hi there. im new to the site, so this is my first posting. found the site whilst racking my brains for yet another way to sort our dog out! bit of background info. the dog is a border collie, blue merle bitch....10 months old now, got her from a farm somewhere in deepest wales back in february. name is maiya. we used to have a regular border collie (had to be put down last year due to health problems) and had no issues with her whatsoever, so we arent completely new to keeping a dog. okkkkk - when we got maiya, she was fine - no problems atall - really easy to train, couldnt ask for more. only thing that bothered her was tall people. they didnt scare her as such, but she was a bit timid around them. 7 months have passed, and this is the state of play now....................

constant, needless barking at people outside the house, other dogs, bicycles, (infact, alot of the time she barks at nothing)

refusal to return to the lead after walks

viscious behaviour towards us if the postman has delivered mail

aggressive behaviour towards people knocking at the door, or coming through the door - sometimes even if she recognises them, and has previously been fine with them (this does not include inhabitants of the household)

undistractable behaviour (ie, once something is in her head, she will continue no matter what)

we have taken Maiya to the vets, and they have suggested never shouting at her, muzzling her in public, keeping her away from the door until the post has arrived, attending training classes, and the possibility of a behavioural therapist (unfortunately, my pet insurance doesnt cover behaviour, so cost could be a problem with this)

Maiya has attended a few training classes in the past, but i feel concerned now about her behaviour and how she may behave with a large group of people and other dogs.

a breeder at kennels we had to put maiya in for a couple of days whilst on holiday suggested changing her food, which we have done. she now eats a complete dried food mix as opposed to canned food. she also suggested having maiya put down, and starting again - obviously we do not want to let things go this far.

we recently purchased a special collar which lets out a high pitched beeping sound when the dog barks.......she's had this on for nearly a week now, and seems to not care about the noise. luckily, the company that makes these offers a guarantee so we can get our money back if it doesnt work. they suggest the collar will work after a few weeks. i am not convinced we will notice a change in the level of maiya's barking.

ive been reading through some of the other message threads, and the behaviour of some of your dogs does sound very familiar.........the obsessive behaviour, the barking whilst playing, the misbehaviour off a lead (we used to let maiya off, but had to stop due to her behaviour)

any suggestions at all would be really welcomed, as it is getting particularly difficult living with a dog that displays this behaviour. it is made even more difficult by the fact that, at times, maiya can be very well behaved and loving to us within the home.

thanks,

saytarn

Hi saytarn if you've read the posts you'll see I have similar issues but without the aggressive territorial bit. My heart goes out to you. It is awful when things get on top of you with a loved dog and I remember the horrible feeling of failure and guilt at thinking I was a hopeless dog owner! I found the PADS website very helpful and they have counsellors you can call who are excellent and dont make judgements about you or your dog. Adolescence in dogs kicks in about 6 months and apparently lasts 8 - thats good we've only 4 months left !- when they push all your buttons to challenge authority, but without meeting a dog and knowing the history its hard to say this is what it is. If it is teenage behaviour what I do with Morse is backto basics to avoid a situation where he can defy me successfully - I eat first, I stand on his bed but hes not on mine, I go through doors first and I demand he moves out of my way. No recall? No offlead back to the long line. It is exhausting mind you, and I dont always get it right. Dog behaviourists come at varying rates and we actualy saved up for an intial consultation with one - it was worth it to get my confidence back, so maybe think about it? Love to you and Maiya.

I have 2 border collies 1 blue merle and 1 red tri and they were both east top train and then they got 2 6-8 months and went through their teenage stage Cassie being the worst used to bark at men run off steal food and generally be a pest we kept taking her to dog training and just never gave up with her. Collies are a very highly active breed and need to be ocupyed. Haveyou thought of trying afility not to much as her bones won't of developed properly just thing like the tunnel small jumps showing her the obsticles maybe walking her over the dog walk and you could also try heel-work. Mine came out really well when i started agility and really enjoy it. As for letting her off the lead if she doesn't want to come pick up a toy she likes or even a bit of grass and in a really exiting voice say wow look at this and totally ignore her and collies being curious she should come and then really praise her and give her a treat or toy. also play games like tug of war to teach her being with you is fun. As to barking just ignore her and then when she is quiet fuss and treat her. Both of mine used to pull on the lead but when i started a bit of heel work and the being close to me i more fun that all seemed to work. If she pulls you can also try a halti.Just what ever you do don't have her put down. Good luck with her if you want to know anything else just ask.
where abouts are you located

