Anyone going to the Wag & Bone Show at Ascot Racecourse tomorrow? I can't get there, so it would be fab if someone could go to the 2pm "lecture" by vet Samantha Scott called 'debunking the dominance myth' and tell me what she says? As you know, this is a topic that stirs discussion on the forum, and another opinion on it would be interesting. Ta ever so.
:)

I'm hoping to Jean - but there's so much to do and so much I want to see (including cheering on Gwen and the Puppy School team in the triathalon) I don't know where I'm going to be - but will certainly take notes if I'm there......

Aw Jeangenie - we're going, but i will be elsewhere at that time - in fact there is so much to do and see and partake in that I really wish it was on for 2 days!!!

Sorry I can't be more helpful.....

Lindsay
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Hi all
Can you take your dog(s) along to it? I would be very interested to go, but only if I could take them. Does anyone know?
Thanks
steph
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(also...what time does it start/finish?)

Yes, you can take your dog/s along (on leads), no problem. It opens at 9.30 am, and finishes about 4.30ish I think.

Thanks so much JG. Hopefully I can go along. oooh, one last question, whats it cost to get in?
Thanks for your help
steph
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We're off in an hour. We only live 10 mins away. I'm going with Steve, the kids and the dogs, by I am going to go my own way when we get there as there is so much to see, I can't imagaine the kids, or Steve sitting through any of the talks.

I'm planning to go to the Dominance talk, although I can't promise to remember anything when I get hgome but I will try and take some notes and references if there are any. As we are getting a pup soon (they are due in just over a week!!!) it is the talk I am most interested in

Steph, it's £10 for adults, £6 for kids and a fiver for the car park

Have a great day

Hayley

Hiya all
so,...who went in the end? It was pretty good, I thought the flyball was funny, poor Reef ( I think his name was), he didnt quite get it right.
Did anyone buy one of those "shedder" things for dogs coats?
Well, thought I would just put a post up to say what a good day it was, thought it could have been nice to have a few more stalls, but it was v.good.
Lots of very cute pups!!! :)

steph
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:)

Hi, I can't believe it, I typed out a 15 min reply and when I clicked Post, it came up Action Cancelled and then the whole Internet went for a while, hope it's not that damned worm!

Anyway, will be briefer this time just in case!

Honey and I had a great day, so so much to see and do, could have done with 2 days as so many things clashed

All the talks I went to were great, Nina Bondarenko gave me loads od ideas for puppy training, Ian Dunbar was brilliant, he held a class with 20 dogs (including us!) for nearly an hour and even gave me direct praise for my technique - praise indeed!!!

The Debunking the Dominance Theory was very interesting, but I thought a little difficult to get your head round. It all seemed to make perfect sense at the time, but now I am home I am a bit confused by it all.

I think it would be well worth getting the book, (I think there is one) but I think I will need to read
it a few times to understand it fully. Basically I think she was saying that 'Dominance' is a word that is used to describe too many situations, and the situations never truly live up to the definition of the word. There are very few truly dominant dog (Samantha Scott reckoned she has seen less than 6 in 30 years, as dominant dogs are dominant over everybody and everything, whereas we say our dogs are dominant if they are aggressive to other dogs (there could be numerous reasons for this including bad experiences and being taught to behave that way by poor handling/training
methods)

She also explained different levels, I suppose, of pack status, including top dogs, aspirers and the laid backs and also the workers, eg herding type dogs, who want to be told what to do, and given something todo, and if they are not will devise their own activities which could wrongly be perceived as Dominance problems.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but I think the book would be worth a read - if it exists - if only for the info on pack status, and why not to meddle with yours, unless you really understand how yours works and that there really is a good reason for soing so, and that you really know how to put it right.

I'm gonna press Post now, fingers crossed, hope it was clearer than mud! :D

Hayley

Thanks Goodness for that!!!

Your post worked, and what's more, I understood your summary of Samantha Scott's theory! So well done, have a gold star!
:)

Thanks Jeangenie, will steal one off my son's chart!!! Let's hope I got it right!

We were there, we were there!!! :) :)

I was thrilled because my other half won a Scurry with Banya and we got a huge rucksack full of goodies. It was great. I am trying to encourage him (other half) because although he does love dogs, he isn't so interested in a whole day at a show ... but he did really enjoy himself including the Ian Dunbar lecture.

We stayed behind to grab his autograph and he did a couple of things with Banya! He was really nice. Chaliepud, must have seen you without knowing as we watched most of the lesson you were in in the Teach Me ring. One thing he kept reiterating, and which i so agree with, is that we never reward our dogs enough when they are just "being good".....ie relaxing in the presence of other dogs etc ... I have always tried to do this, it's one of the things i believe in most; but after listenign to him now feel i probably don't do it enough so "must try harder" ;)

I do like him - he is heavily involved now in a dog shelter near his home in Californian, and has set up several innovative schemes for the rescue dogs, some of which are very aggressive. He talked a lot about classical conditioning and about how he believes we should feed our dogs their meal out on walks, esp. if they have a problem such as aggression because doing this helps them associate other dogs with primary reward. He turned his own Malamute round this way too.

