I have read about the supplements needed before and after the birth. What I wanted to know is can you only get them from the vet or can you go elsewhere?

hello there
I have never suplimented any of my bitches before or during pregnancy,
I have never had a problem with any puppies or the bitch.
I have only increased their food intake{which is a very good quality food}
Now some people/vets say that over supplimenting the bitch can cause problems{cleft palate in puppies is said by some sources to be caused by too much of a certain vitamin.sorry cant remember which one}
If your bitch is fed on a good quality food there should be no need for any supliments. only increased amounts . HTH
I do know how you feel wanting to do the best for your your bitch and the unborn puppies

I agree with Emma - if you are feeding a good quality complete food, then there is no need to supplement a bitch's diet with extra vitamins etc & some can indeed cause more harm than good. I have also read that excess Vitamin A (I think?) can contribute to cleft palates & research seems to indicate that supplementing an in-whelp bitch with calcium can predispose her to developing eclampsia. The only "additive" I give is folic acid as there is some evidence that this can help prevent birth defects such as cleft palates. Some breeders also swear by raspberry leaf tablets during pregnancy - can't comment on that as I don't use them.

Would be interested to hear if other posters supplement their bitches & what with

Jane

something in the back of my mind says rasberry leaf is to induce labour but I'm really not sure on that. I seem to remember something about it from when one of my female human friends was pregnant. Does anyone else know the answer to this ???

Raspberry Leaf. (Also helps with pelvic muscles,uterus and can help reduce the risk of haemorrhage apparently).

Thanks for the link Leigh. That is something else I've learnt on here to add to my growing list :D
Sara

i justed rasberry leaf on my flatcoat, you cannot use it untill the 5th week of pregnants and one week aftre the birth,wispa had 10 pup in4 hours without problam.

Jane three weeks before pups are due I give a small carton of natural yogurt each day to help prevent fading puppy syndrome mari

Mari,
What exactly is fading puppy syndrome? I ask because back in the mists of time, I bred yorkies and had an entire litter die. The vet just shrugged his shoulders and said "it happens"
After that I swore I would never breed my bitch again. I didn't, and in fact, after she died at the ripe old age of 17 10 years ago, I was so upset that I swore I'd never get a dog again!
I still miss her. I am getting a puppy this week - not for breeding though - purely as a family pet!

Well now this is myworst nightmare trying to put on screen what is in my head but i will try. Sharon .fading puppy syndrome is caused by a bacteria in the vagina of the bitch it is the bacteria staphylocci and stretococci and B.H.S , it is a contagious decease and all bitches and dogs should be swabbed before mating, if found the decease can be cured with synulox , this is a remarkable antibiotic and seems to eradicate the problem from bitches that have had fading puppies . It is a bacterial imbalance which causes the decease. one bacteria becomes more prominent than the other . now . when this happens, the pups are born and appear healthy , within hours of the birth they become weak, stop suckling have muscle spasms, stiff extended limbs and heart seizures the puppies look flat and the bellies are a deep violet colour. (traumatising stuff )whole litters just fade away in a few days. natural yogurt has this bacteria in . and when taken helps to balance the imbalance if it is present. your vet should have done swabs and treated your little yorkie and perhaps you would have got your puppies if he had . hope this answers your question somewhat . mari

beacuse of this,i put my girls on antibiotic for the first 7 to 10 days of the season when they are going to be mated ,plus i ask the bitch owners who are bring their bitch to my stud dog to be put on them as well,out of five mating to my dog only 1 bitch didnot take and that she didnot go on them.but the next season she went on them and she had 10 pup,so she may have had a infection on the first mating and we didnot know,the bitchs donot have to be swab if they go on synulox,most vets will give them out if you ask them,beacuse of the reason for breeding,i will not have a bitch come to my dog if she has not gone on them

terri

This is interesting as I have been doing some reading on this topic recently. Many vets actually are against giving bitches antibiotics routinely prior to mating simply because antibiotics are powerful drugs which interfere with a healthy immune system. There seems to be growing opinion that over-use of antibiotics is not a good thing for humans or animals. There was an online seminar on canine reproduction recently given by an eminent US specialist & this point of routine swabbing/dosing with antibiotics came up. The point was made that all healthy bitches have bacteria in their vaginal tracts (strep, staph, e coli, pastuerella, and mycoplasma) & the fact that swabbing reveals these bacteria just means they are normal! This specialist was opposed to giving antibiotics pre-breeding, saying

"Putting bitches on antibiotics pre-breeding actually makes them more prone to infectious disease by killing normal organisms, especially when we use the GOOD drugs like Baytril. Occasionally, we may see a bitch with an infection... but there will be signs of that infection - redness, abnormal discharge, smelling - just like if you have an infection in your ear, you're not going to not know it. Bacteria does not equal infection"

If anybody wants to read the whole seminar, you can find it here

I seem to remember Steve Dean saying much the same thing in Dog World a while ago.