Saytarn, this sounds so sad and I am totally shocked that anyone could suggest having a dog destroyed - no make that disgusted , it just goes to show you really need the right kind of 'expert' - I dont claim to be one of those but one thing I have learned about collies is that they are the most intelligent animals I have had the pleasure of meeting. Its all good and well getting a puppy and beginning classes but for a dog of this breed I suggest the classes/training NEVER end. Our family collie was clicker trained and the trainer was excellent the dog is over a year old now and still she is being clicker trained - she learns so quickly you can even teach them tricks - when I say tricks I don't mean for our enjoyment but for her to think about doing something, she is much more tired after a training session than any walk!! Our trainer used to watch the puppies in our class and always noticed when an individual was being over protective of certain area's or people/owners and these pups were moved around accordingly and sometimes given to another owner for that session. our collie also has puzzle toy's in which you can hide food items - she plays with these for hours. On walks she used to be reluctant to return but again the clicker training came in handy if she came back for no reason on walks she still got a click and a reward eventually she associated coming back to us with rewards and now she's fine..Do you tell yours off when she comes back? This will make her reluctant to come back next time. She has to know that you are whats important and should be willing to come back to you. When you have visitors do they welcome the dog with open arms encouraging her to jump up?? Perhaps you can ask visitors to completely ignore her (even eye contact) and only interact with her when you choose to - you dictate when play and interaction takes place. As I mentioned I am no expert and am only making suggestions The collar you have bought may be summing up what is happening right now in that you are concentrating on trying to cure the symptom rather than the underlying problem. Get a good trainer - I cant recommend clicker training more highly enough...Go back to basics get your dog socialising again and give her lots to do and think about - I hope this gives you a starting point and something to think about. Good luck
Sarah.
ps. sorry its long.

hi. persevere with her. i cant believe someone actually told you to *put her down and start again*!!. thats terrible.

If she's from a farm she will need her brain exercising, or she will find something to do by herself - be it barking, chasing, etc. It is very possible that if you are able to get her tired using her brain, and gen up a bit on good basic obedience, and get her keen on toys, that in time (and with perseverance!) the awkward behaviour will stop.

My friend "works" her farm bred collie on walks, and directs him to his toy. They work as a team and he was fulfilled in this way. She nearly gave up on him - he suffered from separation anxiety and was destructive. He's 14 now and her best friend.

I highly recommend "Understanding the Border Collie" by Carol Price, as although you have had a BC before, this one sounds more demanding and understanding the "whys" means you are part way to where you want to be..... :)

Lindsay

Hi, I think your vet had pretty good advice for you. Behaviourists fees vary enormously, so don't worry too much about cost until you've found out what it is!
It sounds like a lot of your dogs problems are rooted in fear, compounded by possible bad breeding. This is something that cannot be solved by training or by punishment, it needs to be an intensive programme of desentisation and confidence building. To do that properly, especially in a breed as sensitive and intelligent as a border collie you will need expert help.
I do agree that she would benefit from more mental stimulation, such as trick training and interactive toys. If she is unpredictable it will be impossible to give her the physical exercise she needs to tire her out (can you ever tire a bc??) so you need to make up for that. Lack of stimulation is bound to make the problem worse.
As for the post, can you get one of those mailboxes that fits to the outside of the house? That would be the least distressing way.
I would make an appointment with a behaviourist as soon as you can, because if it becomes habit while your dog is in the hooligan stage, it will be fully formed when he reaches adulthood.

Jo

She sounds very much like a bright dog - a typical collie infact....... Does she actually come from 'working stock' ? And what kind of things do you do with her during the day to keep her occupied? Collies are normally very bright, and they need to be 'steered' towards the sorts of things we want them to do - or they will find the things that they find rewarding, and these are usually the sorts of things we don't want :(

This does sound like typical 'working collie' behaviour. You really do need to keep her mind occupied, just a few short training sessions a day. A typical training class ie with lots of other dogs is not the best thing for this type of collie it will only wind her up, a one to one with an experienced trainer would be much better. Even if you could only afford it short term, they should be able to show you what type of training would best suit her.

