know best,than the vets.

this is probably asking the obvious but are you wacking the liquid calcium into her, ---3 in the morning seems to be a very popular time at the vets ,as you where leaving yours at 3 ,i was arriving at mine at 3, did you have a mist over your eyes trying to drive ,i could hardly open mine ,

One of our elkhound bitches developed signs of eclampsia with one of her litters - staring into corners, panting, moving the pups etc. She was treated with a calcium injection, and went on to rear her litter as usual with no further problem with calcium as a supplement.

My initial reaction to your posting was that I think that you need a new vet.Which I saw later is something you have been considering yourself.

As you are with your dog all the time (compared to the few minutes the consultation with the vet takes) I would reckon that you are in the best position to see how your bitch and puppies are coping.And lets face it you could always go back to hand rearing if mum isn't coping.

Hope everything goes okay for mum and pups.

My faith in vets took a dent in the first visit with our westie as they tried to sell me dried complete food (for which they are on commision!!)whereas my breeder had distinctly told us not to feed complete food as it can lead to skin problems in our breed.

Glad to hear everything seems to be going well now, they do like to give us a fright dont they. I was in an identical situation about 15 years ago with a GSD bitch, my vet also advised me to handrear the 11 pups that she had and recommended that if I felt 11 was too many to hand raise I had half the litter pts! I was panic stricken and quite sure that I would fail if I tried to rear them myself (they were only 2 days old when she became ill). I rang the breeder of my bitch in complete hysterics and he told me not to worry and to put them back with mum which I did. Sadly we did lose one pup a couple of days later but she reared the other 10 with no problems at all, and still looked a picture of health when they were weaned.
Needless to say I also changed my vet!

Lisa

Heelerkay you know your dog better than any vet .you are doing the right thing following your own instincts. I would say the crisis is past now . best wishes with the puppies and I hope all goes well from now on mari

Vets, like Drs, have thoughts of litigation in the back of their mind all the time so will invariably err on the side of caution which is obviously not always the best for those animals or people involved. I agree with Claire that after taking on board all the available information you make your own choices for your own animals. I would give the same advice to people when it comes to their own health, all too often a Drs advice is never questioned and I believe we should all make our own informed decisions and not worry too much if this sometimes is not what the professional reccomends.
Ted

We have just hand reared a litter of 5 pups after mum died during a section, we lost one at 2 weeks and had other 4 on drips for 2 days at vets, I have NEVER had such a traumatic period in my life and would never like to go through it again, any other option available has got to be considered in IMHO. sorry to sound dramatic but our pups went through so much and we breathed every breath for them up to 6 weeks old. I'm so glad your bitch and pups are doing well.
Good luck Lorraine

Oh i no the vets like doctors get it wrong.
When i was working i worked as a tecnician in a cardiology dept
Blunders by Doctors were frightening enough that i do not want to be ill.
I have been overwelmed by the post i have recieved, and i am not just
saying this. iIt really has helped.

I must be a very lucky person indeed in view of all these negative post re: Vets I trust My own Vet implicitly he is the best there is and I would not go against him in a grave matter like this as I said in a previous post I had a bitch with eclampsia and it was devastating and I would rather lose my puppies than her even though I didnt want to lose any of them,I Quote This
' Re: Eclampsia this is a terrifying condition and can be fatal to the bitch the calcium level of the bitch becomes too low, due to puppies demand for her milk,It is imperative that the Vet is contacted and an injection of calcium injected into a vein to save the life of the bitch,the response is dramatic within minutes she will be walking about normally again,However once the blood calcium has been this low,the puppies should be weaned off her to ensure eclampsia does not recur.It may be possible to prevent Eclampsia by ensuring adequate calcium intake during lactation but other factors are involved as eclampsia can still occur despite increased calcium levels'. I do hope your Bitch is ok.

Thanks for the concern shown for my bitch Dolly.
I have no intention of loseing her and agree totally that the pups
come second to mum. But i feel if monitored closely and calcium level
keeped up it is better to let her nurse her pups a little longer.
I am very sorry about your bitch. What happened? Did the injection not
work.What sort of dog was she.

Also my vet has done a little more research.
and this morning Dolly went for another calcium injection injected
between the skin and the muscle for slow release.
He now agrees after talking to his partner that monitoring the situation
is probabaly not such a no no and said how healthy she was.
her heart sounds are normal temp weight everything is fine.