I'm not saying you're wrong Terri - just that there are vets out there with very different views :-)

Jane

Interesting article :-) thanx for the link Jane

Thanks for the info Mari!
Jane, this is indeed a very interesting discussion. My husband was in hospital last year and picked up both Staph. and E.Coli - always knew he was a dog!
Seriously though, I suppose it is possible that a bitch could pick it up during whelping in much the same way that humans do after an op. and pass it on to the pups.
As a matter of interest, both these bacteria can cause a nasty form of food poisoning as well - trust me, I'm a chef!

There will always be questions re antibiotics, and there is overuse of them. a swab should show up if there is an imbalance of the bacteria , as i stated on my first post it is not the bacteria that causes the decease its when one bacteria becomes more prominent than the other that the problem arises .Many years ago I owned bred and showed rough collies for a good number of years I really did have to do my homework on this ,rough collies had a high incidence of fading puppy so I was in a need to know situation . I sat with my friend watching her litter of 12 fade away one by one it was heartbreaking . I myself never got a pup from my champion bitch I mated her to the dog of my choice and all went well . three weeks later she became ill went to vet etc cutting a long story short, the dog had the decease .she lost puppies and her womb ,as it had also as a result of the bacteria progressed to closed pyometro. sooo . had i been more knowledgable, I would have asked for a recent health check on dog and avoided all this trauma . The dog got the infection from a bitch he mated that also lost the whole litter to fading puppy. So now I have swabs done and if it is there then I can deal with it or choose not to go ahead with the mating mari

havent had time to read the link you posted jane i have it on file and am looking forward to it many thanks mari

I've got a litter now from a bitch that lost all but one of her first litter to Beta Haemolytic Streptoccocal. It was heartbreaking watching 8 pups fade & die at 2/3 days old then hard work hand-rearing the one survivor.
It made it even more difficult being told by a vet that it was just 'one of those things' and it was only when I asked around that another breeder said she'd read an article that listed off the syptoms I'd mentioned. That litter was born on 2/6/99 and its taken this long to get another litter from her as she missed twice after that litter before I found out about the BHS and then had her swabbed with a result of 'Profuse growths of BHS'. A course of antibiotics (though it had to be the right ones cos it was resistant to some) cleared it up, only for her to have picked up yet another infection when swabbed again before being mated so yet another course of AB's.
I feed live natural yoghurt when they're on AB's to replace the natural gut flora but wouldn't have thought it could possibly have done anything for the BHS on its own???
I'm also now very much in favour of having bitches swabbed before breeding and would advise anyone having problems getting a bitch in whelp or getting a viable litter from her to have her swabbed.
It could have saved our puppies and all the stress and hassle plus 2 and a half wasted years from an all too short breeding life.

Nixtev. you are right about the yogurt not working on its own . what i should have said was to help stop fading puppy syndrome . I see you have also suffered the trauma of a lost litter as well . it is so upsetting. and if you have gone through this you will never want to again .so you take the necessary measures to prevent it . To be forewarned is to be forearmed best wishes .mari

Its certainly not an experience I would want to repeat :-(
Before that, I used to be able to relax a bit more after the initial birth, but am now constanty worried that something is going to go wrong. The bitch didn't have enough milk this time, so ended up having to help them with bottles.
At least they're all doing fine now though - its at the permanent puppy-pancake stage now! ;-)

Sharon what breed of puppy are you getting . i wish you well with it . mari

Lhasa apso Mari, can't register it as the father wasn't registered - see old post on unregistered puppies. It doesn't matter to me though as it is going to be a family pet. My sister has the bitch and she has a wonderful nature. The pups are all very friendly. After my fading puppy litter I'm not interested in breeding any more - too much heartbreak.

Im happy for you they are a smart and glamourous little dog . . I do remember the post now . .has sister got homes for all the pups . I was wondering about that person who did not want to pay for pup is she still getting a pup...mari

No Mari, that awful woman is not getting a puppy. My sister refused to let her have him, even though she offered to pay in the end. She only wanted to use it as a 'fashion accessory' anyway. That particular pup is going to live with a good friend of mine. My sister has found good homes for all of the puppies. Thanks for being interested.

well done to sister im sure such lovely dogs will be much cherished and thanks for letting me know . amazing how some things stick in your mind mari

i supplement before with folic acid tablets just 1/2 a day this hopefully stops Cleft Pallates as i had them before i used this and not one since, a old breeder of 30+ years and hes also a Dr swears by
them.
and also i have a big bottle of calo cal-d in as bullies r prone to eclampsia also a little bit when they first start in labour is supposed to get things going.
my vet is great i can get anything i want from him prior to whelping he even gave me some Oxytocin last time to use if i needed it....
great vet shame hes 40mins drive from me if i could id move in his house (i bet its big enough)
vicki