I agree with a previous post Carol Price's book is worth reading, it really does help you understand the mind of a collie, which is like no other. Don't give up as she is at that age where she is testing you to the limit, if you have put in the training previously it will come back.

Just a thought, but could she be due in season or had a season 9-10 weeks ago. Hormones seem to upset collies more than any other breed I know.

While she is like this, it might be a phase, so try and not be confrontational about difficult situations. Put her in a position where ever possible that they do not occur. Shut her away when the postman is due, shut a door between you and the front door for when someone comes in, put her somewhere she cannot see whatever is winding her up outside, but above all you must keep CALM when these situations arise.

When you are training her see if she will switch on to a 'special' toy. Only use this when training, never let her play with it without you. When you feel she sees it as 'special' and she will, use it at the end of a walk for a 'special' simple training session, just sits or down and mini recalls, you will then have control of the situation, gently hold her collar and put her in the car or back on the lead with a treat. Don't try it until you have mastered it at home/garden first though.

Good Luck and keep us posted

Sandra

thanks for all your advice everyone. its great to find people out there who dont want to give up. i'll try and answer some of the questions you all posed.

i come from gloucester, in the uk. my dog came from a working farm in wales. we have been trying to work with maiya by ignoring bad behaviour, and rewarding good behaviour - we dont shout at her at all :0). also, the bleeping collar - its having no effect at all, so i took it off today - it really was a matter of getting it to help us and the neighbours deal with the constant barking, (they havent complained yet, i dont know why) not as any kind of training aid.

i went back to the vets today for an update session......it was terrible. last time i went to the vets with maiya because of the behaviour issues, she barked, and was agressive towards the vet for over 45 mins.

this time, i went into the surgery alone and left maiya in the car for a bit. this meant that i could actually hear what the vet suggested this time! the vet then came out to see maiya while i had her out on the lead in the carpark area. she went mad again. i got her to a calm point where she laid on her back so i could tickle her belly, but 2 seconds later she flipped over again, and started to go for the vet. the vet basically said ours was the 'worst' dog she had ever had to deal with! i am calling the dog behaviourist tonight to arrange an initial consultation.........after that, ive got to go back to the vets so maiya's eyes can be checked (under sedation i might add) incase theres anything wrong there. the vet said if things dont improve, i may have to consider having her put down. what is it with these people? thats surely a last resort, and i would only come to that conclusion if it became obvious there was no hope, and i own a potentially dangerous dog (which it actually does kinda feel like at the moment).

anyway - ive arranged to take maiya back to training this evening - this person is both a trainer and behaviouralist - she seems to believe things can and will get better, thank god. the training is going to be pretty basic - really to aid in me getting back some control, and to help maiya feel both more relaxed and socialised. i hope it goes ok.......

thanks again for all your feedback - it helps to hear some positive stuff at times!

jo

If i were you i'd change vets if he is saying have her put down i would never give up on mine no matter how bad their behaviour. I think you should definately give training classes a try take her with a muzzle on just incase she does decide she is going to bite any one it will be good for her confidence and also help socialise her

I would certainly change vets, you at least expect your vet to be helpful and constructive, ask at your training class if they can recommend one for you. Explain the problem to the vet before taking the dog in. That's not to say I would advocate keeping a dog that is unpredictable in a dangerous way, you may well have difficult decisions to make, after all owning a dog should be a pleasurable experience on both sides and it doesn't sound like either of you are experiencing this at the moment.
On the positive side she is only 10 months old and you owe it to both of you to try and overcome this, her age is in her favour and you have been unlucky this time round with having a collie with such strong working instincts, hopefully with the correct help you can channel this (I doubt you will ever eradicate them completely) to help her become a happier dog within your home.

I am sorry but I am going to go against the grain here. I have huge sympathy for Jo who is obviously doing all the right things trying to help Maiya as I have been there also - and I really hope that it is successful. But - having had a young dog who was incurably aggressive due to a medical condition - and having seen my mother go through the agonies of trying for 3 years to turn around a dog who was unpredictably aggressive (also a working farm collie) - both of whom in the end had to be put down for the safety of the people they lived with (not to mention people outside) - I find the rather blase view of "never give up" both upsetting and dangerous. Sometimes there is no choice - you cannot responsibly put a dog's life above the safety of people.