We took part in the 2 minute Sit, think they got over 500 dogs so have got into the Guiness Book of Records.

The great thing was that so much fun, information and behavioural info was totally free - after the £10 anyway - and you could do what you liked! I enjoyed seeing Gwen Bailey, and Sarah Whitehead with the children .... I bought a lot of shopping too......;)

Has Samantha Scott written a book about dominance, or was she referring to one already out? If so, would it be the Coppinger one?

Lindsay

Everyone seems to have had a great time! I'll look forward to maybe seeing all you lot in piccies in Dogs Today mag in the next few months..... ;) :)

My friends had their photos taken by the Dogs Today photographer with their 2 beardies :)

Lindsay

Sounds really interesting, I was referred to Sam Scott by my vet and found her really good. If anyone finds out if the book does exist can you post details as I'd really like to read it
Anne

Hi Lindsay, I was in the far corner (not far from the naughty Jack Russell!) with my brindle Xbreed, I was told to get her to jump up and sit down when told and she laid down instead, but he said it was good that I didn't get cross with her, just made her dit, then give her the treat, I thought he did a great class, really glad I had the chance to join it - we also did the 2 min sit in the Teach Me Ring. What dogs do you have Lindsay?

Not sure about the book, thought I had seen one in the Crosskeys mag, on my way out now, will try and find it later, if she hasn't written one, she should!

Glad other people had a good day too, I thought it was brilliant

Hayley

It's good to have professionals emerging from the woodwork and saying that "true" dominance is very rare. It seems to have become a convenient label to attach to normal dog misbehaviour which can be sorted with good basic training.
:)

Hayley

If i was facing the ring, was that you in the far corner (which would have been on my top left.....?)

If so i thought the dog was black and tan but perhaps i need an eye test :D

We have a Belgian Shepherd bitch, red with black mask and tail tip :)

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay

We were on the left near the top, just before the between the Goldie and the young Dalmatian (which in turn was next to a sable and black GSD cross that was a bit unhappy and kept trying to pull its owner out of the ring!)

Honey is definitely a stripey brindle, a sort of cross betweena boxer and Staffie

Hayley

I agree Jeangenie, and even more so since listening to Samantha Scott. I suppose it is the easiest way to counter opinions on your dogs behaviours, "he/she is dominant". I was very lucky that Samantha answered a question on one of the problems I have with Honey, it was great to hear that it is a dog trait and that it is an 'unwanted reaction' rather than an aggressiveness problem - not to say it cannot be lessened with the correct training - but it is not a 'dominance' issue.

It is too easy to just believe what a trainer/fellow walker/champdogger (!) says without really thinking about it at all - after all wouldn't it be good if none of the unwanted behaviours our dogs exhibit were our fault!!

I must have seen you, Chaliepud, but just can't get the old brain cells working ..... !!!

Glad you had fun anyway :)

Lindsay

Its so unfair, i had to work but i really wanted to go!! :-(

Hiya
It was agreat day, Cas and I won the first scurry race and got a backpack full of goodies :-) And we came 2nd in the agility, just mssing out on a hamper full of goodies by 0.1 of a second. But we came 3rd in the Pup Idol final :-D. And she was my substitute dog, Diz is laid up so couldn't do it so I decided to give Cas a go for a laugh. :-) The debunking the dominance myth was very interesting and very true, if we'd have heard that a few months ago Diz would have been straight off to the vets.
Gina

Hi Gina,

I'm interested in your comment re dominance and vets......... Are you saying that Dizzie became agressive before her spondolysis (?) was diagnosed? Didn't Sam Scott say 20% of her behaviour cases were down to physical reasons and if you'd known this you'd have taken Dizzie to the vets sooner?

Thanks

Fran

We went too (me, my other half and Os) and I thought that it was a great day! I wanted to go to the 1pm lecture about dogs, sex and food (reading your dogs expression and what motivates a dog) but I didn't get to it :-(

Did anyone catch that one and can tell me what was said?

Thanks
Jayne

Yes. Dizzy became agressive towards Cas, it started in April and gradually got worse and worse, she started being agressive towards all other dogs and just launching herself on Cas. We thought it was a 'dominance' problem and so did friends I talked to. We took her to the vet in July after she had really gone for Cas, we had had enough and it was the final straw. If we had seen her talk in May then it would have clicked as we couldn't work a turning point out, why she suddenly turned and as she wasn't aggressive to us we just thought there was a dominance problem between the two, I spoke to others who had dominance problems with two bitches. Now she has had her op to remove the swollen disc which was causing her pain, and she is a lovely dog to have again and not once shown any agressive tendencies towards Cas.
Gina

It gets me cross. The people who go on and on about "dominance" without seeing the animals concerned can cause a lot of harm.

I'm so pleased she got the right treatment in the end Gina :-)

I'm really glad the dogs are both OK now too; it is so easy to misconstrue aggression and for people to just "assume" it is "dominance"..... esp. if the so called aggression is directed towards one other dog and not towards anyone or anything else.

Lindsay
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