I also have a vet that will leave you well provided for in case of emergency or he is out of reach. I am always saying an emergeny pack is vital and because i have mine many a puppy has been saved , most problems happen through the night in my case anyway ,or always when the vet or doctor is on a day off . my emergency pack is an injection for eclampsia and some antibiotic drops in phials for puppies. should the need arise just enough to hold on untill vet can get to you mari

I supplement with folic acid during pregnancy and for about 3 months before mating, however this last litter for the first time I had a cleft. A vet I was talking to in the last few days recommended Biotin to prevent clefts, however she could not remember the dosage. I will find out and try it next time. I also start using Calc-d starting the day the puppies are born.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Do dogs suffer from Neural Tube Defects as well as humans then? Or does folic acid do something different in dogs? I've never heard of it being used in animals.

Fiona

nor did I fiona . but I can see how it would work . isent it amazing just when you think you have a little knowledge about dogs. something else comes up and you realise you know very little. ah well as i live and learn mari

breeders i know swear that when theyve used rasberry leaf that the bags around the pups are much stronger than normal, having just lost 3 that didnt manage to stay in their bags until delivered i'll definitley try it next time, has anyone else noticed this thats used them,

What is Raspberry leaf used for in dogs? I know that pregnant humans are advised it can aid delivery - but not to take it too early as it can bring on early labour.............

Fran

Fran check out the link I posted above titled Raspberry Leaf :-)

A neural tube defect is a birth defect occurring in the brain or spinal cord (backbone). There are over 54 disorders involving the neurological system listed in the genetic book that I am currently researching through. I did find a website that referred to neural tube defects in dogs. One listed for dogs and horses was Wobbler's.

Hi Sierra, I had two Wolfhound pups born once that both had spina bifida. The rest of the litter was fine. Could it be related in anyway?
I always give the bitches Raspberry leaf tablets, and have them swabbed before mating. I usually have them scanned too, as Wolfhounds can have very big litters. If this seems to be the case, I usually give a little extra calcium, shortly before whelping date.
Just an interesting fact to add to this thread, Wolfhounds are one of the few breeds who must not go over 63 days before whelping. If they do, there is every chance that placental seperation will occur. Hence sometimes the need for selective surgery

Both of the sources that I have already entered into the data base says that the mode of inheritance for spina bifida is underdetermined and lists a group of dogs that it is more often seen in -- the Irish Wolfhound was not one of the breeds, though there were seven other skeletal disorders associated with the Wolfhound.

I've never had any problems with Raspberry leaf tablets. Not sure about the relationship of calcium and spina bifida -- want me to do some more research?

Hi Sierra,

The only things that can help prevent Spina Bifida are Folic Acid and Vitamin B12, calcium has no effect at all. In humans it is impossible to have TOO much folic acid or Vit B12, the body absorbs what is needed and then the rest is passed out in the urine.

I'm not sure about spina bifida in dogs, but there's nothing I don't know about neural tube defects in humans (family obstetric history).

Fiona

Hi Sierra, If you wouldnt mind doing some more research, I would be really interested. I know how busy you are so there is no rush, but it would be interesting. Another point of interest ( and upset) for your research. I was given a Norwegian import bitch, and I was so thrilled and thought I was so lucky to have these new blood lines. After the problems arose I spoke to her breeders, and they had never heard of this particular problem in their country, and I can find nobody in this country, in Wolfhounds at least who had ever come across this problem before. This was the problem, she whelped 13 puppies, quickly and easily after a normal pregnancy. The story is to long to print here but the general facts were all pups appeared normal at birth until they tried to suckle. They could not bring their front legs forward or upward. Basically in laymans terms, their shoulder blades were back to front, only two pups of the thirteen were normal , eleven had to be pts. They were both dogs, and were castrated before I found them homes. Any ideas as to what this was?

No idea, but I'll do some skeletal defect research for you and see what I can come up with. If I haven't gotten it to you in the next few days, will you please prod me again? I sometimes get so engrossed that I forget where I am in things to do.

folic acid is said to help in the prevention of a variety of birth defects including cleft palates as well as neural tube defects in humans .
Rhodesian Ridgebacks can be born with a condition of Dermoid Sinus which is a Neural tube defect so there is no reason why other breeds can't have them as well.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Hi I beg to differ about the post that mentioned that if there is an infection present that there would be signs. In my experience a BHS infection shows no signs of the dog being unwell at all, and just manifests itself in infertility, re-absorbtion of puppies or abortion. I thought that puppy fade was due to a herpes like infection (strep) that is in the vagina and the puppies pick it up on their way down the birth canal. I thought that could be prevented by giving anti-biotics, probably Ceporex, from about day 54 of pregnancy (so that if they whelp at 59 days they will have had protection for at least 5 days) and continue til the pups are about 5 days old. This would also help the bitch if she picked up any other infection during the whelping process. If I had lost a puppy/litter through puppy fade, Imy vet would definately put her on AB's all the way through the season til about day 20 or when she is completely back to normal, and then the short course before/after whelping. I would also do these two courses of AB's at her next and subsequent seasons, if you intend to breed from her again at some time in the future.