And sometimes it is also the kindest thing you can do for a dog that is clearly disturbed and unpredictable. My lad and my mother's both died cradled by the people who loved them, gently and peacefully. In contrast I know of a dog that was pts after a biting incident that was muzzled and had its feet bound together before the vet would go near it - and another that was running loose in a house having suddenly attacked someone (but with aggressive history) that was cornered and euthanised while being pinned against a door by its neck. I am sorry but I know what I would choose - sometimes all you can give them is a dignified and peaceful end - they do not get this if it becomes an official matter.

I am not saying that it will come to this with Maiya - and Jo, you are right to try everything you can think of. Have her tested for medical conditions - our young dog had autoimmune thyroiditis which the vets said was the cause of his sudden aggressive outbursts - the outcome was the same but it helped to know why. Training, specialist help - perhaps providing work for her (my mother trained her collie in agility to try to give him an outlet). And do all of it with your safety and that of others as the first priority - please muzzle her in any situation where she might bite - for her sake as well as others.

I really hope it works out for you and Maiya. She is a lucky dog to have you as in many hands she would not have got this far or have been given the chances she has. But if, god forbid, you reach the point that we did, knowing that we could not control or predict the aggression, please please don't feel there is any shame in letting her go. That too can be an act of love.

With all best wishes -
Janet

I think you are dead right in what you have said. We try on here to give all the advise we can to help, as it is impossible to know what the scale of the behaviour is.

Some people think a mouthing puppy is being vicious, and others will play down very unacceptable agressive tendencies.

In cases of aggression I think the best advise has to be to have the dog dispassionately assessed, by someone truly knowledgeable. Also to have a thorough he3alth check, as epilepsy and Thyroid dysfunction among othr things can cause temperament change.

Saytarn

Read your post and understand what you are going through!

I see you have changed her food from tinned to a complete dry meal but changing diet usually means from too high a protein one to one of a lower protein type. Did you check the balance of protein/fats/carbohydrate between what she was on before to what she has now?

I know BCs are 'working' dogs but if they're not actually working they don't need the high protein levels and this often results in hyperactivity etc. It might be worth a change to a lower protein level. Also, don't keep her hungry which is another reason why collies get agitated - they need full tums but of the right kind of food.

Is your house a calm one or do you have lively children with lots of bustling about? Collies are known to be very sound and movement sensitive so high levels of activity keeps them in a high state of arousal. Following on from that, pick your training classes carefully. Ones held outside could have your dog watching flying birds, leaves falling, cars passing etc.etc. Large classes in a confined space could have her very excited as there is lots of movement from both dogs and handlers in close proximity.

Carol Price's book has already been mentioned and again I would say it's one of the betst I've read on collies. Also, find something that does capture her attention and channel her energy into that so instead of for ever correcting her for doing wrong she is encouraged to do right. Agility can be a good thing, especially if she is introduced to the seesaw which takes an awful lot of concentration for the dog to execute properly.

Can't think of anything else but if I do I'll come back.

Elaine

I cant believe a vet would suggest destruction of a healthy 10 month old dog - this is so wrong. Despite this dogs problems she wouldn't be the first that disliked visits to the vet in which case the vet should be happy to try new ways of examination - even if that means going out to the car park in-fact I see it often at our surgery...Be positive saytarn (Jo) she's got her whole life ahead of her, persevere.....The only thing that should go is the VET!!!
Sarah

hiya - just an update......

took maiya to training classes tonight. first of all, maiya was great with the other dogs (there were only 3 others) and the trainer. training was held indoors, in a controlled environment. i was really happy with how maiya had greeted everyone, and thought things would go well. however.....once the training started, i completed an exercise in ignoring other dogs and distractions, and she wasnt too bad. the trainer then asked if she could take maiya round the circuit. i started to walk towards the trainer, and out of the blue, she launched herself at her and bit the trainer on her breast, and then grabbed her t shirt, refusing to let go. i have to say i was absolutely shocked and mortified. the trainer went off to check herself over (the bite area was already bruising) but said not to worry, and just to fit the muzzle.
i did this, but maiya had obviously now decided she disliked the woman, and wasnt giving up. the rest of the training session was a nightmare, with continuous barking and snarling at the trainer. i had to remove maiya from the training area many times. at the end of the session, the trainer came to me and said it would be best i didnt come back as she couldnt deal with an unpredictable dog in this kind of environment. she suggested i definately see the behaviouralist, and basically hope for the best.

i guess my next question is if anyone living in the gloucestershire area (long shot i know) knows of a good trainer who may be willing to work with this kind of dog? i'll take a look at the book a few of you suggested, and go from there. thanks for all the advice.

jo

Hi I am sorry you are having such problems with your collie,but I do think it is a good idea to have her eyes checked out under sedation although it would be better done by an eye specialist rather than your own vet. Gillian

Hi Saytarn

Did you see your dog's parents, particularly the mother? If she showed similar behaviour it would help if you could tell your next trainer/behaviourist as it may influence any behaviour modification that is put in place. Also, once you get a session booked with trainer/behaviourist it might be a good idea to visit your vet first and explain the situation. The vet might give Megastrol or similar, which calms the dog down. It can only be given in the short term but could give enough time frame for you to work at changing your dogs attitude.

What happened in the training session was what I had feared. The movement of dogs around a dog that is highly charged is often enough to make it 'kick off'. Private sessions might be the only answer but there are no guarantees.

Elaine

Jo, if your interested I can give you details of a 1 to 1 trainer who uses a clicker she is based in Bristol though - if you click on my user name you will get my personal details and you can e-mail me.
ps. she's very good :)

maybe she felt scared walking towards a the trainer and couldn't find a way out hope you find a behaviourist that can help

surely a scared dog given the chance would back off----im sorry but judging by the way this dog thinks nothing of attacking i think id go along with the vet and the other who suggested euthanasia, ---it sounds demented, :( im not trying to upset you but would you ever feel confident or relaxed around her, plus you owe it to others for them to be safe, -i hope im wrong and you can do something for her, but she has major social problems,

Hi Jo - just to say that I know just what you're going through. Owning and managing a 'challenging' dog is really hard. It takes away your confidence like nothing else and generally makes you feel so isolated. I know because I've been there.
Much as we loved our lively terrier, he was an absolute nightmare around people and other dogs. He suffered from fear aggression but the main problem was his unpredictability. We couldn't let him off the lead outside, couldn't walk past another dog, couldn't let anyone pat him - we just couldn't relax for a second for fear of something awful happening.

We went to numerous behaviourists but any improvements were limited and short lived. We wasted quite a lot of money trying to get him right.

It all ended when he died aged 6 from a bad reaction to a booster jab. Although at the time we were heartbroken - with just the two of us he was a very loving dog - in hindsight we felt it was all for the best. We just couldn't have coped with him for another 6 or 7 years.

I truly hope that you manage to turn your situation around. But if, in the end, there is only one option left, please don't feel guilty about it. Sometimes there's only so much you can do....

Best of luck

Joyce

Oh Jo, I really do feel for you. This is a very difficult situation, I really wouldn't take her anywhere without a muzzle it could be a child next time.

I wish you luck, but somehow I don't think this is going to have a happy ending. You have an unpredictable dog there and I would guess there is something going on in her brain which is causing it. I have been there and it is not nice (Mine was a farm bred collie too) although we did find she had epilepsy which triggered the attacks.

You could try contacting the Border Collie Club of Great Britain, I haven't got the number on me at the moment and they might be able to put you in contact with someone in rescue who no doubt would have come across this probem before and hopefully can give you a constructive opinion.

As Joyce says whatever the outcome don't feel guilty it is not your fault.

Sandra

Hi I really do hope you get this sorted out as soon as poss. I too had a dog with problems a gsd male, in the end i had to rehome him to a coupld with no other pets and who could give him one to one attension ( i have 2 other dogs ) he is now happy with no signs of his nasty behaviour that he showed when he was with myself and my family.

good luck to you

after the biting incident the other night, maiya was really sober and demure. think she knew she had seriously done something wrong. took her out on wednesday, and she wasnt too bad - there werent too many people around, and she managed not to bark or go for any of them. took her out again today, and she was dead friendly towards the other dogs, and totally ignored the humans with them. she was even listening to commands, and behaving like a generally good dog! we've got a behaviouralist coming to the house on thursday to take a look at her, and do the things behaviouralists do. hopefully this will help us with a way forward! im also hoping the behaviour all round will steadily improve......i totally sympatise with anyone out there having problems like we have - best of luck everyone :0)

I'm sorry if i have missed it, but you don't say you have had Maiya checked out bu a vet. This is very important, and a reputable behaviourist will not in fact attempt to help a dog who hasn't been checked in this way.