Hi WL

I think you're talking about my post - it wasn't my opinion, I was quoting the opinion of an eminent canine reproduction specialist from the US - if you want to read more, have a look at the link I gave. This guy seems to be very experienced so I just thought his views merited a mention :-)

I was actually not really talking about the practice of giving antibiotics to a bitch who has had past problem litter(s) but that of routinely giving antibiotics to normal, healthy bitches who have no history of problems - quite different don't you think? Certainly my own vet would not prescribe antibiotics in the latter case though it seems some do :-)

Jane

Hi Jane
I read dr hutches article He is a wonderfully knowledgeable man but not infallible. all opinions are up for debate, and each expert thinks he is the right one. this is one part I questioned Q.isent it true that an ecoli infection can be passed on to the puppies in the birth canal, causing fading puppy syndrome and the loss of a whole litter. Answer from dr hutch.In normal healthy puppies no , think of the lions surounding the antelope looking for the weak ones if a puppy is stressed unhealthy then the e,coli can flare up but that is not because the ecoli was left there its because we allowed the puppies to be unhealthy . I feel this statement is not true he says we cannot sterilise vaginal tracts because of air passing through. maybe but no way is it impossible to clear up infection if found ,so if he doesent give antibiotics to clear infections then it is only true to say its his fault that the pups are unhealthy in the first place. he is very smart and loves to talk and as i said a fountain of knowledge but in this and the next part im sorry I disagree. next part

Q.can these bacteria be transmitted to the stud dog

his reply the male has all of these organism, so no they are not contagious
well i have posted that some yrs ago because of an infected stud dog my friend lost a litter and i lost unborn pups and it was proven that the stud dog had an e coli infection he passed on to bitch and they in turn passed it to the unborn pups and it killed them, how can he then justify not prescribing antibiotics , plus that was many years ago when we did not have an immunity to antibiotics and they were still working . mari

Hi Mari

I quite agree - no expert is infallible :-) I read it as Dr Hutch trying to stress that there is a difference between the presence of bacteria in the vaginal tract (normal for all bitches) & an infection ie bacteria does not equal infection. Cell analysis presumably differentiate between "normal" levels of bacteria (which don't need treatment) & "abnormal" levels which do. I don't think he was saying that infections should not be treated, at least that's not how I interpreted it :-) I'm sure there will be other "experts" who disagree with him but it's good to look at different views isn't it, particularly these days when antibiotic use (or over-use) is a "hot" topic in both animal & human medicine

Jane

Hi Jane, I quite agree that healthy bitches with no past problems should not be given AB's routinely. I was just concerned that people might think that a bitch with some sort of infection that might prevent or compromise pregnancy, would show signs of illness or discharge/infection, which is not necessarily so.

A friend had a bitch who kept "missing" and I suggested she took her bitch to my vet for a cell culture at the very beginning of her next season. The bitch showed absolutely no sign or illness or infection at all, she was in the peak of health. The culture showed she had a BHS infection which responded to Ceporex, was cell screened again at 14 days and was by then clear of the infection and went on to be mated that day and had a normal sized healthy litter, after 3 misses. :-)

Hi WL

Yes I see your point :-) I have had a slightly different experience - we had a bitch who missed several times & I lost count of the breeders who told us she must have an infection & we should put her on antibiotics. Even when nothing out of the ordinary was found when we had her tested, these same breeders were all saying that we should put her on antibiotics anyway, just in case. We didn't & instead tried hormone treatment suggested by our vet - she is now expecting her second litter, her first being normal in every way.

I agree with you - if an infection is detected, then yes, ABs should be given but if there's no infection, then there's no need for ABs. I think a lot of breeders have this idea that ABs are harmless & its perfectly ok to use them on a "just in case" basis -the same with people who got to the doctor & ask for ABs if they have a cold :-)

Jane

i started some thing about abs,and other thing i do after my dog has gone to stud is wash him in and out with a syringe with dilute warm water with a mixer of pevidine scube this helps to stop cross infections,

i forgot to said i give both the bitch or stud that are going to be mated,vit e at 1000gm for the first 13 day,

terri

Thanx to everyone, I've learned alot!