I do hope things go well but you may be in for lots of hard work IF she can be helped.

I hate to say it, but i do agree with Janet - if a dog is unpredictable even after help, and is possibly living a difficult life, it may be kinder to let them go with love rather than to hang on for the sake of the people who own the dog.

I really hope it doesnt come to that, we on here only have a very limited view of what is happening as of course we can't see it for ourselves!

Best of luck

Lindsay

Sorry to hear you have problems.

Reading this, one word springs to mind - boredom.

Collies are exceedingly intelligent and active dogs as you probably know.

If she is working bred her instinct to do just that is probably so strong that being indoors is driving her crazy.

I think someone else sugested agility & i'd give it a really good go, even to competitions. Find her something to do to excercise her brain.

Hope things get better.

Julia & Hooligans

Julia

I have to disagree with you here regarding Agility for this dog. I agree that under usual circumstances this is a brilliant idea for a bored collie. This dog is mega hyper and with the argression link I think agility would send her completely over the top.

To relieve boredom (although I think in this instance it goes deeper than that) controlled obedience excercises would be better suited.

Sandra,

I understand where you are coming from, but don't you think it could be exactly that lack of somewhere to put the energy, means it is all channelling inwards to agression and the rest. Kind of like a child who can't make himself understood, so reverts to tantrums and distruction.

I agree that controlled obedience would be another good outlet.

How much excercise is the dog getting??I appreciate it can't be let off.

My old boy never liked the vet, til I went to one who smelt of farmyards and didn't wear a lab coat.

Has she actually been checked for physical problems?
It's all very well the vet giving behavioural advice, but if there's something physically wrong it wont make a difference.
Have you been trying to do lots and lots of training with her? And if so, has it calmed her down at all?
To be honest, if there is nothing physically wrong, I would suggest that you talk to the vet about combining drugs with a behaviour programme, it can sometimes break the cycle. Once she's been calm in a place that usually stresses her, it's easier to calm down next time. Of course it sounds like it will take a lot more than that in your case, but it might help.
The training is something you can do at home when she's calm, and it will really help to strengthen the bond between the two of you. I daresay with everything going on that bond is going to be really tested, you'll need something positive and something you can get results with quickly.
Why don't you see about getting hold of a heelwork to music video? That's something fun that you can share together in a stress free environment.

Jo

hiya, yeah ive taken maiya to the vets three times now with regards to her behaviour - each time a couple of weeks apart to see if there has been any change after taking the vets advice. the unfortunate thing is.....maiya hates the vet. not the surgery itself, but the vet. ive gone in both with her and without her, and the vet has come outside to meet maiya instead of having to take her in, but its made no difference. the vet suggested many things, most of what we were doing already. another was to have her checked out by a behaviourist (appt next week)
i wanted to take maiya to agility from when she was a young puppy, and was advised to wait till she was 9/10 months old by the agility trainer. id still love to take her, but am not willing to risk it - not until we've worked with her at home and in familiar environments more! besides, she needs to go back to training first i feel - and thats one of the first obstacles lol.
im willing to accept there may be nothing we can do, and the inevitable may have to occur, but id never be able to live with myself if i knew i hadnt tried everything.

thanks for the advice,

jo :0)

Ive just read through this string, and whilst i suspect some of it is boredom, i also think your dog sounds really frustrated..

My initial thoughts are, that you have a dog who has a overriding desire to work, all the time, work work work....but is also intensely frustrated, and highly strung. She cannot calm herself down enough to the point where she can learn and work, but the lack of work winds her up even more... a vicious circle.

Have you thought about using Bach Flower remedies... most ppl have heard of the combination one, Rescue Remedy which is a mix of Impatiens, Star of Bethlehem, Cherry Plum, Rocky Rose, and Clematis flower remedies... but there are also single remedies, which are used to treat various problems.

Ive not been using them long, but ive got a dictionary here, with all the remedies, and what they treat in it.

IF your dog is how i think she is (im probably wrong, but just as an example)... then this lil book suggests.

Impatiens; impatient, nervous, irritable, mental tension through frustration and other mental pressures.
Mimulus; for fear of known things
Vervain; for tenseness
Larch; for lack of confidence.

These remedies have been used on animals successfully (though, as with people, some respond, and some dont)... and if they dont work, they at least wont cause any harm!

If on the other hand, they do help, then that would give you a bit of a chance to get her doing something productive.

Good luck,
Em

thanks for the info re bach flower remedies - i had a friend who used to use them alot, and owned the set of about 90 of them, and i remember them being really good. we were always testing for sensitivities lol. the behaviourist we've got coming next week uses them too, and although she wasnt allowed to specifically recommend them to me, she did talk with me about the possibility of using them.

ive also thought about the idea of using whatever drug it is they use to help calm maiya down alongside behavioural help/training, and will give it a go after ive tried some natural remedies.

thanks,

jo

I'm not sure if this will be of any help but I too had a Border Collie like yours - impossible to house train, chewed her way thoughout the house, obsessive, hated other dogs, chased anything that moved (cars and vans been her favourite) basically had no respect what so ever! I was not a novice hander or owner ( had got her to compete at obedience) She was not in any way or form bored. Yet she just continued and I swaped between persiverence fustrastion and tears of desperation. I continued on her good days with basic obediance training where ever I could, in isolation (tennis courts are a good place as you can shut the gates and prevent any mishaps) The one command I need more than anything else was the drop command because with that in place I was able to drop her from a distance in any situation, this proved invaluble as whilist ever she felt I was in control and she was "working" I was then able to leave the scene or keep in the down stay until the danger zone had passed, she never did any damage whilist in the down stay.
As for my house, we built a kennel and when I went out or to bed she went in to the kennel or the indoor cage, I could go out or to bed and know that she would be still alive when I came back.
On a more hopefully note when she reached 14 months old after her season she did settle and eventually she became the BEST trained dog I have ever had the pleasure to own, yes after a long, hard time she did become a pleasure.

This is the weblink for border collie rescue

http://www.bordercollierescue.org/

I think it would be worth while contacting them (enter the site and then you'll see an email address), and explaining your situation and the problems to them. As much as you love your dog and are trying to do the best things for her, I feel that she needs the experience of someone who is more used to the breed and to the problems. It's probably not your fault, nor the dogs fault, but the combination of her in your home isn't working. I'd at least contact them and talk it over and see what they have to say.

Good luck

hi again.

well, we've had the dog behaviourist round to the house, and she was brilliant.
she suggested walking maiya where we usually do (on a big open field) in a long lunge lead. this way, we still have control, but she gets to run, exercise and play more. we also have the chance to 'reel her in' if anything happens. this advice was alongside loads of other bits she talked to us about, but this particular thing has made an amazing difference.
she is really relaxed on the lunge lead, and has no problems fetching a frisbee etc. and the best thing is, while shes on it - she ignores bikes, people, cars........all the things that were sending her mad before. its obviously because she once again has something she enjoys to focus on. its a pleasure to walk her now, rather than a burden. we're going to do this fo another week, then have the lunge lead trailing, so she can go further, but still be fairly easy to get hold of again. the whole approach has been made more positive as it has been easier to train her on the lunge lead - instead of coming 10 feet away, dropping the frisbee and running away again, we are now able to get her to come to our feet and either lay down, or she puts the frisbee in our hand (she still doesnt drop it too well, but thats another story lol). as shes right at our feet, we have got her used to us slipping our fingers through her collar evertime as the norm. we're hoping this way, she wont be so difficult to get back on the lead when we dont use the lunge anymore.
advice we've had at what to do in the house with visitors, and how we should behave around her has also been good, and things seem to be improving all round - slowly but surely.

thanks for all your advice, and if anyone else in the gloucestershire area is having problems too, i would really recommend the behaviourists we used. they're called mutt manners, and can be found on muttmanners.co.uk

jo

Hi Jo delighted to hear things are working out for you and Maiya at last:) Bet you're looking forward to visiting your vet again with a happy dog and giving him/her the Muttmanners card for future reference!

Hi Jo

So please things are coming together for you both, long may it continue.

Thanks for letting us know.

Sandra

Glad to read that things are improving , and that the behaviourist has been useful. Good for you for not giving up - it takes a lot to seek help when your dogs behaviour goes to pot.

If you haven't already read it I recommend you read 'The Dog Listener' - it's a great story of a journey through these sorts of experiences. It's not a DIY guide though, more like support material for dog owners.

Best Wishes

Nikki